I want to say another thing that was spot on in the other thread. I always try to maintain a positive external image for other people while I abuse my W behind closed doors. I recognize now that this is a problem and I continue to do it even here on an anonymous forum.

I'm the perpetrator and I "go away" from the forum while W is getting barraged. It is another form of abuse. I own it and will change it.

MtnMan, I am positive that you have been a cat toying with a mouse.

That said, this is not a matter of figuring out who is the right one and who is the wrong one.

An abused spouse tends to become abusive themselves. This was certainly true in mine and Prisca's marriage.

In order to recover, abuse has to be recognized for what it is, and the standard has to become "Nobody deserves to be abused, even if they are abusive themselves."

That's certainly a tough pill to swallow. We'll do everything we can to help you with it (by highlighting cases in your thinking where you give yourself a pass to be disrespectful, demanding or angry because of something your wife did or did not do or say), and we help anyone on this board with that concept.

It's very typical in marriage that early on the wife complains and then when the husband does not address her complaints she might withdraw or she might begin to react with demands, disrespect, or anger. That's extremely typical. Another common reaction is for a wife to have an affair.

The best reaction is to complain, and then if her husband indicates that he doesn't feel any need to change for whatever reason (excuse) for her to make plans to separate from him - early on, while she is still in love with him. An early and quiet separation eliminates the fighting that takes a horrible toll on both love banks, and prevents the habits of abuse from taking hold.

For any problem in life, demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts are going to do the opposite of what you want: instead of motivating people to give you what you want, it is going to demotivate them.

I understand that a person who is abused can turn abusive. The fact is that I created these problems. I am the originator of the abuse.

Part of my anger management program is to take ownership of my anger and abuse. I am owning it now.

I also realize that blaming, justifying, shifting the focus, minimizing and waiting are all factors that are obstacles to me stopping my anger and disrespect. If I do any of these things, then the anger and disrespect becomes "ok" in my mind. I'm not ok with anger and disrespect toward my W anymore and I am determined to fix it. I am the "bad guy" because of what I have done to her. It is true and I own it.

So very true.
Markos was abusive first in our marriage, I'd say, verbally and physically. I became abusive in response to him, but that did not justify it or make it right in anyway. And I still had to learn to STOP the abuse if our marriage was going to make it, even though "he started it."

It doesn't matter who started it. This isn't a game where we try to figure out who is right and who is wrong. This is RECOVERY, which is all about both spouses changing their behavior to care for and protect the other.

It does your wife no favors for us to give her a pass just because you started it. She is an adult, who is responsible for her own actions. If your marriage is to survive, she is going to have to change those actions -- you cannot change them for her.

Focus on YOU and what YOU need to be doing, and let us focus on HER.

I agree and it happened in my relationship, but we didn't separate early so now I have a lot of bad habits.

Please focus on me only. She doesn't need to be fixed - SH told me that she is a very "responsive person", so if I fix myself then she will come along. let's focus on that. I am confident if I fix my AO/DJ and learn how to meet her needs, then she will respond well.

I will also advise you to keep an eye on your wife's activities -- who she is talking to and spending time with. She is very vulnerable to having an affair right now, and I see red flags in her defensiveness when questioned. She's vulnerable.

Great to hear, MtnMan, that you have been more involved than your wife's perception. Definitely keep it up and expand as much as possible. Saving your marriage has to be your full time focus right now or else you will miss this final opportunity.

Remember, your house is on fire, and strolling by to see what burns will not help. You have to actively be engaged in fighting the fire - and your wife's perception is the judge of whether water is coming out of the hose or not.

Stop trying to control, MtnMan. You don't control this.

We're not going to give any spouse here a pass to express disrespect about their spouse. That is the opposite of the principles we stand for here.

That's very likely true. However if she is here asking for advice she is going to get it. Your wife isn't an expert MBer - if she were she would have separated from you when her feelings said 'don't' and would recover when her feelings said 'don't'.

Just as you need to learn to acknowledge her feelings she needs to learn to not be ruled by them.

Of course to say so would be a DJ from you.

