Thanks, Mr. W, great thread. This is how I see it. When I communicate my feelings about a particular issue or something someone has done that upsets me, they are my feelings. The feelings belong to me, the behavior belongs to them ... well, how I behave in response of course, belongs to me. If someone gets angry with me that I told them how I feel and says I'm trying to control them, then has a DJ or AO, that belongs to them.

I desire for us to discuss it and reach a win-win agreement where we're both happy. I can't make someone discuss and work to a positive resolution with me as that choice belongs to them (this is where I need to work on SD)... but, I won't be happy about it and I can ultimately choose to leave the relationship if someone doesn't care about my needs.

Is there a pdf for POJA agreements? We were both thinking it would be helpful for us to have a form we use for negotiations and keep them in a binder.

If anyone knows of one, will you please post the link? Thanks!

H and I had some open, honest talks tonight and we POJA some things we're both going to do to avoid future LB's of AO in particular. One of the things we agreed to do is to purchase that device - I can't recall the name or where to get it.... I think it's some sort of biofeedback device that Dr. Harley suggests.

Does anyone have the name? Thanks!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000E...=1395907995&sr=8-1&pi=SX200_QL40

Here's the one we bought.

Thanks, DQ, I'll check into that one. How helpful was it and how long did it take to learn to reduce your own stress levels to prevent conflict?

H birthday is this week. There is some history of his DD25 being priority over me, especially where plans together are concerned. I sincerely want them to have a good relationship, too; but, I do want to be priority in his life.

Per MB, how are we supposed to handle scheduling time on birthday weeks? Should it be per JA or does the birthday person kind of have more weight in deciding?

Note: We did not get UA schedule done last weekend (yes, I realize this would have prevented this problem) so we do not have anything 'set', although even when we do have a schedule, if we have conflict, sometimes, H withdraws and goes dark/cancels. I'm working on learning what I can do so I am his safest place and hope he will also honor me by becoming the same for me.

My understanding is that he wants to meet with his dd25 for lunch or dinner either on his actual birthday or for a couple hours to have lunch during our weekend together. I suggested she join us for family birthday celebration (already planned for tomorrow) and maybe they could also meet early next week for a father-daughter lunch.

While I want to be first priority in his life and feel hurt when I come behind his dd25, it is his birthday and historically, we've left it up to the birthday person to decide what they want to do. I'm confused about how to figure out a win-win here and want to make the best choices, but we are so new to MB and I have so much to learn.

Any insight from the vets about how to handle this the MB way so we build a fabulous marriage for both of us?

Here is where Dr. Harley talks about it.

How to Negotiate When You Are an Emotional Person

Everything in marriage is subject to the POJA, even what happens on the individual's birthday. If both spouses are enthusiastic, then go ahead with the plan. If one spouse is not enthusiastic, then the default is to not do anything. regardless of the specialness of the particular day in question.

After you and your H schedule the UA time, then you and he would negotiate any conflicts, such as what he wants to do for his birthday. No one spouse ever has more weight in the negotiations.

The reason no spouse is ever to have more weight than the other in making decisions is to avoid making love bank withdrawals. The goal of any conflict is not to resolve it, necessarily; it's to stay in love. (which my H and I found quite revolutionary thinking when we first understood this!)

Thanks for your response... this is all so new and confusing as we are in such early recovery right now.

We've had about 1 hour of UA time so far this week - last night. We did make plans yesterday to have family birthday lunch tomorrow and UA weekend together, starting tonight. He texted me this morning after our phone call that he made new plans, will not be spending his birthday with any family and will be away and unplugged until further notice.

Thanks for responses on the BioFeedback device - I ordered it.

As many of you have already seen on my H's thread, it's been a difficult couple of weeks. The criticism and disrespectful responses on his thread hit him hard. He emailed an apology for part of what happened last weekend and when I told him I'd made a decision that I can only move forward with three conditions: I'm priority behind God or not at all, 100% on board with MB, no lingering or looking back at other women and all his SF comes from me alone, he agreed and we decided he would return home; however, this weekend has been incredibly stressful.
[list][*]We haven't had agreement to work together on EP's or JA since he arrived; just as I'm needing the EP's we never completed after d-day so I feel safe with him and can begin the process of recovery even more, he still views my needs in these areas as excessive/unnecessary.
[*]I learned on Saturday that over the last two weeks, he has not only lingered looking at women in ads/swimsuits on TV (watched TV at hotel room alone against his own EP), lingered lusting on a few women in public and masturbated again - no apology.

I've been very upset about his choices the last couple weeks and after this weekend, I'm drained, exhausted and weary of fighting for our marriage that I can't recover alone. Today, he was upset that he feels controlled, feels I am in charge and he doesn't have enough freedom.

So, I gave him complete freedom to live an independent life. I also opened up the controls on our Mac laptop to include apps, all websites (adult and otherwise... whatever he wants).

Unfortunately, this is not a marital lifestyle that works for me, nor in which I can remain his wife.

Does this mean you are going into plan B?

AM

Isn't plan B to protect a spouse's feelings from further destruction to save the marriage? I don't see a way back from this right now, as he's said he isn't fully committed to MB and I don't want to be with a man who isn't enthusiastic. I realize any hope of recovery is rapidly being destroyed, but we don't have the funds to live separately.

