Hi Anywife,

Negotiation doesn't stop if either of you are unenthusiastic. You sound so fatalistic when talking about your friends and family and not seeing them. That's not the end of the negotiation.

H and I had to poja our pets being in the house. You would think that the default would be no pets in the house. But, Dr. H said no, actually it's no pets at all..anywhere. If we stayed on the default we would need to get rid of all our animals. Neither of us wanted that, so we were highly motivated to come to a solution.

There was a couple who called in about placement of the kitchen trash can. The default was a third, completely different can in a completely different, awkward location ... like in the garage.

I think the default position in your sitch would be neither of you visit friends and family. See? That will increase his motivation.

Never DJ your spouse. I've heard Dr. H say, "You may think it, but don't say it." The October 30th was very good. And gave specific advice on lovebusters and how to communicate them.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=6860

Recently, I had to miss my high school reunion because my H was not enthusiastic about me going alone. And I help organize the darn thing, but couldn't attend. I wasn't really enthusiastic about not going, but I didn't want to hurt my H. My care for him was greater than my wanting to go to the reunion.

We could have chosen to negotiate further. But, neither of us were enthusiastic about our son missing a football game, so we could go to my reunion together. Ultimately, I had to give up on the reunion, but we attended the game together..enthusiastically. Win/Win

TO, the default position applies to decisions that are being negotiated. There is no rule to bring in other issues that are not under negotiation. Now, if she is not enthusiastic about him visiting his family, then sure, that would need to be negotiated and the default position would be to do nothing until a decision is reached. But unless there is a specific reason to negotiate visits with his family, that would not come into play here.

I thought that too. I thought the default about our pets would be just keep them outside until we cound figure out how and when they would be inside, if at all. Actually, owning pets wasn't up for negotiation, but Dr. H said that was the default position in our situation.

When H and I negotiate now, we go all the way back to the thought of completely undoing the decision all together and then move forward picking it to pieces.

TO, I understand this, but visitation of his family is not an issue here. In your case, the ownership of pets WAS so of course, the original decision would be revisited. So, in her situation, the default position is for her to not visit her family until another decision is reached.

When you POJA any issue, you don't need to pull in other issues that are not at issue. You don't muddy the waters with issues that are not relevant to the issue at hand.

No. Pet ownership wasn't an issue for us. The issue was, the pets being inside the house.

In other words, the issue of visitation of his family is a PARALLEL issue that has nothing to do with the current issue. In your case, the ownership of pets was not a parallel issue at all. It was the ROOT of the current issue at hand, which was having pets in the home.

Now, if she is in fact, unhappy with the decision that was made about his family then it should be re-negotiated. But there is no other reason to re-negotiate. All decisions that were reached without mutual enthusiasm should be re-negotiated. That principle applies to everything.

I can see why it should have been revisited. In this case, it makes no sense and should not be revisited unless the decision was made without enthusiasm.

Oh, people do things "worthy" of disrespect all the time. I used to tell markos that "Some things just cry out for a disrespectful judgement."

But, if your goal is to be in love with your spouse, what good is it to throw a nuclear bomb at your spouse? It not only hurts your spouse, but it hurts any chances of getting your complaint addressed. It may feel good or right in the moment, but you are really only hurting yourself in the long run.

People are not motivated by disrespect. If you want someone to do something for you, or if you want to try to persuade them that you are right, or what you want is good, then the best way to do that is with respect. Any time you throw in disrespect, you are turning them off from even listening to you, and they will not be motivated to do or change anything for you.


What's wrong with that?

And name-calling will not change a thing about that. If you want them to do things differently, or treat you differently, you will have to refrain from the disrespect.

Yep.

Radical Honesty is not to be used as an excuse to disrespect your spouse. Whatever it is that you're needing to complain about, it can probably be worded in a much more respectful way. Disrespectful judgements are a tool -- a weapon -- that, when used, destroy any chance for negotiation. You must learn to word your complaints with respect.

A good phrase to use is:
"It bothers me when ..." Short and sweet and to the point, and it removes any value judgements from your complaint.

I didn't go into every detail because I feel I already give too much detail... But visitation with his friends and family definitely factors in. I was definitely not "enthusiastic" about them from the beginning for the very reasons he's not enthusiastic about mine today - I didn't know them, we have different cultures, they don't really interest me, etc.

But I went with him, many times, every time, regardless and I was there for him important life events with them, I now know them and care about them, and I care about him having a good relationship with them because I know it's important to him.

So I'm torn - Am I "enthusiastic" about spending my precious time with these people? No. Not at all. But I am enthusiastic about him having a good relationship with his family because it's important to him to have that relationship and important to him that I be there with him.

If I take the situation with my family out of the mix, I would (and do) choose YES to pursue spending time with his family and friends
over not doing it due to lack of interest in them outside of my relationship with him. (I hope that makes sense.)

But when I consider he would never see my family again and his refusal to even meet my friends, I see it as a bargaining chip. True I'm not "enthusiastic" about spending time with them but I don't mind it - the real reason I would refuse would be to show him what it feels like. My motivation feels manipulative and retaliatory.

AW, I agree with you that those are wrong reasons to stop seeing his family with him. The reason you feel this way, though, is because you have made sacrifices and expect the same from him. People who sacrifice keep score and when the score is not even, they resort to demands and manipulation. Expecting him to make sacrifices on your behalf will not create a happy marriage, it will create resentment and incompatibility. This is why sacrifice is so detrimental to marriages.