However we won't patronize her by refusing to address that in a place where she is asking for MB help. You need to let go of the actions others decide on. That's an aspect you need to work on.

We need to focus on you BOTH and that is what we will do as long as she is here. However, I believe she left in a huff so this might be a moot point.

Mtnman, there's something very interesting about the way your wife refers to sex on her thread.

It's as though she views it as something she gives and you receive. There's a few times she hints towards being proud about keeping this up in the face of all obstacles.

You would know better than me, but could she have been having unwilling and dutiful sex with you?

I really think she has been giving her lovebank away. It must be very stressful to live up to an idea of dutiful sex while falling out of love.

The reason I mention it is that it might actually really benefit you to be out of the house where she isn't subjecting herself to this expectation.

Few and far between gestures without sexual pressure will probably count for far more than constant affection with sex too.

If she's developed an aversion you will have to play it very slow for a very long time.

She's been a giver for ages and she's given away the farm.

I have posted on the 101 forum and I wanted to post to this section because W is now working "Plan D". She told me this week that she has an appointment with a divorce mediator and has told our kids' teachers that we are separated and divorcing.

Based on advice on the other thread, I recently realized the depth of my anger issues. Not only have I been an angry jerk for the 12 years of my marriage, but also for the majority of my adult life. It's not an excuse and I'm not trying to justify or blame anybody or anything for my anger. I know I'm responsible for my actions and feelings, and I have been in a professional anger management program for the past 4 weeks to overcome my terrible addiction to anger and emotional abuse. I think I am on the road to recovery - it's not easy and has been a bumpy road for the past 4 weeks.

I know resolving anger is the first step forward, but it's obviously not enough. I find it virtually impossible to meet my W's needs when there is so much anger and disrespect between us.

With W so withdrawn and pursuing Plan D, what hope do I have to save my marriage? I think the chances are so slim that there's almost no hope, but I wanted to check on these forums to see if anybody has ever recovered from this point in their marriage. If so, how did you do it?

Please help.

I think Dr. harley would encourage you to first gain full control of your anger, then try to make small love bank deposits.
It may be as small as her letting you shovel snow in the parking lot, or cleaning windows...but small deposits do add up.

You may be able to win her back after divorce in a few years.

MtnMan, the best way to make deposits would be to treat your kids well, and make an impression on your families. Word will get to her if your changes are consistent.

I have a neighbor whose parents remarried after divorce.

So sorry your situation has progressed to this point, MtnMan.

Did you move out immediately as you had been requested to/advised?

Were you able to stop ALL anger outbursts?

x 2

And don't fight with her if she wants to divorce...that will just make her more resentful and angry.

Yes I moved out at the beginning of October and immediately enrolled in the anger program. She says I have done nothing to meet her needs and continues to say that I "ignored her for 10 days" at the start of the separation. She is right, I did not meet her needs during that time so I agree that I failed to meet her needs and essentially ignored her, even though I wasn't absent from my kids and her life (I still coached soccer, took out the trash, did the yard, helped with other house work, etc). I primarily worked on the anger and disrespect, and she says it hasn't been enough on the love bank deposits. There have been a few "good" days where we connected, but for the most part I have failed in regards to intimate conversation and affection during the separation. I made attempts but most were rejected by her as not good enough.

Unfortunately, I have not completely eliminated all anger - there have been many cases of deep frustration, anxiety and general negativity. No complete yelling matches or rage, but the anger is still there. I have struggled to connect with her emotionally without getting frustrated, especially when she has a complaint. She calls me a "monster" and it frustrates me. When I try to explain my frustration or anxiety to her, she says I am using anger as an excuse when I see it as trying to open up to her.

I also recently had to define a boundary with her about texting. The number of text messages had become completely overwhelming for me and I told her that I couldn't text about important topics. This pissed her off in a major way but I couldn't do the 200+ texts per day anymore. I believe important topics should be talked about in person or on the phone, and not left to text and email. I tried to tell her respectfully that I would prefer to not text about important topics and would rather talk in person or on the phone. She says I'm not safe and by rejecting texting, it just shows her that I will never "man up" to what she needs. Maybe I am wrong in defining this boundary, but it was getting out of control and I had to stop it.