I'm surprised you fell for that, Gamma. Lightsout's wife was clearly gaslighting him and throwing him off the scent. The improvement was temporary and she became a wild sex bomb to stop him from hounding her. By the end of the thread he was becoming despondent again because she was clearly still unhappy with him.

Yes, he did say that, but he was talking about a real affair - infidelity that happened during the marriage. TR's situation and yours, where your girlfriend was unfaithful to some degree while you were dating, and which she confessed, even telling you that the relationship changed her and that she went overboard for this man, and which you knew about before you married her and still married her, are chalk and cheese to an actual affair. Your situation and TheRoad's and BrokenVase's are absolutely different. They were married when this happened, and you were not.

Additionally, Dr H did not say or imply that TheRoad should use any means necessary, including tricking his wife into a face-to-face confrontation with OM, to get the truth. He did not imply that TR should do anything to distress his wife, as you have distressed yours. He did not imply that there should be cruelty to his wife, as you have been cruel to yours. If I remember correctly, he did say that or imply that TR had the choice to divorce if this was such an important issue to him and he could not get the truth about it. TR told him that he would not divorce, however.

You are misusing Marriage Builders concepts to justify this insane pursuit and revenge for something that you knew about before you were married, and you are misusing the situations of adultery within marriages on this board to make non-existent comparisons with your own situation.

If you want to use MB concepts for your situation you should write to Dr H now describing what you knew before you were married, the lengths you have gone to uncover more details including taking your wife to meet this man twice, and your future plans. Ask him for his advice before you go any further. If you really want to use MB in your marriage you will do this now.

This is not an affair, though. You were not married. And for the life of me I can't figure out how you imagine finding out about the sex in her previous relationship with this guy is going to help your sex life today? How did you ever come up with that rationale? Finding that out will not help your sex life.

If you want your sex life to be improved, that will happen by improving your marriage.

It's a very strange view of female sexuality that believes that confessing the past releases some sort of burden and makes the woman lose her inhibitions. I suppose Sigmund Freud might have said something like that, but I've never heard Dr H even suggest it, and I haven't seen it work for any women on MB.

Dr H is very different from Freud in that he is a behaviourist. He does not recommend regressing and reliving the past, but in making the present enjoyable. That is what he recommends in the articles Mel linked.

I would say his wife knows Gamma's need for the truth she just refused to recognize Gamma's need for the truth.

Most men are not ok with their GF dating other men. Even when the talk to be exclusive has not yet happened. There are many here that will say that is not cheating and not an affair going by strict interpretation of those words.

Dictionary approval is not needed for a man to not like the feelings of having to share his GF. Like even less when she is taking care of the other man's physical needs and not his.

Yes with time there can be details that are lost to memory for your WW.

Many answers contradicting and reluctance to speak anymore shows a WW that has lied. For you see it is easier to remember the truth then to remember the lies said to cover up the crime. She knows she can not remember the fibs that she told you. So to prevent from getting caught she will no longer allow herself to be questioned and refused to answer.

Gamma's wife is also choosing to live this way. She knows his need for the truth. She knows how it is effecting the marriage. His wife chooses to have the marriage that she has, then provide the truth and move the marriage forward.

Gamma, your approach is passive aggressive. You will not sit your wife down and have the talk where you will not accept not knowing the truth any longer.

If I was the OM I do not think I would tell the BH anything. Nothing to gain. Only set me up to possibly to cause me problems. Does an OM need the BH telling the OMW (or kids and family) that he was not even dating 20 years ago that you know what your WH had an affair with my wife. I would have no need to lie. Not even for sport. Though there are OM that do lie just because it is a game to them.

Leave the OM alone. You can never believe what an OM has to say.

It is not a strict interpretation and there is a reason why "many say" it is not an affair. It is because it is not an affair. Dr. Harley holds this view because it is reality. The problem is that Gamma's obsession with this is destroying his marriage. He should not be encouraged to continue to destroy his marriage over something that happened before he was married.

Amen.

I don't know how anyone can read through this thread and not come to this conclusion. The state of Gamma's marriage is due to Gamma, and not his wife. He has driven his wife into withdrawal with his obsession. There is nothing for him to learn about the past that will make any difference, because Gamma chooses to live in an alternative reality of his own creation.

