I told him at lunch time that I was going to write up a plan of action where we would POJA his needs and mine, but that he had to commit to no more porn. He bristled at that but didn't say anything except that he would wait to read it. He says he still feels I have ignored his needs and he has a right to feel distanced because what I've given so far has not been enough.

Have you read the When to Call it Quits article? Don't be scared by the title! It's an action plan for the next few weeks.

One thing you could consider doing is getting SH on the phone, who will tell you what to say to get your H on the phone or signing up for the online course.

I think you still expect him to turn around and help you steer the ship but I don't see that happening. He's very entrenched in bad habits and expects you to capitulate.

You need to have an action plan (like in the article), or a confident third party who he won't be able to gaslight.

You still get really scared when he withdraws and he knows it.

Indie, he is very much a "desperado" as in the Eagles song. It hasn't helped that he has no faith to guide him -- I tried to interest him but it didn't take.

I don't believe any woman in his life has ever successfully been able to reign him in and IBs. Once, when cleaning out the cottage, I found a letter his xw has written - it was a plan for restoring their marriage and included more SF etc . I can't remember all the words, but recall feeling sad for her. She talked alot about the fact that he was a workaholic, was never home for family dinners, and when home secluded himself in the basement office. It was just this past summer that I found it and little did I know...

I want to give him a few more days to respond. If I push and he feels tension, he'll only leave for the cottage.

Let him know that the goal is to meet his "needs" in a way that makes you feel happy and comfortable. You will not be satisfying any selfish demands or making any sacrifices. So, if he wants his "needs" met you will have to work together to find a way to meet them that is mutually satisfying. This is not win/lose, but win/win.

Thats ok. If he leaves, that is an answer too. I would keep this on the front burner until it is resolved.

I agree it's no tragedy if he leaves. In fact I am amazed you would care after the reception you got. Amazed you resisted packing his bags. If he leaves tell him he MAY return - without the porn.



I agree. It's a song for sad lonely old men.



I don't have any religious faith. I still know how to be decent, kind, committed and nice. His faith is his business but his behaviour is yours.




That's not their job. It's his. It's their job to leave and do better.



I don't feel sad for her, I'm impressed. She gave him a shot but made it clear she had high standards. If you were to talk to her today she'd probably be ecstatic that he became somebody else's problem, is much happier and she would probably feel sad for you.

I know that's how I would react if someone came looking for me after finding the Plan B letter I wrote my H before giving him the heave ho.

BB, I predict you won't get very far until you get over your fear of his leaving. That fear keeps you paralyzed into inaction.

When I was a teacher, parents would say to me: I don't know what to do about my child. What should I do?

I would say: Set limits. Let them know that you mean what you say and you say what you mean. Be a parent. Be a leader. Be in charge.

You don't have to be in charge of your husband, but you do have to set reasonable limits and have the courage and wherewithal to stand by them. If you don't then you are enabling his selfish behavior. This will never get better.

Indie recommended you get a third party involved. I agree. That's why I recommended that you contact Steve Harley. It seems your husband is dead set in his ways, and that even Steve wouldn't be able to influence him. But if he really loves you, your leaving may be the impetus he needs to talk to Steve with an open mind.

Yes I'm afraid. - really really afraid. I try to visualize life without him or worse, him with someone else and it feels like a hard gut punch. And I know many here have been left, cheated on etc and survived and I guess I will too if it happens. But it seems so sad that it's come to this. He was my bff in highschool as well as my boyfriend. We went everywhere together - think of the Beatles song, "Two of uS." Then think of the "Long and Winding Road."

That's been our lives. He wasn't a desperado when I knew him then. But along the way something happened.

Both of my H's have been able to out argue me, make me feel inadequate and at fault. Or rather, I allowed it. I've been told I have ptsd from my first marriage and his illness.

I guess at this stage of my life I wanted to rest with someone and it's not happening. I'm so tired, but will start on the letter/plan tomorrow.

As they say, one day at a time. Even one moment at a time. You have already made positive steps. You stood up and stated your standards going forward. These standards were not clear before. But now they are becoming clearer. Yes you are wounded but don't simply lick your wounds and worry. You are learning how to protect yourself and create a real marriage.

Steve Harley would coach us using the analogy of piloting a plane. When you are in trouble and lose your perspective do not rely on your old perspective but rely on the instruments. He is talking about the use of MB principles. Your own perspective might not help you so much or tell you where you are--but follow the instrument here. That's what they tell pilots trying to figure out what is sky and what is earth. Clears up confusion and manages fear.

