Any updates, axslinger?

Not really. MIL sent me a Facebook message yesterday and wants a Christmas list from me as they apparently want to do a gift exchange with me in spite of things. It's a sweet gesture but it's so awkward.

I'm still pondering how to respond. I discussed this with a friend in my discipleship group this morning and he thinks I should go along with to encourage continuity of that relationship. He's probably right and I will likely do that, but it's very weird for me.

For me, thinking about her family makes me think about her, thinking about her makes me think about how she's treating me, thinking about how she's treating makes me wonder why I'm not just divorcing her and moving on. So it's sort of a vicious cycle. :S

I can easily remember what the non-affair version of her was like, and imagine us in a MB-based marriage where we're actually trying to meet ALL of each other's needs (and frankly, I think that would be amazing...it's the outcome I want the most).....but the old version of her seems like a fantasy at this point and part of me wants to just let her live with her idiotic choices here, and walk away. I'm trying not to be disrespectful with that but when I look at OM and the other choices she's made in her self-imposed exile, I just scratch my head.

My wife and I didn't have the tools provided by MB and with them we could have an amazing marriage, because we were both caring and patient people who truly didn't understand how to fix our problems but were desperate to so our marriage could be fuller and more vibrant. We both read books/articles and tried all sorts of things to ignite the sexual chemistry for her. She had no libido, she knew it hurt me, and she felt guilty about it and didn't understand it. She wasn't as vocal about her unmet ENs but they did surface during MC so I'm aware of where I could have been better also. Obviously our romance was not great but we were truly best friends who did very well on a lot of the other areas like conversation, recreational companionship, etc. So while I was miserable with the lack of SF in our pre-affair marriage, I think we could actually have a much better marriage than we ever did before if we got on board with MB to build the romance aspect, and that's encouraging to me. I think we could really recover well if we both committed to MB.

But then again how desperate or committed to fixing our problems was she? The amount of dishonesty and malice in her behavior related to the affair (lying to everyone, trying to damage me legally in response to exposure, going no contact) really makes me wonder how much of a handle I actually had on who she really is. I know it's the fog, but some of this stuff is pretty heavy duty. Maybe I'd lose my mind if I had an affair but I can't imagine doing some of this to anyone, let alone a faithful spouse. I won't lie, we don't have kids yet but we'd talked about having kids and when I see the amount of "crazy" going on here I think "I don't know if I want kids with you!" I see what face1 and some of the others with children have been put through and I count my blessings. Dr. Harley said on his show earlier this week that disillusionment was liberating because it frees us from an illusion, and when I look at my wife I'm disillusioned and wondering if what I see now is the real deal.

Sorry to vent. I'm still Plan A'ing over here like bandit, finding sweet and complimentary things to say to her in my emails, along with fond memories we had. I'll probably send her a letter later this week or next through her parents. It's just the rest of what is actually happening here that catches up with me sometimes. Plan A is like looking at Mr. Hyde and forcing yourself to pretend you're looking at and talking to Dr. Jekyll. She was never like this at all during our marriage, but remembering that constantly doesn't change the fact that she is absolutely like that now. However, I truly don't know how she is feeling since I have no contact, and maybe what I'm doing is actually making LB deposits with her. After all, she still hasn't filed.

I'm working on an email to Dr. Harley. I'm taking my time writing so I don't end up sending him a novel rather than an email. Being concise is a lot of work for me, I'm terrible at it.

I have thought similarly about my WW and whether or not I have ever really known her. She has done terrible things to me and lied to accomplish them. The woman I married would never manufacture stories and twist the truth just to hurt someone or gain a legal advantage. At least that's what I thought.

The only thing I can really think of to understand the extreme measures that wawywards go to is that they have buried themselves in dishonesty and become desperate to survive without ever admitting they were wrong. It creates a vicious cycle in which they only succeed in digging the hole deeper. They are not able to be realistic about the consequences of their actions.

Just my take on it.

My WW used to be strongly against infidelity and had been the victim of it in several past relationships. She denies feeling any guilt over her A, I can't believe that somewhere in her mind she is not hating what she has done. In a situation like that, it is far easier to justify ones actions and accuse everyone else of being the problem than it is to admit (especially to one's self) that the actions were terribly wrong and no one else is to blame.

I hope for the sake of you and your WW that she can find the clarity and strength to admit her mistakes and commit to making amends by working to create a great marriage. I hope similarly for all of us on MB.

Do you still feel like WW is more angry about exposure than anything else? My WW now tells me that exposing her wasn't as bad as what I've done to "hurt" her OM (the truth hurt him, not me).

I think exposure is a big part of it, yes. How angry she is for me exposing her is tough to say. Everyone in our social circle has been disapproving of her actions and her basic attitude has been "you don't understand me and I don't care what you think". I think it's more about hurting OM and destroying whatever plan she had for their relationship to remain secret.

