I will read the thread you posted with the feedback given to your husband about AO. thank you for sharing.

I have also read the entire thread from W post and while it saddens me to see all of the information again, it is unfortunately not a surprise to me. W has been very open and honest with me about her feelings and at times, it has felt like she is too open and honest when it escalates into an all out AO war between us.

As I understand it, though, you posted here to hear our feedback.

Here's mine (and my credentials are that I've done the online course and written and spoken directly to Dr Harley):

You behave like a nasty, obnoxious, violent, abusive, disordered man. Your wife is being abused by you. Move out today and leave her in peace and safety.

Thank you for the advice about moving out and anger management. I completely agree that my problems with AO have destroyed my marriage.

W does need some peace and I am making arrangements to move out. I am not giving up, however. I understand a separation typically leads to D, but I also think it may be the only viable option for W, me and the kids.

I wanted to also share that I recently read the article below and it struck a cord with me. We are Stage 3 due to my neglect and lack of care about her complaints from the very beginning of our relationship until now. It doesn't all apply, but we have definitely progressed through all the stages.

How to Deal with a Quarrelsome and Nagging Wife

Any words or actions to have an AO are always your choice.

Even when your spouse is AO'ing at you, you can make the choice to not AO back.

You could have more accurately said "and I choose to escalate it into an all out AO war".

If she is AO'ing, you can leave the room. Let her AO to a wall. You need to never again, under any circumstances, participate in any kind of AO war.

You really need to also have consideration that you are terrifying your kids during an AO war.

Would you like to experience your parents screaming at each other when you were 7 years old? Do you understand how that knocks the knees out from under their feeling of stability?

Your kids, your wife and you all deserve better.

In your case, I strongly believe that staying together is more likely to lead to divorce. Once she hits the HATE zone it is very hard to ever come back. Moving out and making CERTAIN that you NEVER EVER have another angry outburst or disrespectful judgment will stop the bloodletting.

Do you understand you cannot afford one more love buster? You are going to have to get anger management training and make a decision to never have another angry outburst again.

I would pack a bag and leave peacefully today.

Yes, I do understand how terrible it is for the kids' feelings of stability. I used to be a believer that staying together is always in the best interest of the kids, but recently my opinion has changed as I realize that we are actually damaging them with the current state of our M.

It's not only the AOs, but also the disrespect and neglect. My dad is a very controlling, uncaring spouse to my mom. They are still together after nearly 50 years, but they are part of the 20% who is still together but not in love and very complacent. It was always a sad example for me and definitely not a positive example of a relationship in my life. I do not want the same for my kids...

I was also a believer in doing whatever I had to do to keep their home intact.

What changed that was spending time with a niece who lost her mother too soon. It has really affected her and left a gaping hole in her life. No mother to share the birth of her children and her proud moments as a mom, or joys or lean on for sorrows. She was very close to her mom and feels the hole in her life every day.

When I started to realize my health was deteriorating, I realized that staying until I met an early grave would not help my kids one bit.

Change had to occur; I had no choice.

After that experience, I realized that unconditionally keeping a home intact is not best for the kids.

Being open and honest is a good thing and should never escalate into a war unless you are rejecting her complaints. Or if she is making disrespectful judgements disguised as "honesty." When my husband makes a complaint with me, I thank him and promise to stop it. With that approach, there is not a fight.

His complaints are like getting a NSF notice from the bank. It might not be pleasant getting it, but the alternative is worse. I can't fix the problem if I am not aware of the problem.

MOST IMPORTANTLY ......as Melody told you.....do not commit a single additional lovebuster.

Move out, get anger management counseling, and then put your dating best behavior on while you work with this forum to change your behavior so you can participate in a relationship of mutual extraordinary care and protection of each other with your wife.

Can you explain this?

Sunnytimes and Melody, I appreciate your help but I don't want to get in the middle of the posts on the other thread. This is a trap for me. I have not been home all day and W is also texting me with DJ and AO, and I am virtually "walking out of the room" now.

I know I am responsible for my side of the street and that's all I can control.

Sir, I didn't ask you to get involved in the other thread. I asked you a question. Don't waste my time by telling me which of my questions you will answer.


What is going on here? Did you think saying this was going to make you wife feel she was in a relationship of extraordinary care and protection with you....or be in love with you?