We are all helping you follow the instruments. Real actions come out of following the instruments. The principles. Your husband seems pretty entrenched in IB and porn--but stranger things have happened.

I personally have mentioned reminding myself of who I am in terms of my relationship to God when my husband would gaslight me
and project a diminishing view of me. Helped me better stand up for myself and take action. My husband was pretty entrenched in IB.

I know ML worries people will 'wait for God' to make things happen and allow themselves to be abused with no end in sight. Not my thing. I'm simply saying go look at this other mirror. That's you BB. Your husband is holding up one of those wavy carnival mirrors. That's a distortion.

Infidelity is the worst. A terrible, terrible blow. Yes, he might take off. Or he might turn around. You are both on a narrow path. You only have control of yourself.

Again, the action now is to write the letter. So there you go.

It is terrible you have to deal with this at this point in your life. You needed your 1st husband held to higher standards too. You would have known how to take care of yourself sooner. You'll likely never know if he was gay. But thankfully you have this chance to have this experience in thoughtfulness and care and building intimacy. No matter what happens this experience will be a positive game changer for your relationship with your husband now.

It's not the prospect of losing him you should find scary. The prospect of nothing changing should scare you far, far more.

There isn't any more long and winding road (unless he gets rid of the porn). There isn't any more sweet teenage love (unless he gets rid of the porn). That stuff has all been burned away by the porn. Now you are a name on a list. Is that sad? Yes but it isn't your decision, it is his. You made a good decision and he either joins you in it or he gets out.

You simply cannot allow this grimness in your home. Allowing him to 'desperado' himself (that's a euphemism) into utter misery where nothing makes him happy enough. He will always be seeking more, better, younger, spicier - porn users are never sated. Perving over girls young enough to be his granddaughter long into old age while you stand idly to one side, neglected - aiding and abetting.

Does that scare you?

Your reminiscing of the high school BFF is just as much fantasy as pornography. Both fantasies keep you and him crippled in current reality, living in misery. You are 50-60 correct? If he wishes to live in an alternate reality that is his unfortunate choice, but why do you continue - again - to deprive yourself of love and life because of a man who does not respect you? Don't you wish to look forward to your golden years? We only live one life.

[

Indie and Alias:

Reading your comments I realize you're both right. I accept far too little.

Writing the plan now. If he doesn't want to cooperate, separation is my choice. Don't want to, but necessary.

I'll update in a few days.

Proud to hear you are stepping outside his foggy world and seeing better.

Good job Bluebird! Time to stand up for yourself. Be outcome independant if he doesn't want to follow the plan to have a happy and fulfilling marriage where EVERYONE gets their needs met equally and happily. Looking forward to seeing your update. Keep up the good work!

MNG

If it helps, post a draft here b4 presentation to husband.

That really is the boiled down truth. You will give him every opportunity to deliver the marriage he promised but he MUST deliver to keep you.

Here is a draft:

Dear XXXX:

I realize our marriage, which began with such hope and promise, has not been healthy or happy for some time. You feel I haven't been trying to meet your greatest need for SF, and I have felt shutdown because the things that are most important to me: lots of time together, intimate conversation and affection, have been on the wane or just not there.

I have a plan to make our marriage better and stronger, but it means changes. Changes that will ensure both of us get our most important needs met.

First, to restore happiness to us, you must give up all porn viewing. It is not harmless as you believe, because it drains my love for you and makes me feel that you compare our love life to what you see online. I do not feel safe or secure, or that I have the full and complete love you promised as long as you continue to look at porn. There is simply not enough room in our marriage for porn. Period.

Second, I need you to cut back on your independent behaviours which have been taking important time away from us. Your exercise regime, and habit of keeping to yourself until mid-day mean we miss out on important opportunities to talk and have intimate conversation and affection. Our marriage needs this to thrive!

I know the love and care you promised me were not just empty words and feelings. I know the man you can be and that you too do not want to end up alone.

In return for making me feel more loved and cared for, I will be open to meeting your most important need for SF. Without the porn overshadowing our relationship, I will be open to more SF and to making sure I dress and look attractive to you.

Nothing good will happen in our marriage unless you give up the porn. And I am prepared to separate if you can't or won't do this.

I love you but we both deserve better.

bb

Like it.

I gave him the plan tis morning -- he said he wanted to take some time to read it and think about it.

Scared he is not going to be receptive. I'm not prepared to go any further with him unless he antes up to the plan.