One half,
It seems you like many of us--- plus your husband or both of you might have decided to base your marital commitment on unconditional love. Here is Dr Harley's explanation of why this often leads to marital abuse:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_ul.html

There are several other articles listed that might help you too.

Like this one so you can explain POJA and issue w/son in a helpful fashion:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8122_raise.html

Isn't it odd that we're always taught to compromise in life?

My dh and I just talked again about the situation. Yes, he completely agrees that his son must go, and he went downstairs a few minutes ago and told him that he needed to leave by Dec. 31st.

His son told his father that he understood that it was his own fault that he has to move because he didn't keep up his end of the agreement about cleanliness.

The only thing wrong with this is that my dh didn't "enthusiastically agree" about the Dec. 31st deadline. He went with it because it's what I wanted, but if we aren't supposed to compromise, that doesn't resolve everything between us, does it? It will lead to resentment on dh's part, and it leaves me feeling kind of like the "bad guy".

I guess now that his son knows he needs to move out, dh and I are going to have to work on repairing the damage to our marriage that's been done over the last several months or so.

Living_well, did you mean that you would advise us to get a real tenant into the downstairs, or that you would NOT advise that?

Dh and I don't want to deal with strangers living down there. We just want our own space back to live in as we please. We're not planning to let any other family members move in down there after this.

OH if your husband keeps unwelcome house guests under your nose he does not respect you. By staying, you allow this. I cannot imagine putting up with this.

Your H enables your son (no matter what you do I will keep things happy for you) but you enable your H too. You make it clear you will stay no matter how much you are disrespected. Your wishes ignored.

Separate and do not return until you are given the basic RIGHT to get a say on who lives in your house! What fresh hell do you think DS will come up once a broken leg no longer works? He will probably saw his arm off before he chooses independence.

This is for life unless you take a stand now.

How long before you hate your H as much as his son? At least with separation you could date him instead of nagging him.

Meanwhile he will have to cope with DS alone.

Yes


It resolves nothing. You are just piling more compromises on top of the ones you have already made. Did you read the links graceful sent you?


Until the two of you learn to be honest with one another, you are just digging yourselves into a deeper and deeper problem. Eventually it will make you physically ill.



Incorporating it back into your house or renting it to a real tenant will both achieve the same objective which is to create an end point. Get the contractor set up now to start work on the appointed date. Firm but sweet. Be very clear that this is happening.

There is nothing wrong with that. You didn't need his enthusiastic agreement to stop doing something that is destructive to your marriage. That is NOT how POJA works. Once any partner is unhappy with an agreement it goes back to the default position of doing nothing. Doing nothing means your SS does not live there until you both ENTHUISASTICALLY AGREE to his presence. He should NEVER force you do something you do something against your will, which is have your SS live there against your will.

When we say don't compromise, we mean don't FORCE situations on your spouse. That is what your husband did. The risk of resentment here would be with YOU, not him.

The only thing wrong with the Dec 31st proposal is that it is too far away. Now, you will be miserable for 6 more months.. I would made this no more than 3 months. Do you think YOU can handle 6 more months?

Because you will never forget that he put you through this and the longer you tolerate it, the greater your resentment.

Also, its important to understand that when we say don't compromise that we don't mean you obstinately stick to a black and white position. If you have done that, then the negotiations are over before they started.

In place of compromise, a solution about which you are BOTH enthusiastic should be found. This should have been done when the decision was made for the SS to stay in the basement.

It's also interesting that an alcoholic brother has been enabled in their home. It just all has to stop. I give this poster six months before she is calling divorce lawyers and her H will prob be relieved to see her go because he has hated the conflict so much.

However if she acts now, she can end all conflict and start Plan Aing her H. I'm sure she knows how to charm him off his feet. Then when she leaves in three months ( the sons deadline) there's a good chance he will miss her terribly and resent his son. The current set up has him resenting her because she is making herself the source of conflict.

Separation is risky but the current set up guarantees divorce.

