Unfortunately, DidntQuit, that is exactly the problem. I never was his type. He married me after deciding my other qualities out weighed my appearance. He thought he could change me once he married me. I didn't find that out until years later. And no, he is not willing to go on the show as you suggested or get professional help as Graceful2b suggested. He knows everyone will side with me and doesn't want to deal with people telling him what he should like and what he shouldn't. He does know I come on here for advice and expressed appreciation that I have been able to talk with him in a better way since getting this advice. He had been used to lots of crying and whining for him to PLEASE find me attractive. I have become stronger than that through this discussion forum and he has actually appreciated it...not my firm stance on things, but my ability to talk about hurtful subjects rationally.

Are you going to ask him to stop? I assume you have heard enough. Again he sounds like a wayward that conveniently changes history to justify the affairs and maintaining contrasts. He needs to make your intimate conversations pleasant. This subject is not a complaint it's a selfish demand and includes disrespectful judgements no matter how kind seeming or logical manner he appears before you.

Because I value openness and honesty, it has been partially my fault that it keeps coming up. He looks upset and stupidly I encourage him to tell me what's wrong even though he warns me. I keep hoping this problem will magically disappear or that somehow through discussing it, we will find an agreeable solution. The truth is at there is an impass. I guess I need to make the subject off limits?

Yes. It does not serve your marriage. Healing is only conditional when either are unwilling to give up the habits that allow yourselves to not meet one another's EN.

He is giving you an unthoughtful request, sprinkled with gaslighting and DJs.

He is not being thoughtful and caring in how he goes about getting his needs met. He has decided in his own mind, that he is unhappy because of how you look.

Another idea might be to have him fill out the Physical Attractiveness form in Five Steps to Romantic Love. Then send that to Joyce/Dr. H for their input.

Yes, stop these conversations. The minute he says something that is hurtful or disrespectful, then you should leave. His telling you that he made a mistake in marrying you, is very disrespectful.

A good litmus test is..... does this comment move things forward? Does saying this actually improve things?

I say this with much caring, because I have been there. By engaging him, you are not creating the space for him to seek help or to even question his own thoughts. You are feeding the "unhealthy taker". Just pleasantly say that you need to take a break when he says cloaks his DJs in the disguise of ENs. Don't try to train him by reacting emotionally and lecturing! End the conversation, leave the room, and let him stew on it.

Then at a different tine, as a SEPARATE topic, request that he seek help from a third party for his anxiety. Experiencing anxiety leaves no room for positive feelings. That is something that no amount of talking can solve. It is like when you're angry, and you need to calm yourself down. Anxiety is similar, only some people can't calm themselves down and often seek external reasons for this. Until he is able to do that, through medication or through GSR or some method other than using female objects aka models, your ability to make love bank deposits and have him feel them, will be limited.

When you dated, the other areas of need meeting were making love bank deposits, and he was able to feel them. So your physical attractiveness was sufficient for him, along with all of the other needs being met. It is very difficult to meet the intimate emotional needs, for someone who has anxiety and depression.

So back to the physical attractiveness form, I think it would be really good for him to write down his specific thoughts about his needs for physical attractiveness. It will either help him to see his disrespect, or at least to ponder what his true thoughts really are. It will also help you to get some objective advice about it. It Will also keep you from ruminating about it in your mind, and if your marriage goes further south, at least you will have that written down as a reminder to You, that you did all that you reasonably could in that area, to make him happy, and that anything else would have been sacrificing on your part and not a win-win.

OK. I'll take that conversation off the table. BTW, he did fill out that questionnaire back in August. He rated his need for physical attractiveness as a 6, my attractiveness as a -1, circled physical fitness and normal weight as an area of needed improvement, and explained "Increased athletic ability and stamina are attractive to me."
Anyway, I will ask him to not talk about that subject anymore. Although he might see it as a way to brush aside his "needs," hopefully it will help. I agree that anxiety and depression are at play here. Even he knows he deals with that and is frustrated when nothing but alcohol seems to help him relax. Bringing that up as a separate topic and suggestion to get help is a good idea. Maybe after some space away from this attractiveness subject, I'll bring it up.
Thank you for your help. Sometimes I just get so confused and then I think it's my problem and he is just asking me to exercise and color my hair. It seems like such a small request. In other marriages it probably is a small request, but in ours, it is a box of dynamite.

