But then you'll only get his side of the story. And he's going to spin it in his favor, of course.

Dr. Harley recommends finding out all one can about a potential spouse before marrying. We are to get to know his parents, siblings, friends, and find out from ex-wives what they can tell about him. That way a woman has a good picture from others points of view of what she is getting herself into.

I think it's pretty interesting that your husband would find your questioning his ex-wives a betrayal, but not consider his treatment of his wife a betrayal of his wedding vows to love, honor, and cherish. Oh, well...

Anyway, Marriage Builders about creating a plan to restore love in a marriage. It's also about creating a plan in the event of spousal neglect.

So it would be a really good idea to find out what's really going in your marriage:

1.) Install a keylogger onto your H's computer/phone. If you can't do it, hire someone who can. You will then have the real truth.

2.) If you can get in touch with his ex-wives, call them and ask them if they would mind sharing with you why they got divorced from your husband.

This pieces of information will help you know what's really going on and the kind of man you married.

There are lots of reasons why women stay trapped in a bad marriage where they are unhappy. I was one of them for a long while. I was young with a child. Later on it was because I was young, with a child, and living overseas. After that it was all those reasons, plus I didn't have a college degree and didn't know how to support myself.

Later it was because I was older - in my forties. Later on it was because I was fifty. There was always some reason/excuse to avoid doing something proactive

Then, into this soup of reasons why I couldn't leave my then-nasty, rude husband who didn't take my feelings into account at all and rarely cared for or about me, I was told by the church that I was supposed to submit and forgive. Sigh....I stayed. I stayed and stayed through dishonesty, porn, masturbation, being called bad names because I was upset at his dishonesty over finances, independent decisions, and finally a second affair. If I had found MB years ago, I know what Dr. Harley would have suggested to me:

He would have suggested that I do a great Plan A, set myself up financially, even if it took some time, write him a love letter, then separate. If he wanted me back and agreed to make the necessary changes, then great. We'd have a great marriage. And if he refused, then all I would have lost was a selfish man and a loveless marriage.

But I know I would have dithered and found a thousand excuses not to leave.

The only reason my marriage is so wonderful today is because we both followed the plan laid out by MB. If he had not agreed to do so, there was simply no way I would have been able to stay with the kind of man he was.

What do you want to do, Bluebird? You have received guidance that Dr. Harley would have suggested and you have found reasons to not do as suggested. What do you want from Marriage Builders?

Long way thanks for providing more clarity. Actually thanks to everyone.

I'm going to e-mail the Harleys. I will also ask H about his porn use and look into installing a key logger.

Being here has given me much needed perspective on my situation. My tendency always is to blame myself, get frightened, and then think of a thousand reasons why I should endure bad treatment. I did all of that in my first marriage and it nearly killed me.

The dichotomy between what my husband promised and his actions early in our relationship vs what he is giving out now is so strong it's almost bringing me to my knees. I am now wondering if I'm involved with another man with a personality disorder.

I really feel heartbroken.

This is concerning. Start snooping. If your H doesn't want to get on board to improve your marriage, then you need to decide what you want to do. Being married and alone is worse than being alone IMO.

It would be best if you just install a keylogger. I doubt he will tell you the whole truth. You really need to find out what he's doing. A lot of people here have used eblaster from specterpro with great success. It's supposed to be very easy to install and be just about undetectable. Check out the Operation Investigate forum, okay?

I'm glad you will be emailing the Harleys. Please let the moderators know if you don't hear from them in a few days. Sometimes their mail goes to spam.


Bad marriages are a big cause of depression in many women. It's really awful for our health to endure a bad marriage.


He knows how to be nice, but he chooses to think more of himself and his pleasures than he does of his wife. I'm not sure that's a personality disorder.

I'm sorry you are going through this. I know it's hard....

Bluebird,
The fact that your husband slept around with the girls at your high school and had at least 25 sexual encounters between his 2nd and 3rd marriage says a lot about his regard for women. We see this in how he treats you as nothing more than a sexual object, and he manipulates you by punishing you for not meeting his unreasonable and selfish sexual needs.

