Hi All,

I am new here. I have just started watching some videos and reading some concepts, so please forgive me if I come across as resistant to some of the concepts. I do think there is real potential here to improve my marriage but I am also afraid of what might happen.

I don't have a specific question but I have a big fear I'd like to share and I welcome any feedback/suggestions/input.

I am afraid I married the totally wrong person for me. However, this is my second marriage and I am could not bear to divorce. My husband often says what a great marriage we have but in my mind I am thinking - I am not happy not happy not happy. There are SEVERAL areas where I have fears/issues but one in particular for this post.

I am afraid that if we do the policy of joint agreement I will continue to never get anything that I want that is important to me.

While we are compatible in some ways - similar opinions on things, similar energy levels for how much we socialize (not much) with others. We like some of the same things like movies, food, TV shows, etc. So there are things we definitely can and do agree on.

BUT my husband is dismissive of the things that are the most important to me. I think this comes from fear of being uncomfortable on his part. (And extreme selfishness. There. I said it.)

I don't want to sound like I am some saint. I am not. But the reason I am so sad and lonely in my marriage is because when you read about the giver and taker - I have been 95% giver and allowed my husband to be 95% taker. Some sacrifices I have made for him I would never let someone make for me and I realize our values are different which bother me a lot. I made the sacrifices willingly, but I think less of him because of them. But, it was that way before we married and I married him regardless. (That's how weak I was.)

So re the PJA - if we say that we don't do anything we both don't enthusiastically want to do I am terrified that 1) he will now have total permission to eschew things I desperately need to have any happiness in my life since he is not "enthusiastic" about then and 2) I don't know if I have it in me to deny him things he wants to do together that I do for him but really am not at all enthusiastic about doing.

Sticking with fear #1 - here is a concrete example:
He will not give the time of day to friends or family of mine. My original friends are basically lost ow, so I'll describe family.

I have a couple difficult family members where his resistance is understandable. But there is nothing wrong with most of them. They are just not his family and therefore he is just not interested. Any travel visits he sets the agenda to minimize our time together. And they can tell. He's never even met any of my friends.

When family comes to visit he is civil to them but simply stays out of the room most of the time and won't go on any outings with us. His reason? They're boring. They have nothing in common. (Like his family is so fascinating? Spare me. But I digress...) They can tell he doesn't like them and now avoid visiting.

I want a happy marriage but is it possible? Sure, we can find things we both agree on, but to me, my family is an extension of who I am. When he rejects them I feel rejected and resentful that he doesn't care if I have a good relationship with them. Not to mention it's humiliating to constantly make up excuses for why he's never there. (Of course, they've pretty much stopped asking, which is even worse.)

When I push for him to be open to get to know them, he shuts down and just says he's just always been that way. I know he wants to be my hero and wants me to love him but apparently not enough to inconvenience himself to get that.

He did make an effort to see family with me a couple years ago when they were nearby but he announced that he was doing this FOR me, and since he was "gracing us with his presence," he shortened our trip by 2 days and once we were there avoided them except for a couple meals we had together. So honestly, by doing me the favor of going with me - he ruined the visit for all of us.

I could stomp my foot and scream and he would probably give in and go. Then make sure we all suffer for it. It breaks my heart.

That is just one concrete example but there are many more I could give as to why the PJA worries me that I will never have the life I want if he has veto power over what we do.

Sorry so long.

I'd love your thoughts. Many thanks.

If POJA is followed correctly then you both should get what you want.

You must follow the rules of negotiation.

Have you seen this?
Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation

Is your husband aware of MB? Why not sign-up for the online seminar?

You can't think of the POJA as 'veto power' but rather the process of negotiating a win-win solution.

Take visiting your family for instance. If you want your family to visit for 4 days, and he does not want them to visit at all, you could negotiate a shorter visit, or negotiate expectations for his interaction with them that are pleasing to both him and you. There are options that do not just include yes or no.

The alternative to the POJA is doing what you have been, you making the choice without considering him, him responding without considering you, and both of you feeling unhappy and uncared for. So unless thats working for you, why not try to learn to POJA instead?

Is this something you share with him?

Dr Harley advises couples to complain! That is a novel idea, and of course he teaches couples to do it in a caring and respectful way. But how would a spouse know what to change if you do not tell them? So for this reason it is important to complain and make your husband aware that you are unhappy, and why.

