Gamma,

I am divorced and my sole knowledge on marriage is "book smart" knowledge, like a snot nosed college kid.
So take it for what its worth but I would follow Dr. Harleys advice and move on; However, I understand that you dont like being lied to your face.

You were obviously misled because she was not forthcoming with you about her prior sex life.

I understand you want specific details because its similar to a man finding our his wife was once a lesbian, or participated in orgies, or was a call girl.

It's an issue of honesty for you and I do understand where you are coming from.

But the bottom line is you either let it be buried in the past or lose the future with her.

Do you watch John Wayne movies?
In North to Alaska, John Wayne falls in love with a prostitute and later marries her. He didn't ask for all of the details of her past, he was just focused on living in the present day and the future.

Also, Rhett Butler didnt grill Scarlett about her past (she was married 2 or 3 times), but instead moved forward with the future. (Rhett's downfall was that he didnt follow Dr. Harley's advice but Harley wasnt alive then. If anyone invents a time machine they could send Harley back to Tara and perhaps change that great love tragedy)

I think it depends on how each person prioritizes openness and honesty as an emotional need. Those people who can live with "mostly" the truth (markos?) probably have a different definition, view and weight for openness and honesty than those who are "haunted" (Gamma, TheRoad, me) by what they do not know.

I also think it depends on whether or not the person believes his or her spouse CAN tell him or her the truth. As Dr. Harley has stated, resentment is more likely to occur when a spouse feels his or her partner CAN meet an emotional need, but chooses not to and less likely to occur when a spouse feels his or her partner WANTS to fulfill an emotional need, but CANNOT. (As a ridiculous example, if my husband acquired amnesia and COULD NOT remember the past, I'd be far less resentful than I am now).

And for me, openness and honesty was one way for my husband to single me out, make me feel special. Since he did not single me out romantically or sexually, I thought I might be content if he singled me out via openness and honesty. However, he did not. I am the one he lives with, but it's a pretty comfortable lifestyle here, one that benefits him in many ways, so it doesn't lend itself to making me feel special.

And finally, for those of us whose spouses had affairs in the distant past (20-30 years ago), it's very difficult to determine where "won't" ends and "can't" begins, in terms of memory.

We can always divorce, of course, but that brings a whole set of different problems, especially for those of us who are on the back 9, as it were.

Not everyone recovers; even if it's possible, not all of us maintain the desire for it.

Just my .02 - I think I really do understand where Gamma is coming from.

BV

BV, your situation is nothing like Gamma's. He is not a BH.

So you understand his need to break up his marriage over a relationship that his wife had before they were married, that he knew about and married her anyway?

Something that is now repeatedly being said and accepted is that Gamma's wife has lied to him or is not being completely open to him about her sex life prior to marriage.

This is something that Gamma has no evidence of, and which in the absence of evidence is a disrespectful judgement of her that Gamma is doing everything possible to foster.

Gamma has never found evidence to contradict what his then girlfriend told him about this man; along the lines that she fell hard for him and that their relationship changed her, and that she would probably never feel the same about Gamma after it. (All this was told to Gamma well before he married her.) I believe at that time she also either denied having sex with him, or gave the impression that she hadn't.

Over the past 25 years since then, Gamma has suspected that he never got the truth about the relationship and he suspects that it had a physical aspect. His reasons for suspecting this are that his wife wanted a divorce about a year into their marriage, their sex life has long been mediocre, and when he asked her why she doesn't do OS, she mentioned the HPV virus. Gamma takes the HPV mention to mean that she fears having picked it up through OS with this man, and does not want to risk passing it on to Gamma.

Gamma has asked for details about their relationship over the years and his wife's answers vary in the details, and more recently she has claimed not to remember basic details at all.

That's pretty much all the evidence. (Gamma will correct me if I'm wrong.)

He has not found out that she lied to his face. He has not found out that she had a sex life akin to being a lesbian, a hooker or an orgiast.