Have you seen this? Resentment over Issues of Control, Dependency and Identity

Hey Brainy, thank you for the link.

Dr. Harley, thank you for writing this article. It makes me understand my 25-year interdependent marriage better.

When we meet eachother's 5-6 most intimate needs, we are inspired by our love for eachother, and we are motivated to meet the other needs, too, like financial and domestic support and family care.

I had not seen it but I just read it and I will read it again. I saw many things in there that I related to. Are you thinking that I am controlling (trying to make him do something) or that he is controlling? I am curious because I think of him as pretty controlling, but for things I have not posted about. Though I felt in the beginning he was controlling in discouraging me from continuing any relationships that started before we met.

I'm just curious. Regardless - reading that article started my head spinning about a lot of things in our relationship that are definitely not "inter" dependent. I am really glad I found this website because I'm starting to think our marriage is much more dysfunctional than I had realized. Or I should say our relationship while generally pleasant and harmonious has a lot of undercurrents and could probably be much more fulfilling to both of us.

I am going to print some of the articles out for him to read on our upcoming trip (that he arranged w/out my buy in and that I really do not want to go on, but I digress...) It sounds like Dr. Harley recommends reading LOVE BUSTERS first, then HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS.

Those of you who've been doing this - what do you recommend we read first? He will NOT have a lot of patience/interest for this, so I want to make the first thing I hand him really count.

That is very true, and I can see that now.

But it is also that I have a feeling of "if you cared about me you would do it because I don't ask for much and I'm telling you this is important to me." Which I reckon is another manipulation. But he says he loves me all the time and I know he means it, but my belief is -- he doesn't love me. He loves all that I do for him and let him do. But the things I care about and am interested in and have done in my life that comprise who I really am, he dismisses and rejects. So yes, he loves having me around (generally), but he doesn't really love me.

I used to do this a LOT.

It helps to begin at the idea that ALL joint decisions are POJA. If he isnt enthusiastic about my choice of Thursday dinner at home, or if I am not, then we consider a new option. Yes, "do this for me because..." Is the exact opposite of POJA.

Once you get into the habit and realize how it makes both of you happy, you learn to never scorekeeper again. Why bother making one happy and one resentful when you can both be happy? If YOU love him, isn't that better? Show love through actions and respect.

What you are saying here is that if he cared, he would sacrifice for you. But what you are missing is that you are showing you don't care for him by asking him to sacrifice. Asking him to sacrifice not only shows you don't care for him, but it bleeds the love he has for you.

It makes your marriage an unhappy place for him. Sacrifice ruins the love in a marriage. It creates resentment, conflict and most of all: incompatibility.

I understand you don't feel loved, but asking him to sacrifice for you is not the way to get the love you need. It has the exact opposite effect.


Do you care about your marriage? Who you are today is a married woman who needs to develop MUTUAL interests if you want to have a happy marriage. Pursuing individual interests at the expense of your marriage will not ever make you a happy person. But having a happy marriage will make you a happy person. And you can take that advice from the former Queen of Independent Behavior!

I am not the things that I care about, and I am not the things that I am interested in, and I am not the things that I have done in life.

There are lots of things in life that interest me and that I can do in life that will make me happy. There are lots of things that make my wife happy. We pick from the things that are in both of those groups.

I am not 1980's video games, or science fiction novels, or buckets of fried chicken, or camping trips to Colorado. I can be quite happy without any of those things. Those are some things I enjoyed a lot in the past but might not get to enjoy as often any more. In fact, I might even be better now that I have less of those in my life and more of other things.

Definitely go through Lovebusters first. Both of you have trouble with them, especially with Disrespectful Judgements.

You see, that right there is a Disrespectful Judgement.

Thank you, I will do that. I think it will be quite challenging because I am realizing we both do a lot of LBs. But if we can stop them that will probably make everything else so much easier. I am already thinking up reason's in my mind for why my LBs aren't my fault ha ha... help me........


That's interesting, because I certainly did not mean that in a disrespectful way or think of it as a derogatory thing about him. It's just a fact. There are plenty of things I don't have patience for or interest in. I don't think that's a bad thing.

He takes pride in his lack of patience/interest for all that he considers a waste of time and would tell you himself (if only he had the patience or interest...). This is the first time he has ever agreed to read anything that I asked him to read and I want to make the first things he see really count. If he gets value right away I think he will continue. But if he decides "it's stupid," that will be the end of that.

But for example in the past if we were in the car and I put Dr. Laura on, we could get through half a call before he would change the channel and say "These people are idiots how can you stand listening to this?" I told him about the 15 hours of UA and he fell down on the bed laughing. (Why I know I need to present things in the right order.) A little while ago I told him that according to MB some men don't mind listening to their wives tell a story twice, and he said "Are you sure those aren't women posting pretending to be men?" And I added that intimate conversation was a #1 need for wives if their husbands want them to be in love with them, and he asked "can't you get that from Susie?" so I said "Not if you want me to be in love with YOU." Then I changed the subject 'cause I was obviously not selling it very well.

Anyhow - I really appreciate all the help and advice and Prisca your posts have been especially helpful. I am going to get Love Busters and print out a few of the other pertinent articles. Thank you!