His independent behavior will destroy any love you have for him over time. Are you familiar with the Love Bank concept? Yours is going to be empty soon.

Longwayfromhome has suggested that men need women more than vice versa, and I understand that. But in your husband's case, this does not apply because he has probably always operated as a desperado.

I don't think he's marriage material.

I think ML's suggestion of having him talk to Dr. Harley is your best chance, but based on the things you've said about him, I doubt he would be open to anything Dr. Harley will suggest. Pity.

I'm very sorry.

The 25 women were between highschool and present day - still I agree that's much more than average for someone of his vintage. It shocked me when he first told me about it and I had him get tested for stds before going any further.

How ironic you should mention the word "desperado". It's one of his favorites by the Eagles and I listended to it many many times with him without ever realizing how it applies to him.

I have no doubt that if we split he will go on to other women and will hurt them in the same way.

He also kept a "bedpost" list of the 25 -- and added my name to it eventually. Found the paper when I was cleaning the cottage one day.

BB51

Listen everyday to marriage builder radio. GREAT way to reprogram your own filter so you don't get caught up in the charm of men that manipulate women. Don't be so desperado yourself. It's easy to be crushed and have our self esteem tied to a our intimate partners perception of us. You now understand at least at some level your husband has a sick view of women. Since you are a woman of faith shift your view and focus to God's loving view of you. That is the real deal.

How utterly demeaning that he would lump his wife with his other 25 conquests. That must have been very hurtful to find. Again, I'm sorry.

It's not ironic that I used the term desperado as I was thinking of that song as I typed it. That Eagles hit is also one of my favorite of theirs. It is too bad that your husband doesn't get moral of the story. Reading your thread, I was struck by how independently he operates as a spouse. Independent Behavior makes the list of one of Dr. Harley's 6 Love Busters, and all of them are death to a marriage if they go unchecked.

Your husband must change or your marriage will die. Let's pray that God will soften his heart and grace will create in him the change needed to be a good husband. See if he will talk to Dr. Harley.

But you are the one with the more complex sex and orgasm mechanism. This is why Dr H coaches men to please THEIR partner. He never tells women to do so, because it is easy to bring a man to orgasm! It's only porn adicts who are hard to please. They feel their wife doesn't match up to a seemingly constantly horny teenager who is paid to be completey undemanding and voluntarily worthless. Well duh.

If you turn into a woman whose sexual favours are paid for with a puppy (seriously?) then you become a prosititute, not a wife. If it's all about turning tricks for his pleasure, and about ignoring yours -then you won't be a married couple at all. it will be an 'arrangement'.

I don't understand how a woman can experience any sexual pleasure when she is having her arm twisted to perform in a certain way as though she has been paid for her time. Women must feel very relaxed and safe and cared for to enjoy sex. They must enjoy an affectionate and integrated life with their husband. The emphasis must also be on their sexual pleasure, not their husband's.

Porn has turned your husband into a needy, greedy baby who completely overlooks your needs. If you snoop, you will find the porn and then you can insist on its elimination.

Once this is done you may see an improvement in his overall attitude. It's hard to be a caring man when you view women as smiling undemanding porn objects so frequently.

However judging by his independent social behaviour in which no regard is shown for your time and pleasure he may just be a horribly selfish man through and through.

I've just divorced one of those and found it remarkably easy to replace him with someone affectionate.


You are right to worry about this. I volunteered in a retirement home recently and I was shocked at the number of seniors who parted ways or had affairs after more than 50 years together. Their marriages were based on one need - usually sex or FS and when the spouse retired, or got sick they were unceremoniously turfed out of the marriage. Or the WS found someone in the home who met two needs which trumped the one.

Without affection you will be miserable. Affection lets us know we are safe, cared for and protected. That we are important to our husbands.

What's more is that women do very well on their own, and find it easier to remarry at any age much more so than men. Wouldn't you rather be alone than so unhappily married? Or at least try to tackle your husband's addiction?