That's absurd. You're staying in marital hell as what, room mates? Taking a front row set to his virtual infidelity? That's crazy. That is not happy or healthy. That is not how the human heart or mind works.

Go into Plan B. Yes it does give the best chance for marital reocvery, but for others, like me, it saves you from an uncaring marriage and seals the door tight so you can make a new life without being harmed by the old one.

I would rather have slept on the street than continue to live with my unremorseful husband. I would not be where I am today if I had done that. I would be a wreck.

I've never come across anyone who had to live with their ex spouse eternally due to lack of funds! People who have their own income live off that and homemakers see a lawyer to get maintainance.

Why is it you are so hard up?

Things are changing here.

H's LB's and EN's realization:
First, I had some realizations from the posts on H's thread (iRecover), in which someone (I think it was IndieGirl) posted that anyone who is upset by criticism likely has a very strong EN for Admiration. As I was processing this, a couple more things led me to a deeper understanding of this and I also realized that he has likely been deeply hurt at times when I am hurt and have come across to him as being critical. So, I'm working on that.

Medical Challenges:
Recovery continues to be bumpy at times, with multiple medical challenges complicating things for us both (not to mention my DD14 has significant medical challenges). Sleep is a major problem for us both, which isn't helping anything, as we're both beyond exhausted.
Me:
Menopause has led to horrible lack of sleep for me... really bad - just can't sleep a full night. I recently saw my doc, who switched me to something else to address this problem, as the prior plan just wasn't cutting it. For the first time in weeks, I finally got about 7 hours of sleep last night. I need more and hope this continues longer than the one night, but it's much better than what I was getting and I'm sure I'll feel better as I get more sleep.
Him:
For H, he does have depression, OCD and anxiety and we both agree that his depression is not well managed right now. He's also having significant sleep problems, which exacerbate the depression issues. We learned that his sleep apnea has worsened this past year and they haven't been able to correct it with recent changes (and he has significant limb jerking interfering with sleep for us both during the night, too); so, he will have a sleep study next week and will re-visit his psych about his depression once his sleep issues are resolved.

Revelation H had:
Interestingly, though, we've had a rough couple of weeks and Monday evening did not go well at all, nor did our morning appt with counselor on Tuesday and I anticipated he would be very upset and withdrawn by Tuesday evening. BUT, when he came home Tuesday night, he did not need to go right to sleep for a nap, was engaged with me/us and not irritable at all. In fact, he was pleasant and last night, he said he realized that he had been unable to identify the issues within himself that were causing him to feel unhappy and looking externally, and as a result, blaming me for how he felt. He noted that he now realized there are internal issues that are causing his negative mood and more critical, withdrawn episodes. Let's just say this is a very significant realization.

The difference? He drank coffee. This morning, he stopped back by the house after some labs (and another cup of coffee), he gently put his hand on my arm and told me that he feels hopeful about us. I asked what changed and he said he realized that the caffeine is helping him feel better.

On the surface, this seems like a simple solution - drink coffee, right?! Unfortunately, problem is that it exacerbates him twitching/jerking in his sleep any short term benefit is quickly lost as neither of us sleeps well... which goes back to exacerbating his depression, not to mention my patience, as it feels more overwhelming to me, too, when I'm so tired. Sigh... so, while it can't be a long term solution, it's a significant realization that he can share with his health care team and counselor, who can hopefully, help to resolve this in a more lasting way that won't adversely impact our sleep.

MB Lessons:
We've completed the intro lessons and are just starting the LB lessons of SD, DJ and AO. We listened to the SD audio last night and will start those readings, etc next.

I have a question - does part of this paragraph come across to anyone as a DJ? I can't say I felt encouraged by it, but this one is more subtle and I want to run it by your 'filters'. I'd appreciate honest feedback, either way, please. Thanks!

That is a DJ. It is judging the person for not being able to do something as simple as looking in the dishwasher. It's a big put down.

It would be better worded this way:
It bothers me when you leave dishes in the sink when the dishwasher is empty.

Yes, that's somewhat disrespectful. It's disrespectful to state that a particular task is easy - maybe it's easy from one spouse's perspective, but hard from the other spouse's perspective. If I personally think it's hard, I'm not wrong.

Also, I know my wife and I would both be likely to perceive the "I don't understand this" as disrespectful. It's borderline, at least in this context. Kind of like saying "Your choice makes no sense, so I can't understand it."

The respectful way to complain about this would be:
"It bothers me when you leave dirty dishes in the sink."
and
"I'd like it if you'd check the dishwasher and put dirty dishes there instead of the sink when possible."
or
"How would you feel about checking the dishwasher to see if dirty dishes can be put there?"

I don't know if the paragraph was written by you or written by your husband, but either way I would say it's got some disrespect in it that can be filtered out.

He wrote it to me in an email, Markos. It upset me and as I read it again to understand why, I felt like it was a disrespectful 'dig'; although, more subtle than most of them are. The DJ's are very difficult for me. He has often said he doesn't see them as disrespectful and thinks I'm being too sensitive and turns it around, saying that I'm the disrespectful one, so I appreciate the feedback.

He did follow it with another paragraph - this is the entire email:


I responded asking if he notices things I do to help at home and that it would be very helpful to me if he would eliminate LB's, and replace them with noticing and offer appreciation and encouraging feedback. I followed with: