Ha, ha, ha! msmcbeth, I just may have to look into that

Okiegal,
I'm so happy tennis was so far one solution. And I'm so glad you both 'get't he vulnerability due to your husbands tendency to become the resident expert and make the fun quickly become un-fun. Like my husbands I gather recreational companionship is one of your husbands top needs. I think it just helps to know this and learn how to protect the marriage from a negative feedback loop.

Hopefully the meeting emotional needs will abate the focus off his one line item deduction, namely the redhead athlete thing. Its so weird how the career oriented strengths can negatively impact a marriage. My husbands a surgeon and his strengths in focus and problem solving for others really stubbornly hindered us in so many ways.

Graceful2b, you are absolutely correct on some personality traits bring so great for one area of life, yet harmful in other areas. I can totally see how our husbands' traits would be perfect in a surgeon. What person would want a surgeon who overlooks little things. Or, in the case of my husband, a CPA who does the same. If they could only turn that part of their brain off...

Exactly Okiegal. I'd always appreciated this trait to the exclusion of how I was negatively impacted until it went too far. Now I am triggered before it gets out of hand. Still I don't want to even be triggered, I want precautions taken to protect me. My husband created a fantasy too and it took on a life of its own and just kept getting bigger while I grew smaller. I hope you can arrest this thing.

Tonight, I asked him how long he was thinking I'd keep dyeing my hair red. I reminded him that I've been going in about every 5 weeks since February and that I had originally thought I'd do it just the once for Valentine's Day. He said he had hoped I'd just keep dyeing it. For the rest of my life?! I asked. Yes. I explained that I was not going to do that. He said he understood, but could I dye it a little longer? I'm thinking about stopping soon. It's just hard b/c it's deciding between feeling comfortable and having my spouse find me "less than desirable" or feeling uncomfortable and having him at least partially attracted to me. It sounds like your husband let go of his fantasy graceful2b. How nice that must have been.

Quick question, NewEveryDay mentioned another couple who went through something similar to this. She said the poster was canwemakeit and then later changed to cwmi. Is there a way to find that thread? I'm really struggling over here and would love to see their story. Thank you.

It will be one of the thread in the forum MB 101, from this list. Click on one and do some searching. http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&view=started&id=55644

Okie, At the start of your thread, I felt that a lack of dates might be your problem and the success of the recent date seems to back that up.

Back when you were dating you made lovebank deposits in a variety of ways with UA time where it wasn't about the kids and that was enough to get him feeling a romantic high that prompted a proposal. If you are going to Plan A you need to dope up his love-bank high with as many of these positive experiences as possible.

With no lovebank deposits his passion tapers off and he wrongly blames your appearance. Its likely old porn habits then resurface and he compares you to a very unrealstic set of demands.

Stop ignoring PoJA. Only agree to things you are enthusiastic If you don't want to diet, don't. Just be open to his persuasions on diet. Its his job to pitch and find an eating plan that is agreeable long term.

I think your hair colour is a massive problem. Sticking rigidly to only one option is not PoJA. Non-PoJA is relationship cancer and this exact shade of red is a symbol of an unwillingness to PoJA.

You've tried it - you don't like it. So it is no longer a possible PoJA solution. Experiment with other colours, perhaps a chestnut or burgundy and get him used to seeing this colour in fun date situations.

Colour is usually associated with our memories of things. It's not the colour it's what he associates it with (and it is very likely porn). Choose your own colour and create new memories.

Give it time. He has no idea he is eroding your love and would panic big time if he came close to losing you. But he is. You can't go on like this being fantasy red-head for 'just a while longer'.

Put a stop to that, smile and go forth with a new plan.

Indiegirl, good advice. You're right about the hair color. I just had it dyed a couple weeks ago and that is it. No more. I just hate how it makes me feel. I feel fake and embarrassed, not to mention the fact that I feel like he doesn't love who I really am. I want so much to go out, have a good time, enjoy the bedroom, and fill his love bank. I go through times of purposely ignoring that he is unhappy with parts of my body. This always starts well, but all he has to do is make one comment and I totally shut down. Getting the nerve back up to pretend I'm OK again is extremely difficult and actually gets harder every time.
We have gone through periods of months sometimes without him mentioning it and I start to think maybe he's gotten over it. Then he says something, like he's uninterested in bedroom activity, and I know why. Like an idiot, I end up asking why he's not feeling up to it and am always struck to the heart with his comment, "I'm just depressed that you seem to not be caring about your weight." Ah, I think, he noticed my 2 pound weight gain. And then we start all over with me trying to forget. I have noticed that he gets critical of me when life gets stressful for him at work or for other reasons. My pointing this out to him did not help. Just in a slump right now. I have decided no more red hair and although I will try to stay a size 6, I have realized that unless I start working out continuously, my body simply isn't going to reach his size 4. I do want to fill his love bank so much that he starts feeling completely satisfied with my looks, but when he's already stated that won't happen it's so hard to keep believing, pretend everything is OK, and fill his love bank anyway. I do so want to believe it can work.

Okiegal, have you been advised to install a key logger to see if he is indulging in porn?

No. I haven't seen how to do that, but I really think that isn't currently a problem. It was, however, years ago and this fantasy is doubtless a product of that. After what I just said last night, I'm afraid that key logger thing may come in useful though.
I told him that I was done dyeing my hair and that I was as thin as I was probably going to be, but that I would continue to eat right and keep my weight down. I said that I wanted us to do activities together and have a good relationship, but that he needed to not bring up his dissatisfaction with my appearance so that I could try to forget he thinks that way and just enjoy our time together and build our marriage. He went to sleep angry, hurt, and depressed that I don't care enough about him to keep this up. I know what's coming. He will now drink more, talk little, avoid me, and have a short temper with both me and the children. I have tried this before and gave in after dealing with his depression over it for longer than I could handle. I am determined to not give in this time. This sick fantasy is ruining our marriage, not my refusal to indulge it. In the meantime, I am going to try to show him that being married to me as I am is not so bad. I just hope he will see through his "hurt" enough to let me in instead of keeping me at arms length, which is what I fear is about to happen. It's 3a.m. and I can't sleep. I do feel a sense of relief though.