I don't know any woman who enjoys the act I think you're hinting at. Lets call it the other end or OE, as you term it. I have some VERY open minded friends and although I know women who have tried it, I don't know one who liked it or was able to put up with continuing it. Interestingly the women all broke up with the men who had asked for it - even when they were OK with not trying it again.

I suspect it was because men who ask for this don't have a very good understanding of the female body. A basic knowledge of biology should explain why it isn't pleasurable for women. It's really tiresome when men have sexually educated themselves on the internet and don't know anything about plateau etc...

I asked one women why she had ended things with the guy who had asked her for OE. I mean if she was willing to try it, she must really love him right? She said she felt he did not really care about her.

Really when a man asks for OE it's about subjugation. Most women know this in their hearts and find it hard to forgive that attitude. They try it in a spirit of guilt. Then they do not forget, or forgive.

Does anyone have the link to Aunt Pep's sex advice?

Here it is:

Aunt Pep's Sex Advice from Other Topics

I agree totally. I could never do that particular act as I've always believed it comes from the porn arena, is not safe, and well, I could never think of my H in the same way, or myself, if I allowed it.

I feel awful having all these negative thoughts about him. In the beginning, he took me on fabulous trips because he wanted me to see things I'd never been able to see with my ill first husband; it was all so romantic and sweet: surprise lunches on a mountaintop to watch whales, stuff like that. He even saved me from serious injury at the airport once.

Everything changed though when the sex issue became a major player in our M.

Having negative thoughts about him? How, just because you see the OE is a bit grimy and not your cup of tea? I'd categorise that as having negative thoughts about OE, not your H!

One of the great things about Marriagebuilders is that you don't waste your time having DJ's (Disrespectful Judgements aka negative thoughts) about your spouse.

You simply practice RH - Radical Honesty. "I don't like that. It is grim. I would rather eat my own eye." (Note there is no discussion on why your H is 'wrong' to think differently. His opinion is his own, he is free to have it and you don't attach a value to it)

Then you use that RH to PoJA - "Do we have two enthustiastic votes? No? Well on to the scrap pile it goes."

That's the end of the matter. If your spouse engages in any DJ's about you, such as "You're prudish" or "you're f***ed up" you let them know in no uncertain terms you won't be putting up with any of that and walk away, while looking up how to prepare for a separation if it continues.

One of the best things you could do is make sure you implement PoJA firmly when HE doesn't want something. To set an example.

Him - "Honey if you still want that dog, we can work something out. i don't want one but if you scratch my back..."
You - "Good grief no. I only want a dog if we both want one. A dog we both love and welcome. If you don't want it I certainly wouldn't enforce it on you."
Him - "Well really it could be something of a bargaining chip for me... I get waht I want when you get what you want..."
You "Absolutely not. No bargaining please, lets just be honest and not put each other through things we dislike".

See?

Replace 'dog' with 'sexual experience' and imagine it coming from your husband's lips.

That's PoJA. Pure loving care, protection from nagging, cajoling, DJ's and abuse.

I love PoJA.

Thanks indiegirl. Makes sense when put that way. However H has been essentially doing his own thing for years -- I suspect even through his previous marriages.

He will be highly resistant to any kind of change. In fact, right now, I doubt he'll be open to any of this. But first I'll e-mail the Harleys and look into a key logger. I already know I'll find porn - just don't know what kind and how much.

I guarantee you he has! You don't learn to tie your shoelaces and then one day stop doing it.

Most of uis arrived here not knowing how to tie our marital shoelaces. Your H is no different.

I just read Melody's thread on the importance of UA where it talks about meeting the need for SF.

Now I am confused again. I didn't meet H's need for SF, so gradually affection, conversation and RC tailed off (from him to me).

What if his only intimate need is SF? This is what he told me. That means I could never win him any other way....

My first marriage was the exact opposite. My deceased H had no interest in sex , so I could never win him over that way!!!

No wonder I'm a mess.