No one has told you to negotiate EPs.

I'm aware.

Dr. Harley stated that hfmis violating the EP and POJA by choosing the IB to work in OMs county.

I know if we didn't live here, then this wouldn't be a problem. Why that "absolves" the decision is beyond me. Just because my wife cheated doesn't mean I can too. Just because we haven't moved doesn't mean she should work 7 miles from his house.

But, it is what it is.

I see that this has gone on for about 42 pages too long, and I'm becoming tedious for you and Markos, and I apologize. I did everything he asked me to in eliminating my LB --the AOs. And I'm proud of myself for that. I am a better person for it and a, grateful he pushed me on that!

Helpfordad,

I think what your wife does is independent thinking for her needs. And no wonder that hurts you that she doesn't seem to care what you feel or think about it.

this should be a deal breaker if she has previously agreed to not be close to where the OM works she will in fact be violating a previous agreement���the trust for you is broken here you can't trust her to consider you or your feelings on this and anything else she wants���.

If I were you I would sit here down calmly and tell her she has broken a promise to you and that it has broken that trust you wanted to have in her���and that you are going to think about whether you can stay in the marriage with this woman she has chosen to be after her affair���Tell her it hurts you what she did then and now and if she doesn't care about that that you do��it is the most important part having a wife that won't chose to hurt you�..for her needs like she did in the affair.

I hear you about staying for the kids as parents we do that bargaining but it won't work everyone will suffer��.your son will notice it isn't right HFD.

Your wife needs to decide who she is going to be in the marriage and if this is who she is choosing you will never feel safe or happy��..reality�.sorry

I would tell her you need time to think about what is best for you with her choosing to be this person ��..
Tell her when she has a plan for both of you and a trust that can keep you safe you will listen but until then she should plan for a separation because you will have nothing too if she doesn't change��
I agree that when she decides to be your wife you will have to change her attitude about the marriage and how it will be��that what you have done hasn't worked and changes will have to be made���
You go about your business and show a happy you and get on with life ��..
She needs to understand independent decisions are going to leave her alone in life, she will have to chose what she can live with��..
You don't sound happy and it doesn't sound like your needs are being met ��It doesn't sound like you are in love with her��.you love her but ��..
it's not enough she has to be engaged she has to want to be engaged she has to want to make YOU happy��..it doesn't sound like she really cares enough about that sure she loves you ��.draw a line in the sand step back give her time to realize what that independent decision has done to her marriage and you��.
just be a broken record about not being able to trust her considering your feelings and needs. or living up to her word about EP's that it's a deal breaker.
You want to have a marriage not a roommate, not independent life decisions�you want respect for your feelings��..You are not a bad husband for being unhappy she is going to be closer to her Om, that it's not unreasonable to want that and that you are sad that she is so selfish that you can see she doesn't get it even after all these years���.and then walk away and tell her you need time to think�

Nobody has said that it does.

Now ... back to "What can I do about this?"

You need to be pushed on winning back your wife. I know you've tried - but UA didn't hit the mark and needs to be adjusted.

How about "What can HFM do about this?"


Like Dr. Harley said to her in his response:

"The wife should not take that job."



I'm going for a walk,becasue I need a break from all of this.

Life is getting weary to me.

Everyone on this website knows what your wife can and should do about this.

But she's not going to.

So, given that, what you could do is use Marriage Builders, the plan you have been ignoring and cutting corners on for four years.

It is clear that you don't care about your wife's perspective at all. You don't know what it is, and you don't feel it should be a factor in the conversation.

People who are following Marriage Builders need to understand their spouse's perspective! Even when their spouse is wayward!

Plan A is a plan to offer something to your spouse to replace the affair. She never received it. You left all that stuff undone.

You are making assumptions that Im afraid I disagree with and feel are incorrect.

Well, hfd, if you would actually listen to people who can tell what is wrong, we could help you.

Unfortunately you've always been more interested in arguing and proving yourself right.

Since you'd rather be right than be happily married, I guess I'm done.

Goodbye, sir.

And unfortunately, people here can listen, and can read...and can also disagree and express their feelings.

Too often "I feel that..." or "I may not see it that way..." gets labelled arguing.

I don't want to be right.

I want my wife to not text on the phone in bed like she did during the affair, but ignores me when Ive set that as an EP.

I want my wife to stop having AOs and cursing and throwing things at me, and who cares enough to eliminate her LBs.

I want a wife who doesn't wean herself off her depression/anxiety meds after I've taken care to make the appt and get her to the damn doctor.

I want my wife to lift a finger once in awhile and attempt to even know, care, or meet my ENs. Who isn't a Taker all the time.