The probability of their meeting that deadline is effectively nil. What is more likely to happen is the son will clean up his act marginally, then your husband will come back to you with an assertion that he is meeting your requirements and should be allowed to stay longer. Any arrangement for time beyond the minimum required to find alternative housing is unacceptable. That would be three months at the most. Any later deadline is just playing you for time.

Marriage Builders program and resources are masterful at helping resolve issues around poor marital relationship boundaries and the relationship triangles that can occur when 'others' intrude our intimate marital space.

Over and over here on this site those that are betrayed by their intimate partners seem to freeze up emotionally and cognitively when its proposed they stop going along with their partners distorted interpretations of marital space keeping.

You are confused by your husbands confusions. Your love bank is already empty. I know for fact, allowing your bank to drain in to red-zone will or is emotionally, physically, and soulfully extremely painful.

Your job today is to wake up your husband. He's the passenger in the plane (your home), not anyone's captain right now. Its a bit like being the flight attendant and turning on and pointing out the emergency exits when the plane has filled up with smoke after the (reality) captain has announced you are going down. As the flight attendant, you wouldn't ignore the announcement and continue to dish out peanuts would ya? You know you can't continue to sustain any illusions and go along with your passenger's requests for more beverages,right?

You gotta bluntly tell the truth. Your personal resources have clearly run a ground. You have nothing more to give out under these conditions. It would be harmful to all if you continued on business as usual. Its time to prepare for the crash. That's the best you can offer now. The son has to deal with the outcome. And you and your husband will deal with the outcome on your marriage. This is a long time coming. The stench just helped wake YOU up!

This was my feeling too. The son can find another place to live within 3 months. Dragging this out beyond that will harm their marriage further. Dragging it out to the end of the year doesn't help the son and it doesn't help their marriage. All it does is enables the son for many more months. A 40 yr old man can find a room in a rooming house in 3 months. He doesn't need 6 months to do that.

Letting this son use their home as a flop house has turned him into a crippled man. It has destroyed his motivation to make his own way as a man. Very sad.

It's also sad that this couple are caring for everyone else but each other. To avoid being the bad guy! You couldn't make it up.

Yes, 6 months sends the message to the son he can wait to act, that this is not that serious of a situation and there is possibility this whole issue will blow over.

3 months says, its over, today is the day to begin looking for a new home and perhaps a new or better job too.

Which message is healthy? Which is disabling?

I've searched the forums and can't find anything about this so far, and I'm sure it sounds very shallow, but how do you deal with your spouse's lack of personal hygiene in a marriage?

When we were dating, my dh was always well-groomed. As the years have passed, his personal hygiene habits have fallen more and more to the wayside.

He doesn't brush his teeth for several days in a row. Sometimes he takes one shower a week. He doesn't trim his nose hair. He's oblivious to an obvious dandruff problem, and usually doesn't notice when he has ear wax bits clinging to the visible part of his ear.

There is NO physical touching between us anymore, and a big part of it is because of this. I just cannot make myself kiss somebody who hasn't brushed his teeth, shaved, or showered for several days.

He's in his late 60s, so that might be part of the problem, but I see plenty of men who are that age who still keep up with their personal grooming.

Much as we didn't want it to happen, our marriage has slipped into us being "roommates" more than a happy married couple. We talk often about how we wish things could be the way they used to be between us, but it's hard to make progress when one of us can't handle the lack of hygiene.

one half,

Have you read Dr. Harley's books?
In one of them (I think His Needs Her Needs), Harley had a similar case of a farmer that would not bathe.
As a general rule, Harley encourages spouses to complain to each other often so that any conflict can be resolved using the POJA.

I see you are registered in 2001 but when you post that you and your husband live as roommates, it is a red flag because you should not be in this situation if you were using MB principles in your marriage.

Is your husband disabled or otherwise incapacitated?

Hi, Jedi Knight...My husband and I took the "His Needs Her Needs" class through our church years ago. It's been so long I don't remember the case of the farmer who wouldn't bathe.

I've mentioned many times to my husband that his lack of attention to his hygiene is repulsive to me. He says he "forgets" to take care of it, or he'll make a point of grooming for a few days, but then slips back into neglecting it again.