You understand that being the Giver is no better than being the Taker, right? One would like to think that being the Giver is so much more noble and selfless, and puts you on a higher ground. But the reality is that they are equally damaging to the relationship.

Neither the Giver or the Taker should be in charge. Dr Harley has a great article on this concept.

How does your H respond when you approach him about your unhappiness?

Would he be willing to use MB tools to create a better more fulfilling marriage with you?

I would highly recommend the online program, but even using the free information on this site will get you headed in the right direction.

In addition to this article, have you read this?

The Giver and Taker

Brainhurts, thanks - no I had not seen that. I just read it and will read it again a couple times. I mentioned that I found this site and think it has stuff that could make our marriage stronger and that I will send him a link to it. He is naturally resistant to anything he does not discover (like my family, ha ha) so I am letting the idea germinate a little bit.

unwritten - not it's definitely not working for me. On the surface everything seems fine but I am so sad about my life inside. Regarding visiting my family - We actually did something like that. Some trips I went a day or two before him so he only had to stay one night. Another time, he volunteered to go with me like he was doing some wonderful thing. But then he insisted we cut the trip short and we ended up driving 6 hours both ways to spend, maybe 4 hours total with family. And they told me later they could tell he could not get away from them fast enough.

I am afraid that what I TRULY want I simply cannot have with him. In the case of my family that is for him to be open and try to get to know them and like them.

In other areas he might try harder to make me happy if I was more clear about what I want. Also if I stopped doing things he wants that I really don't. That will be very hard for me. I don't want to hurt his feelings or have him miss out. But I am resentful that he doesn't feel that way about things I want.

ANYHOW - I am definitely not getting what I want now so the POJA probably could not make things worse.

I am starting to understand that. I realize I have created the perfect environment for a very unbalanced situation. It's gotten so bad that I realize I often do not even know what I want. Or I feel unreasonably guilty if I let him do the smallest thing for me that I know he does not really want to do. I am trying to get better about that.

Yes and no, mostly no.

I have told him that I am not happy with my life right now, but I have not told him he is much of the reason. I think that would just crush him. I definitely need to learn about the "caring and respectful way" before I say anything.

Reading this forum I am realizing that if I want a good marriage I will have to talk with him about some things that will hurt his pride. I want to think of how to do it where I am honest but as gentle as possible. There are some things that once you say them, you can never un-say them. Maybe I need to stop thinking he is so fragile, but if I told him how I really feel about some things he would be so devastated. Every now and then my bitterness slips out in a sarcastic comment or flippant "joke" and I see total pain in his eyes.

He is not big on sharing... For example he never wants to hear anything about any of my past relationships. When we were dating I wrote him a letter once about things I was upset about and he literally did not read it for a month or two because he was afraid of what it would say. If he sees this thread he'll feel betrayed that I talked about him.

So... I know I can't go on forever as things are, but I really need to consider my approach.

But that is a selfish way to think, isn't it?

It is disrespectful to believe that he is so fragile he can not hear the truth.

And it is also selfish to be unhappy and falling out of love, but not even tell him why! How would it feel to have a spouse who is seemingly very unhappy about life, yet does not share with you the reasons why, even if YOU are part of the reason.

I can relate to that. My H does not find it easy to share complaints with me. It is VERY frustrating, because I want to care for him and do things that make him happy and avoid doing things that make him unhappy. But when he doesn't tell me what those things are, I am just 'guessing' and usually incorrectly, and it leads to even bigger problems than just being honest in the first place. It really isn't fair at all.

But you are right that there is a right way and wrong way to do that. Have you read anything about love busters? You would want to make sure that your complaints are free from love busters.

If you have read about the love bank, you know that things we do to make our spouse happy add to the love bank, but things we do to make our spouse unhappy take away from the love bank.

Now, consider a small example of that. Every day you brush your teeth and leave the toothpaste on the counter. He comes in behind you every day and is annoyed, once again you have left the toothpaste out and he has to put it away! But, he doesn't want to complain about something so small, or hurt your feelings, so he says nothing. Every day he puts the toothpaste away, every day he is annoyed, and every day you take a hit on his LB for you. Would you rather have this? Or would you rather him just tell you that is bothers him when you do this, and not do it anymore?