Gamma is pursuing this man against Dr Harley's advice on the grounds of his suspicions, not on the grounds of evidence of a prior sexual relationship..

These suspicions are about the possible sexual details of a relationship he knew about before marriage.

Gamma, are you on any ADs? They may help you with your obsessive thinking.

Markos,

You wrote, I had the chance, and no I did not. I could go hunt him down any time I wanted, and I don't do that. ,referring to the OM in your Ws EA.

Was the OM ever exposed or was there no downside for him?

One disadvantage to my speaking with OM2 is that I will likely not retaliate as he may do me a favor. I did weigh that against the likelihood of my W giving me another micro-truth, another contradiction or further minimization.

God Bless
Gamma

Oh, see I was under the impression that she'd told him he 'couldn't handle the details' and so was deliberately withholding something but I get very confused with Gamma's story.

But even if she was withholding RH - you can't beat it out of her with a lifelong obsession. Her answer is no. Nor can you go off and try to get her old boyfriend to meet your RH need. That would be like trying to get your affection need met by your spouses old lover! A need can ONLY be met by the spouse and it can only be met enthusiastically. If your spouse won't meet a key need, the only thing you can do is accept their answer or leave.

If as you say, it's not even a question of withholding RH - but a DJ- then it's only slightly more cuckoo than trying to crowbar RH by force or get it from her ex.



Gamma, it's not your business. You asked her. She said no. No means no.

Stop trying to force your needs and viewpoint on her. It's abusive and wrong.

By allowing her old boyfriend to see your abusive side so plainly it may even endanger your marriage. Old lovers are to be avoided. You don't go up to them and show them the weak points in your marriage and your own worst flaws.

What if he feels so sorry for her he calls her up to sympathise? You'll have created an even bigger mess, with a high risk strategy that carries absolutely no benefit whatsoever to anyone.

Blindsighted,

You wrote, What makes your situation any different than any other BS on here? Yes, I know that obviously your sitch happened before marriage and ours happened during. But I am meaning why are your "bad mind tapes that you can't get over" any different than all of ours who ALSO may never have gotten the full truth?

No I don't think there is any difference, nothing special about my Ws relationship with OM2 at all. I would also say that my W does not intentionally seek out attention from other men, they come to her.

However I would suggest that for some people the time between the infidelity and full disclosure makes the time in between feels like wasted years.

There is something tidy about an affair which is discovered and dealt with quickly, quickly being a relative term, under 5 years perhaps. The betraying spouse does not get to claim the statute of limitation or a faulty memory.

God Bless
Gamma

TheRoad,

You wrote, I never had the chance and still do not know who the OM was, 30 years later. The little trickle truth I got also did not add up.

Dr Harley suspected you have never been told because of who the OM is and that OM may still be close at hand.

I was mislead, I was minimized, I was not told the truth, and my wife refuses to tell me the truth. You can live without knowing everything. I can not let go without knowing everything. I sit haunted not knowing.

Sometimes it's just that you want a willingness to tell you whatever they know cheerfully, my W has said that she suppresses those kinds of memories. W has also decided I could not handle the truth, or so she has told me.

Married or not Gamma was not told the truth. Though if I was Gamma I would not talk to those OM. However he can not force his wife to tell him. He can do other things.

I also view speaking with OM2, possibly a few other witness, as a way of avoiding divorce.

God Bless
Gamma

Look Gamma, whichever path you take, you are ruining your marriage. In the early throws of my now XH's affair, one of the posters hear said something I thought very harsh at the time but is now a mantra I tell myself often: If you aren't willing to do something about it, you lose your right to complain about it. It's time to do the proverbial doo doo or get off the pot. Either let this go and put it in the past or divorce your wife because either way, that's the outcome you're driving this toward.

Gamma, I lived for 25 years in a marriage where the threat of divorce was always under the surface.

Anyone who imposes those conditions on his wife for decades...who lets her live in fear that her children's home is one wrong word away from crumbling, is an [censored], plain and simple.