I want a wife who appreciates we put our recovery on hold for 3 years becasue she was in grad school.

I want a wife who doesn't stop the POJA process as soon as she hears "I am not enthusiastic about..."

I want a wife to stop telling me "I'm glad you're my husband' or "I'm glad you stayed with me' or "I'm jinxed and have bad karma now, I am needy" and doesn't recip[rocate

You said earlier that I should be vocal in my complaints about her taking this job and how I will hurt every day she goes to that location. I've complained the MB way, shared my feelings the MB way, set EPs the MB way, tried to POJA the MB way, identified her top ENs and work to meet them the MB way.

It's not about being right...it's about a marriage program that only works with the choice to by 2 people.


Many days I'm the only one paddling...and you know where that gets you :-)

Thanks for all your help, anyway, and I do wish you well.

Thank you for your input jessie.

It's nice to to read your perspective on the situation.

Be well.

This is exactly what my cousin did and he was worse off because of it.

Did Dr. Harley respond to your second email to him?

She's a renter and you're a buyer. She seems to have zero interest in becoming a buyer.

I'm with Black Raven, Jedi, Jessie and some others. I say GET OUT.

Yes, Markos won his wife back. It is extraordinary. EXTRA ORDINARY. And I believe from having been here awhile that Prisca was naturally more of a buyer than your wife.

All the gushy "you saved me!!" your wife said right after her affair was over the top and insincere. I never bought it and I'm pretty sure you didn't either.

Get busy living.

I think that's what I've been trying to explain, and I'm sorry I didn't have the right words and it has come out as argumentative.

I feel HFM is a Renter, not a Buyer. I honestly don't even know if she is aware of those terms that Dr. Harley uses.

And she has been from the get-go. Meaning, I used the carrot of Plan A for awhile but not the stick and then I exposed and I followed the instructions about once the affair has been exposed sit down the WS and present the MB program and the list of EPs to follow that will "keep me in this marriage" and get a commitment to follow the program and read SAA and LoveBusters and HNHN and I did that.

But from the very beginning, there were aspects of MB program that she wasn't thrilled with, were uncomfortable, and she felt controlling -- from the very outset of "committing" to the marriage.

I understand what Markos is saying -- but I've followed the posts, and even though He and Prisca had bumps in the road, Prisca at some point put her stake in the ground and committed to being a Buyer.

Simply not having another affair does not a Buyer make.

On Wednesday, I asked her: "would you be interested in spending the $995 and complete the on-line counseling program with me?" And she doesn't jump for joy, or initiate the phone call, or say "boy, we really could use it" or "yes, and maybe we'll get a chance to speak with Dr. Harley himself."

NO. She replied: "well, if it's something YOU want to do, or think you would benefit from..."

I weep sometimes because I don't know that anyone understands what I'm going through here...I am NOT the perfect MBer, and I am NOT expecting perfection from HFM.

But at least I am trying, I'm buying, I'm not calling Dr. Harley "crazy" or "weird" and I am NOT breaking EPs, POJA, or engaging in IBs.

(which, I guess, I can do now anyway since she has and that's not really a marriage now, is it?)

She sees the protection of the marriage as control. She was just waiting for a period of time to get her IB back. She thinks enough time will give her her freedom again because she's 'paid' for her mistake.

Her whole way of thinking undermines the marriage. The way she sees EP's as 'punishment', the way she has sucked up to you at the exact moment she needed to to get what she wanted, the way she continues to lie around and mope because you won't let her have the job SHE wants. She can get a different job! This is not the only job in the world but her defiance is offensive and cruel.

Perhaps you could win her back and make her see the advantage of the marriage but I think the chances are slim to none. This lady is selfish, self centered and does not care about you or creating a great marriage. SHe clearly isn't thinking about what's good for the kids if she's willing to treat you this way.

I would call her on her bluff and 'just let her go.' I would NOT move into a bedroom down the hall into your son graduates. That sounds agonizing for all. Start separation plans. Who know, it might wake her up.

Not to be all 'told you so' but IF this marriage had a shot, a move would helped immensely. It might not be too late to pull up stakes as a family. You'd still have a ton of work to do but the power of a new environment cannot be understated.

Life is too short for this.

We have to keep in mind, that this marriage is like the chain smoker who was told by his doctor to quit smoking numerous times, yet now has lung cancer and is mad at the cigarette company.

It's not just the wife showing lack of care but they both have placed other priorities above their marriage.

They should have moved 4 years ago and may have had an entirely different outcome.

HFD has Dr. Harley responded to the second email you sent him?