I think that if you STOP exercising completely, he will see it as outright unwillingness to try or choosing not to take care of yourself. You may find that he becomes extremely discouraged. I would encourage you to keep exercising as a good will gesture to meet that need, but not necessariy to get to some ideal which may be unreasonable for you. A depressed person will see your about face as a reson for complete hopelessness. But sometimes the good will act of making effort can have a positive impact on marital outlook.

I am not saying to avoid the topic. I am only saying to not bring it up, and disengage when the conversation becomes disrespectful or even unproductive. To avoid it completely could be considered stonewalling and is very hurtful.

I would just keep these conversations to specific times that are NOT during UA time. I would also suggest that you do active physical exercise during UA time. Do you do that?

That was my question. I don't currently exercise on a regular basis and had stopped exercising with him a long time ago due to him pushing me. However, since reading this book, he has made a great effort not to push me when we play tennis during our UA time. With the weather turning cold, we haven't played tennis. He would love for me to exercise with him on our exercise equipment, but not only do I hate exercising, I'm scared he will get an unfounded hope only to be upset when I don't achieve his goal. I really just want him to accept the size 6 I am.

Okiegal, what did he offer to do for you in exchange for this?


Wow, what a charmer.


Why don't you ask him to follow the policy of undivided attention with you - spend fifteen hours a week giving you his undivided attention? Otherwise, let him know he can forget his requests for changing your type.

There's no point to doing pieces of Marriage Builders if the most important part of the plan, the policy of undivided attention, is ignored.

I would make it contingent upon him following this program. Tell him that if he will work through the book Five Steps to Romantic Love with you, in order, and follow the Policy of Undivided Attention with you, that when you get to the chapter on physical attractiveness, you will work with him to meet this emotional need for him in a way you are enthusiastic about. By then you will have started to get a LOT more of the things you need from your marriage.

If he doesn't like that proposal, offer him this alternative: if he will sign up for the Marriage Builders accountability program and work through the whole thing with you with the help of Dr. Harley and a coach from his office, then you will let Dr. Harley and a coach work with you on meeting your husband's emotional need for an attractive spouse. Here is the link to the program:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi9000_program3.html

If your husband isn't willing to do either of these things, then I would tell him you don't see a reason for you to do anything about your appearance. Emotional needs are supposed to be met as an exchange, where he does something in exchange for what he is hoping to get from you. He is hoping to get something for nothing.

Eventually this "something for nothing" expectation of his will cause the end your marriage.

Markos, we had been doing our 15 hours of undivided attention with most of that time being intimate conversation as I said in an earlier post. If you are talking about going a day without talking, yes, when we are upset with each other, we don't get in our UA time. Not the best tactic. I don't have the book you mentioned, but we are nearly done reading His Needs Her Needs, so we can get Five Steps to Romantic Love next I guess. He actually meets all my needs except admiration, but has been working on that. I am starting to get texts throughout the day about what he admires about me. He provides for me financially, is a wonderful father to our children, and always holds my hand when we are out. I truly have no complaints but this one thing. He feels the same about me.

Oh! My comment "You've never really been with me." I meant that I've never felt completely loved by him. Like I was good enough just as I am. So, I feel like he's never really been with me...but just half with me and half focused on how I could be "better."

The Five Steps to Romantic Love is the companion workbook for His Needs, Her Needs and Lovebusters. You should get it.

Has he stopped looking at models?

Yes, he stopped models. Maybe I could try exercising again on my terms (when I want and how I want), no goals in place, with the idea that he is also working towards healing our marriage and not bringing up our sore topic.
I'll look into that workbook.

Dear Okiegal:

No advice, but I'm reading your thread with interest.

My H is not attracted to me, either, but unfortunately, the things about me that are unattractive to him are not changeable (facial features, chest size, proportion, some physical flaws due to illness, etc.).

He had the experience of being with attractive women when he had his affairs, and now feels an attractive wife is not important.

But, like you, I wish he would find me attractive, not just overlook my unattractiveness.

BV

I'm so sorry brokenvase. It looks like you have been through so much. I hope for us both that our husbands come around. In the meantime, what gets me through, is knowing God sees me as his perfect creation. No flaws. Just his picture perfect daughter that he wouldn't change for anything. If I never find that kind of love in my marriage, at least I can rest in the knowledge I have it with my heavenly father. May we both...and any other woman reading this post...never forget that we are truly beautiful inside and out no matter what our husbands might say. Of course I am going to try to keep myself looking nice for my husband out of respect and love, but ultimately I need to remember that his opinion of my beauty should not define my value.