He's nearly 10 years older than I am, and he tends to look like "an old bum" when he goes out in public all grizzly like that.

I'm not looking for movie star good looks. I just wish my husband wouldn't leave the house without doing "the basics" that most people do.

When we were first married, we promised that we would do our best to always have a good marriage, but life got in the way, as it does for most of us.

Life has been very hard since we've been married, and most of the time, not good. It's been one thing after another, and we're just worn down from it all.

I told my husband last night that the only happy time we had was when we were dating, up until shortly after we got married. Everything went downhill after that in too many ways to list.

Yes, at one time my husband was disabled due to fibromyalgia, anxiety and depression. He's been doing much better over the last few years though, and leads a normal life.

I'm so disillusioned that I think there's really no such thing as a truly happy marriage. Of those who stay together and don't get a divorce, I think the majority of them probably live like roommates too, only most people probably don't admit it.

There are many couples here who would prove you wrong, though. And we don't have to admit it because we have been through Dr Harley's course and he gives us tests that determine the level of romantic love. My H and I are truly happy because we live and breath this program. The people that use the program have happy marriages.

My suggestion would be to read the Marriage Builders books and familiarize yourself with the concepts. You should read HNHN and Lovebusters.

I've read both of those books, but it was years ago, so it might be helpful to read them again.

So have people gone from no-emotional-feelings-at-all back to a vibrant marriage? I care for my husband, but I have ZERO feelings for him.

We have no touch at all, no hugs, no kisses, no holding hands or anything like that, and haven't had any for years. We haven't had a sex life at all for at least 10 years, due to him being on so many medications that it renders him impotent.

Add to that the fact that I wouldn't even want to touch him when he's ungroomed, and we've become just two people who happen to live in the same house.

He's 67 and starting to slow down, so who knows how many "good" years might be left anyway?

I'd love for us to be one of those 80-year old couples who are still in love with each other, but have no idea how to get there. My husband is a good, kind, generous man. I like him a lot. I just don't have any romantic love feelings for him anymore.

By the way, I do remember enough of Dr. Harley's material to know that both of us do lovebusters to each other OFTEN these days. My "love tank" has been empty for years, so I'm sure his must be too.

He does do some stuff that deposits into the love bank, but it hasn't been enough to overcome the lovebusters that have already been done and refill the tank.

I don't get very far with him either when I ask what he would like me to change. He only says that my anger is the issue for him.

I just went back to start reviewing Dr. Harley's concepts on the home page, and boy, no wonder our marriage has fallen into such disrepair.

From my perspective, it looks like I'm in the State of Withdrawal, with "emotional divorce" on the horizon.

We've never used the Policy of Joint Agreement, but if we had, I think a number of things that are working against our marriage right now wouldn't have happened in the first place.

This quote from the Love Bank section sums it up exactly for me:

"But what goes up can usually come down, and love bank balances are no exception. As most married couples have discovered, the feeling of romantic love is much more fragile than originally thought. And if Love Bank balances drop below the romantic love threshold, a couple not only lose their feeling of passion for each other, but they lose their instinct to make each other happy. What was once effortless now becomes awkward, and even repulsive. Instead of the look of love, couples have the look of apathy. And without love, a husband and wife no longer want to spend their lives together. Instead, they start thinking of divorce, or at least living their lives apart from one another."

I don't want a divorce, but lately I have been thinking that the best is behind us so I might as well just live the best I can by myself, even though we're both in the same house.

How do you start doing the work though, when you're at the point where you don't even feel like bothering to try? I don't know if my husband feels like bothering either.

Well, that's a pretty big problem right there. Dr. Harley says that as long as one spouse is having angry outbursts, no other marital problems can be solved. Your husband has given you a pretty big clue.

It's not too late to start.

Hear is an article that will help give you a plan for overcoming angry outbursts: How to Negotiate when You are an Emotional Person

Since you have been registered for so long and haven't made progress, I suggest you two get into the online program. You will have direct contact with Dr. Harley himself, and will be given a coach to help you through the program. I don't think you can make it on your own.