She left the house only after I started getting suspicious about an affair, so for some reason in her mind my discovery of it was something she was desperately trying to avoid even though she was already on the way out of the marriage. She was only 1 week away from being able to leave under our agreement on counseling, she could have stuck it out if she didn't care about me knowing. I think part of the no-contact deal is that she can't emotionally handle talking to me about this now that I know and have evidence. I don't know if that's shame or guilt or frustration, but I think it's there. So that's part of it too.

She also is hypervigilant about OM, like your WW and also like pm18's case. The last time I spoke to her was early October, just after the exposure, and the first topic of discussion after I presented my evidence of their affair was to plead with me to leave OM alone. I think that's just the infatuation stage of the relationship. The defensiveness isn't about who OM is as much as how he makes her feel. She's protecting her own fantasy. Both of our situations are like the Sue and Jon reference case from SAA, they're soulmate affairs. So the emotional attachment is very high.

OM in my case has so much personal and relationship wreckage in his wake that I know if I would have sat WW down a year ago and described someone like OM, and told her to imagine a setting up a single (not married) woman similar to herself with this guy, she would have gagged. Not taking into account his personality and such (which I know she is very attracted to), just his background.

So when I see her get defensive about him it doesn't make me jealous, it makes me pity her.

At one point in their "friends" stage (in March or April) she invited me to come with her to his stand because she thought he was funny and that we'd get along famously. Irony. I stopped hearing about him after about June so I think once they got serious the idea of us being friends was dropped. I've read a lot of similar stories on here where the WS thinks the AP is good friend material for the BS or even compliments them on their similarity (many cases AFTER discovery!). Humor was a big way I won her heart back in the day so that doesn't surprise me.

Thank you, axslinger and face for these descriptions. Our wives could all be related if you look at how they're behaving. I thought mine was different, but now I see she's actually following the wayward script even at this stage in the game. My wife told me I was harassing the OW. What?! I replied that I was simply hoping the OW had a conscience and would back off once she knew I loved my wife. But seriously, how can trying to save your marriage be the dishonorable action?

Yeah this is all very much to script in each case. That was one of the most shocking things to me about the information on this site. People told me what she would do before it happened, and they were right.

The complaint about harassing the AP is not something I'd take seriously. I've been a broken record to my WW on the topic of OM:

"What he's done is morally wrong, disrespectful to me and dishonorable." That's all that has to be said. It's wrong, they know it, end of discussion.

What we're all doing here with exposure is not very common, and the "other people" are usually experienced APs (unlike our spouses). It's not THEIR first rodeo. They don't expect the BS to fight, they expect us to roll over, and when we don't, they don't get it. So they play the victim because that's the only way they can garner sympathy.

Something to think about when you get the blowback on the OP...the fact that it's happening means that the OP is putting the responsibility for their discomfort on the shoulders of the WS. The conversation in pm18's thread shows this clearly. It's creating conflict in the affair. It's a good indicator.

My WW loves to through around the harassment accusations. She actually had a provision placed in our temp. parenting plan trying to stop me from "harassing" her friends and family; most of whom I had never contacted more than one time.

Axe, great point about OPs usually being more experienced APs. Everyone has been surprised at how I've attacked the A.

"She actually had a provision placed in our temp. parenting plan trying to stop me from "harassing" her friends and family; most of whom I had never contacted more than one time."

Was this cleared by her lawyer and yours? What were the details if so? You have to be careful not to overstep if there's something written down and approved by the courts.

This doesn't quite belong on this thread but I appreciate your concern.

The details of that provision are very vague but it does say harassment. As defined by law, I have never done anything near harassment and have no intentions of it. Her family is my son's family and I have every right to contact them. I am pretty good at not saying negative things about my WW even when I describe her affair(you wouldn't know it by reading my posts on MB).

Just got back from church and I feel so recharged. I've been so negative over the Thanksgiving break on this situation.

Our church opens up the sanctuary for prayer on Wednesdays, and I've found the environment there to be so important for being able to focus when I'm praying, rather than getting tripped up in negatives about this situation that I replay in my mind. Very thankful for that. Find somewhere quiet, somewhere with solitude if you want to pray.

Since we have a lot of betrayed husbands on here right now I just wanted to repeat something I hear Dr. Harley advise BH's on his show which I feel is so important to the battle we're fighting:

We've got the inside track. He always reminds BHs that they have the inside track on their wife.

We've got the inside track on how to win our wives over. We've already done it. The APs are just boyfriends, our wives actually married us. Some of us are the father of our wife's children. Those are big important differences.

I think every newer BH thread I've read acknowledges that we've neglected our wives in some ways. Fix that. Take inventory of yourselves, and turn negatives into positives. If you're like me your wife probably gave you a list of them in an argument when she left you. Those are instructions on how to convince her she was wrong about you. A recipe for how to pleasantly surprise her. Don't haggle over how accurate you think those complaints are, that's a disrespectful judgement. Some of it is the fog anyways.