Well, I was wrong. He woke up in the middle of the night, saw I was up, and we had an amazing talk. He knows I'm done trying and he actually says he understands and is sorry he made me resent him! He wants to try for a great marriage and says he will stop pushing me to change. We have a way to go as I know this fantasy of his hasn't disappeared, but this is the very first time he has ever agreed to try to have a relationship with me that doesn't involve me working towards his physical attractiveness goal. Thank God. I think my husband knew he had pushed me to far. Wish us luck as we try to follow Dr. Harley's advice

I was just about to tell you that conflict avoidance simply stores up more conflict. You discovered for yourself! Every time you capitulated he simply came up with a newer, harder goal. Now you've drawn your boundary it is the time for true, two-way negotiation.

It's perfectly right that your husband put across his views so you can know what he wants as a starting point - but that's not the whole show. YOU HAVE TO BE HAPPY TOO.

If he ever again says 'You don't seem to care about your weight' Just say, "Whether I do or not is up to me. How I feel is up to me. I don't care about my weight, really. I am happy to listen to what you care about though. When I consider what you want I will also INSIST that I must be happy too. How do you feel about that?"



From this day pledge to yourself, for the good of the marriage that you won't be pushed AT ALL. As a buyer all you have to bring to the negotiation table is a listening ear and a willingness to be persuaded into true enthusiasm. Anything more is giving your soul away for nothing.

You've tried giving in, capitulating and enduring the other view and discovered that it does not work. You must walk away from each decision feeling honestly happy with it.

Also, if your H wants something it is his job to find a way to get it, not your job to just do it. He must be the one to pitch ideas and look for solutions to his goal that you can honestly sign up to. You can help him, but remember that PoJA involves Radical Honesty in deed as well as thought. If it's a 'no way' for you - you must SPEAK UP confidently and trust him to be a good guy about it.

You can't be taken seriously saying 'I hate red hair dye' if you then go and do it every five weeks. That said; 'a try it you might like it' approach in the short term is no bad thing.

Thank you. You are right. As long as I kept saying I hated starving myself and dyeing my hair and then kept doing it for him, he had no reason to stop me. I was looking to be saved by the very man who put me in that position to begin with. I guess I really thought that if he saw his requests were making me upset, he would stop requesting it. I guess that's crazy to expect. I need to look out for myself. In our discussion last night, he said he thought it would be really bad for a little while as I got to his goal, but then everything would be great. I suppose he just told himself that all my hurt was only temporary and it was worth sticking to his guns as I was not quitting on my own. I hope to one day have the kind of marriage where I know my husband will protect me from his selfishness, but in the meantime, you are right Indiegirl, I need to protect myself from being pushed.

Read up on the giver and the taker. There are really four people in your negotiations with each other. His taker, your taker, his giver, your giver.

You mention your husband's selfishness, but that's really just his taker. His taker is an important part of the marriage. He is the guy who makes sure your husband is happy! Imagine how long your marriage would last if there was no one to vocalise your husband's needs and he was just draining away his happiness.

You've seen what happens to your own happiness when your own taker is given no say. Usually too, an overactive taker kicks in after a prolonged period of having an overactive giver. I'm sure you've been hearing your taker say 'what about me?!' the more you gave.

All four must be happy. It's very possible. You found a date activity that all four like. You can do the same with any other issue as long as you are both willing.

When I read this Okie, the way you perceived your husband would act out based on past performance, I thought he sounded like a kid having a tantrum and not an adult in a depression. His version of a tantrum is less vocal and kind of sneaky but are nevertheless tantrums. You won't help anyone by giving in to his tantrums. I'm glad he appears to be coming around, just keep this in mind his habit of stonewalling and gaslighting you is manipulating. What a turn off.

I agree that we don't help our spouses when we give in to their blind spots.

One of the great things about MB is that each spouse holds each other accountable. We are all capable of SD's, AOs and IB's - that's why many of us ended up here looking for a better way. If our spouse had just said 'no' calmly and not allowed it, many of us would have been helped to avoid our own mistakes.

PoJA does more than just protect the giving spouse from abuse, it protects the taking spouse from abusiveness - something we would all like to avoid doing.

It also insists on wise decisions only. The spouse who says 'no' is the one who can see the problem with the plan.

Just as you would listen to the alarm raised by a sentry with a unique perspective - listen to the 'no' from a spouse who sees what you don't.

Things are going very well, but I just found some hair from my brush in his top drawer. He likes this red hair so much, he's keeping some of it as a memento. Now I feel bad that I'm taking it away from him. I'm sticking to it, but I really do feel bad.

This is why I'm urging you to read up on PoJA. Your giver is way too much in control. She is obsessed with making your husband happy; to the point of slapping duct tape on the mouth of her sister, your taker, and bundling her into a car trunk so she can't interfere with that mission.

Your giver has a point - it's important to make your husband happy, but she completely forgets to take care of you.

It is completely and totally insane to even consider colouring your hair a colour you dislike.

There are other ways to make him happy. You are getting caught up in fears instead of logic - it is just hair dye for crying out loud. He will live.

You've also got too negative a view of selfishness. Its not just fine, but essential to care about yourself.

Quit the guilt trip and find that PoJA solution.

I could understand if he was going off to war in a far away country and may never see you again. In the old days women would give locks of hair to their lovers to carry into battle.
But this is very different.
This is not normal behavior.