You love all this drama, and just want to keep stringing it out because you love to HOLD POWER OVER HER. This ongoing, never-ending, irresolvable grudge that you hold, has to be magnified year by year because as she withdraws from the marriage (and you) further, you need higher levels of drama to keep her caring about what you do next.

You need help, sir, for your incessant obsessing about an incident that happened many, many MANY years ago, before your marriage.

May God give you the grace to see yourself for what you are, and what you are doing.

All the best,
Sunnytimes

I cannot tell from this sentence whether Gamma's wife was referring to that specific relationship, or whether she was talking hypothetically about never giving the details if she ever had an affair.

However, it appears to be true. Gamma has made it clear that he could not handle his worst suspicions and he would divorce her. That does not mean she is admitting to a sexual relationship, though.

Gamma, was the above statement about your not being able to handle the truth referring to the pre-marital relationship with "OM2"?

Was she specifically referring to that pre-marital relationship?

She is correct, wouldn't you say? She told you about a year before the wedding that she was in love with this man and that she wasn't in love with you. She said that she would never feel the same about you again. For some reason that I cannot understand, you married her knowing this and now you are seeking revenge from this man, and considering a getting a divorce or having a revenge affair yourself.

Prisca,

You wrote, And all this is irrelevant to Gamma's case. He is not a BH. His wife is not completely open about her life before her marriage, but Gamma does not encourage honesty with his little stunts and the threat of divorce that hangs over head.

I have never mentioned the word divorce to my W jokingly or as a threat. My W has done so in great seriousness perhaps 4 or 5 times during our marriage.

She also does not like to recall giving her wedding ring back to me, sleeping in another bed and telling me she wanted a divorce all those pre-MB times in our marriage.

My W, most of the time, cannot handle when she causes pain for others.

God Bless
Gamma

Oh totally. Apply it to a different example of RH and you see how crazy it is. Say instead of having sex with her boyfriend she'd gone shoplifting with him and lied to people about it at the time when questioned.

This is a moral weakness, but Gamma's wife won't be RH about the details because she's ashamed, doesn't want to discuss it and simply doesn't trust Gamma to handle her confidences sensitively or well.

So Gamma proves he is neither sensitive, respectful or trustworthy by badgering her, never letting it go, and even bringing the ex thief lover back into her life.

You'd be crazy to be RH under those circumstances.



Well of course she doesn't! Don't tell me you are still berating her about that too?

JK,

You wrote, I am divorced and my sole knowledge on marriage is "book smart" knowledge, like a snot nosed college kid. So take it for what its worth but I would follow Dr. Harleys advice and move on; However, I understand that you dont like being lied to your face.

You have your personal experience which is all any of us have really so you're no less qualified.

You were obviously misled because she was not forthcoming with you about her prior sex life. I understand you want specific details because its similar to a man finding our his wife was once a lesbian, or participated in orgies, or was a call girl.

Although I don't delve into it on MB, there are other relationships my W had where she may have crossed the line, and part of her reason for avoiding opening up about OM2 is that it would snowball on her. At one time she was mad at me for saying that kissing someone was sex and constituted an affair, she also said fleetingly that she kissed a girl.

John Wayne had 3 wives and apparently a number of affairs btw.

God Bless
Gamma

She knows.

BrokenVase,

You wrote,And for me, openness and honesty was one way for my husband to single me out, make me feel special. Since he did not single me out romantically or sexually, I thought I might be content if he singled me out via openness and honesty. However, he did not. I am the one he lives with, but it's a pretty comfortable lifestyle here, one that benefits him in many ways, so it doesn't lend itself to making me feel special.

I would have to agree with you there, after OM2 and before MB my W never made me feel special and often times even wanted.

Now people can mock you for trying to make your marriage work and not walking away, but it's very human to try and get back what you once had, hoping that you can become again the person your spouse once loved.

God Bless
Gamma