That is a small example, and I am sure you are talking about larger things. But if that is the case, your LB for him is taking even LARGER hits than a small annoying habit would. To the point where you are questioning if you made the right choice in marrying him! But yet you have not been honest with him about what he is doing to make those LB withdrawals.

My grievances are larger (in my opinion) but this is a very good example of the type of thing I do, constantly, that annoys him. And my attitude has been that he can just suck it up since there are such *big* things he's done/does that affect me.

But today I did made a change for him in this area (that he noticed right away) and I have another one planned. When he notices the next one I'm going to let him know I was motivated to do it because of things I learned here. That may help motivate him to want to learn about this and hopefully try it.


Well, technically, I have been clear with him that I don't like things he does/has done/won't do/ etc. Where I have not been honest is in telling him how I feel about him as a result of it. IOW, he knows I don't like it, but I'm still here and he's still getting his way most of the time, so while he knows I'd like some different things, he doesn't really <em>know</em> how bad the situation is from my perspective.

He is very avoidant and I am very conflict averse and any time I start to tell him what I'm not happy about he changes the subject, makes a joke, explains things away, etc. and I let him. But I think if I have a real come to Jesus talk with him he'll listen. I am going to do all the suggested reading first and consider the best approach and try to really think about how I have contributed to this.

I read something on here somewhere about when you start to do better the complaining spouse will often react negatively because it makes them uncomfortable 'cause you're no longer fitting into the role they imagine for you and I know I have done that some. He offers to make a sacrifice for me and I say "no don't bother" and later feel angry that he doesn't make sacrifices for me... (I am doing better about that though now that I am aware of it.)

Important to state your complaint at a neutral moment. I usually start with 'I have a complaint', is this a good time for you to hear it?'. This may seem a bit scary at first but the important thing is that the complaint not be made in the heat of the moment and that it be done very respectfully. Hearing the complaint should be as pleasant as possible so keep it simple and on topic.



Relationship dynamics are always two sided as we humans are wired to endlessly adapt to circumstances. If you change your approach, he will change his. Listen to MB radio where you will hear Dr Harley and his wife be incredibly respectful of one another. Just as important as the advice they give is the way they behave. And the books are great!

Dr Harley says the first year of marriage should neither be the worst year or best year of life for either spouse. It should be a year of marital adjustment. Learning to negotiate so the taker or giver do not take charge of the marriage.

How many hours alone do you get with each other? Doing what?

The beauty of this program is that it creates compatibility where none existed before.

This is VERY typical. It is often the wife who is unhappy first, and who senses there are problems first. The husband will typically not realize there's a problem until much later, when the wife is ready to walk out the door.

I totally get that fear. I had it, too, for a very long time. And I was very resistant to using this program because of it. I can tell you, though, now that I have successfully been using the POJA for two years and have fallen head over heals in love with my husband, the POJA works. There are times that I still feel frustration when I want something and Markos doesn't, but that frustration is far better than hurting Markos and hurting my marriage. And the frustration goes away as soon as we have negotiated something else that makes us both happy.

You see, you don't stop at being unhappy and frustrated. When one spouse doesn't want something the other does, then you start negotiating to find a way to make BOTH happy. You stop when you are BOTH happy.

It will be difficult at first, but with time and practice it gets easier and easier.

This was a disrespectful judgement. It will never work as far as getting what you want.

Everybody is equally a giver and taker. You are not one or the other, you are both. This is a very common misconception.

This is the problem with sacrificing. So stop sacrificing. With POJA, neither of you would sacrifice for the other.

Do you realize it would be a sacrifice for him to spend time with your family when he doesn't enjoy it? And that this sacrifice would be detrimental to your marriage?

How much time are the two of you getting alone together?

You are being very judgmental again. Do you have the book Lovebusters? I suggest you read it.

You must choose the life you want to have:
1. an integrated marriage where you are deeply in love and deeply care for and protect each other -- this will lead to a happy marriage, but you may not see much of your family or friends (and really, you probably won't care that much because when you are in love you will want to spend most of your time with your husband).
2. or an independent marriage where you do what you want regardless of how your spouse feels, and blame HIM for not feeling differently. You will probably see your family and friends on a fairly regular basis, but you will continue to be unhappy.