Each of us knows the things which are important and valued to our WWs. Some of these change while they're in the fog, but if you've been paying any attention during your marriage you should still be well armed to spoil her rotten and pursue her doggedly. These should be like your Plan A playlist. Keep hammering on them.

Spoil her, it will throw her off and cause conflict in the affair. Women don't cake eat, it will cause them to question their feelings that convinced them to leave you. Don't expect her to reciprocate any affection (my wife actually threw away a bouquet of flowers I bought her during our MC), that's not what you're after. You're trying to cause problems in the affair and headaches for the OM. He's been busy convincing your wife that you suck as a partner and now you're damaging his credibility and making your wife choose between rejecting thoughtful gifts and affection or cheating on her new boyfriend. She's only going to throw away so many of your gifts before she starts to want to enjoy them.

OM does not want your interference, that's why they get all bent out of shape about exposure. Now you get to play his game and you've got a huge head start and several years of good memories you can remind your wife of.

Anything that makes the OM uncomfortable makes me happy.

Maybe that will help encourage some of you. It encourages me.

If you've still got avenues to kill the affair such as exposure, do that first, but several of us are in limbo post exposure right now. These thoughts are for that situation.

Thanks Axe. That's good info.

My WW has gotten very angry when I do anything nice like I did when we were dating. Buying gifts or flowers. It has put me off of doing it. I haven't tried to send her caring messages in emails either. I know she would be angry and I worry that I would be pressuring her too much, for now I think I'm right (maybe not).

Do you think caring gestures should always be put forth or should I be wary of pushing too hard?

Well, really, someone's who's already won their wife back would be more qualified to answer that. I get a bit carried away here sometimes.

But just kind of looking at other threads and thinking out loud, I don't know if "pushing too hard" is actually a bad thing in Plan A.

This whole time I've been like you, thinking I should find a balance because my wife got angry or complained when I was too romantic with her (this was before she left). But really, this is fog babble.

I mean, I wouldn't pretend that she hasn't distanced herself from you. I'd just stick to classy gifts that she'll have difficulty refusing, and in areas that she loves. It IS an LB deposit. Flowers might be overkill for a lot of women but letters, chocolates, small personal gifts, gift cards, etc.

Think about how the APs do it....all under the radar stuff that's irresistible but easy to hide. You can play that game too, and as long as you don't get too emotionally invested in how she responds, I don't really see any reason that we shouldn't.

My bouquet of flowers also had some chocolates with it. My wife took the chocolates. She probably just didn't want me to think she wanted flowers from me, since she was adamant about not being in love with me. Food for thought, I could be wrong.

Her annoyance is a sign that you are having an impact on her. Keep up the caring gestures, do not push, and be sure that besides symbolic gestures of care, there is also real care there.

That makes a lot of sense, Axe and Markos. I have not been putting much effort into caring gestures because of her reactions, I didn't realize that her anger was just part of the fog. I will try to come up with some subtle things I can do. She has been asking me for a few favors lately and I have been more than happy to help her out. I know that she used to appreciate that sort of thing but, since the A, I sort of feel like she is just trying to use me. I think if I can provide subtle caring gestures it will let her know even more that we still work well together and, because of our son, we will always need each other.

Thanks guys. I didn't mean to hijack your thread Axe but I appreciate your input a lot.

You guys have inspired me to go get my wife a Christmas present.

This is pretty close what I thought about my WW. Except she wasn't victim of infidelity, but had call off a wedding due to a lying fiance. Ironically, we thought his lying problem was rooted in the fact that his mother left his father when he was growing up.

This is pretty much the rollercoaster I am on. One moment, I can the believe the old her will come back and even becoming someone like Prisca. The next I feel that she has become the same scumbag phony the OM is.

I was pretty upset about things when I wrote that.

Most of us can remember a person in high school who was great and then somehow hooked up with a piece of trash, and for a while could see no wrong in that person, or would defend anything about them. That's a WW with a trashy OM. They're blinded by their feelings for that person.

Don't let it get you down, the real her is still inside there. She's just high on OM right now.

I don't have any doubt OM coached my wife through filing restraining orders and such. He's probably had more than a few filed against him as someone who's been divorced multiple times and fathered a bunch of children with different women, whereas I've never heard the words "restraining order" come out of her mouth. As soon as he filed one after I confronted him it was obvious that it was his brain child, not my wife's.

She's mixed up. Keep Plan A'ing like you're trying to help the old her break out of the wayward shell.

Thanks for this. I needed it. I know that my real wife is in there somewhere. The lack of empathy and her other behavior is straight out of the fog playbook/manual. This is not the real her.

Yes, remember what Plan A is: providing the best extraordinary care you can, without immediate concern for having your needs met, but with the understanding that you will need your needs met later or you end up losing your love for her and can walk away satisfied. Love her and care for her no matter what she says and does. I just asked WW if there was anything I could do for her, she got an annoyed look on her face and told me, "Yeah. Leave me alone."

I didn't respond angry or disrespectful. Sure it hurt, but responding to that hurt isn't Plan A.