As long as Gamma has to know and his wife has to keep her secrets they will always have a wall between them. Neither one will change.

Neither one will tell the other that they can not live without knowing the truth/continue to hide the truth.

So they limp along in Limbo.

If there was ever a couple that needed a phone call with Dr Harley. Neither one is willing to change.

I doubt that there is any fact that Gamma's wife could reveal that would change anything.

I have an adult autistic son. I have decades of experience dealing with obsessive behavior. I can guarantee you that there is no way you can satiate an obsession.

Gamma has demonstrated through his postings here that his fixation with his wife's premarital past rises to the level of an obsession. Given the extreme lengths that Gamma has gone to already, I would think it unwise for her to indulge him. I feel sorry for this poor woman. She is the one being abused, not Gamma.

TheRoad Et Al.

You wrote, Leave the OM alone. You can never believe what an OM has to say.

Too late lol, I spoke with OM2 for about 15-30, minutes, mostly about the good old times at the old company. As a back story OM2 and I were co-workers for perhaps 2 years before my W began to work for the company.

As his children where nearby I did not speak about the unfortunate dalliance, which many don't want me to call an affair, but I did get his cell phone, and I will call or visit him.

My W called while I was speaking to OM2 so she thinks I was having "the conversation", has not asked me about it yet, but was affectionate and pleasant for a time with me.

God Bless
Gamma

Absolutely correct observations by Eureka and Melody.

My opinion is Gamma ought to be referred to Dr. Harley, rather than posters continue to dialogue with him. I would be surprised if Dr. Harley did not agree that Gamma is guilty of abuse of his wife. Given that, this is a very unhealthy, unhappy marriage. Sugar Cane, seems like you're trying to help him, but both of them may be screwed up emotionally -Gamma in this obsession, and his wife in tolerating it - that they both need more professional help than any one can provide here. Most of us have had relationships PRIOR to our marriages, BUT if I did to my wife what Gamma is doing, she would have gotten rid of me long ago. I think this is true of the cast majority of us.

Gamma, you need to get over this obsession and grow up....OK. Being married for 25 years means you're not young anymore - So are you going to continue to destroy your marriage with your obsession, OR get help that you need to overcome this. The lack of sex thing is I think connected to the way you are abusing her.

Tom

Are you ever going to contact Dr. Harley?

Gamma,

How is this building Love Bank deposits in your marriage?

I don't think that's the goal and that's what makes this thread so tragic. It's a strip down job not a build up project.

When I asked what he wanted to achieve Gamma said 'to make a decision' - but if he felt his wife was not meeting his need for honesty and openness or not being transparent, there is nothing stopping him from making a decision and filing. She's told him there is more and she won't tell him what. He either accepts that or doesn't. It's not about making a decision it's about not making a decision.

He just doesn't want to. Typically men don't like to file for divorce - it's women who do that and who here would be surprised if Gamma's wife filed before very long? Gamma would then have achieved his objective - the decision would have been made for him.

The description of the chat with OM is another classic example of a love bank strip down. The OM believes it is just an innocent chat with an old friend, but Gamma's wife has been led to believe they are discussing her and must have been shedding love bank units throughout at an incredible rate.

Gamma achieves nothing to accentuate his marriage in his chat with OM but he does a cracking job lovebusting his wife. If she leaves, then the decision is made without him being the bad guy.

Gamma,

I'm baffled at your actions because you are familiar with Dr. Harley's concepts.
You are one of the most knowledgeable posters on here.

Do you want to just divorce her?
Do you follow the POJA in your marriage?

Sometimes, it is not simply about education. A large portion of people know that healthy food + exercise = a healthy lifestyle and physical fitness. Yet a large portion of people choose to watch tv and eat ice cream instead, even though it brings them unhappiness. Knowing what to do to be happy, yet making the wrong, destructive choice anyway. That's Gamma.

I would say that is not ONLY Gamma, that is a lot of people who frequent these boards. All of those people in Plan C, having the choice to do MB, or divorce, yet choosing some kind of disconnected life in the middle... We just don't all write about it and garner the attention Gamma does.

Gamma's thread, if anything, is a stark reminder to many people of just what Plan C looks like from the outside. It looks...irrational, unhealthy, and just downright sad for everyone involved.