Sir, your wife was on the forum all afternoon, "manning" up to the hard shots.

You are asked a small question and pull some "I'm leaving the room now" garbage to avoid answering.

Knowing your wife is in a very vulnerable and desperate state in your marriage, it shows a complete lack of any empathy or care towards her that you cannot be inconvenienced to take the same shots she is taking in learning to polish your side of the street.

I'm very disappointed. With a wife who is as sad and withdrawn as yours is, you have some work ahead which you appear unwilling to do.

I hope you have secured an apartment today so you can separate immediately.

Thinking only of yourself when your wife is hypothetically bleeding on the floor.

This does not bode well.

I don't ever recall saying that I do things to sabotage our marriage on purpose. There has never been any intention with my actions to purposely sabotage our marriage. I have admitted guilt many times about things I have done wrong (all the love busters and ugly behavior) and I have been honest about conciously saying mean things to get her back for what I interpretted as her being mean to me (probably her complaints, DJ, AO or criticisms). If this is what she means by sabotaging our marriage on purpose, then I suppose I did yes. However, I don't think this is "sabotage" and wouldn't choose to use that term.

My actions and words throughout our relationship have often been ugly, uncaring and completely opposite of extraordinary care and protection. It came out of anger and I regret it. As Dr Harley says, an angry person is an insane person.

I am very willing to do the work required and know there is a lot of hard work ahead. I am not unwilling to do the work as you are saying, but instead unwilling to let somebody AO at me over text, email or otherwise. I had to step away rather than get angry and start committing love busters back. Isn't that the advice you and others have given about avoiding AO and other LBs?

I did sign an apartment lease today and will be getting the keys on 10/10. Until then, I plan to give W space and peace.

I will also continue to learn from these forums and the MB materials, but I think its unreasonable to expect that I will be on these forums all day. I was on the forums for many hours today and then when I got off for a while, W was having an AO/DJ at me via text about not being on the forums and now you are telling me she is "bleeding on the floor". I'm confused why you both seem to expect that I would be on the forums all day and if I'm not, then I'm making no progress? Based on this, why would you jump to conclusions that I'm unwilling to do the work? I wasn't ignoring what was going on. It has been 14 years since I lived alone and I was trying to find an apartment - it's not like I was playing golf or watching football drinking beer and acting completely clueless that W is upset and ignoring the mess I'm in.

I have spent a lot of time tonight thinking about my AO issues. Even though I realized that it was a problem in the past, I guess it never struck me as bad as it actually has been. The replies in this thread are right - while it is not the only problem in my marriage, it has been a seriously destructive force against my marriage and I'm ready to do something about it.

I took the first step tonight by researching local anger management counseling and I just submitted the online form to have an initial consultation with an anger management specialist. This specialist also offers a 10 week group anger management class that I plan to sign up for, after I speak with the counselor. I have no doubt that I need it.

a) I ask you if you have said you are trying to teach your wife lessons with what appears to be some odd behavior on your part.

b) You say the question is a trap and you are "leaving the room"

c) Above, you appear to be saying you feel the question was an AO on my part.

d) Then you appear to be saying that you didn't want to commit an LB to me so, as I had advised, you left the room.

First, committing LBs to me is not even a topic of discussion as I am not the one you are trying to build a love bank with so I am in love with you. I am just a stranger on the internet and plan to remain that way.

Second, my question was not an AO; it gets at a foundational principal of Dr. Harley's that educating your wife with lessons, and this appears to be a punitive lesson (lesson + AO + DJ all in one), is a main lovebuster that destroys love bank deposits and marriages. My question was very fair in the context of this program.

Third, I said nothing about the time you spent on the forum, just that when an uncomfortable challenge came up, you specifically said you were leaving the room because answering it is a trap.

One more time, Mtn Man, can you explain the scenario where you told your wife you needed to teach her a lesson? I'm trying to discern the appropriate comment (was it a lesson, was it a lesson + DJ, or a lesson + DJ + AO) so we can help you see the behavior that needs to change.

MM, that is a great first step. Before you sign up, I would ask them some specific questions about their methods. For example, it is real important that they use relaxation techniques. This is a good thread that might give you some tips: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...flat&Number=2821595&#Post2821595