And then you see the stuff on other websites that says, "Affairs don't happen in happy marriages. Men, if your wife left you, it's obviously because you're a jerk, and she tried for years to get you to change." Sounds more like it's a matter of poor boundaries to me.

***EDIT***

***EDIT**

Affairs happen in happy marriages all the time.

happy marriage + good boundaries = no affair
happy marriage + bad boundaries = affair
bad marriage + good boundaries = no affair
bad marriage + bad boundaries = affair

Dr. Harley says there are reasons, but no excuses, for affairs. Lovebusters and neglect can add to the environment that makes an affair possible, but they are not what cause the affair. The affair is purely the fault of the WS and his or her poor boundaries.

Sorry for the hijack, axslinger.

Thanks for those posts, LTL and Prisca.

yes Ax, i live in Nebraska(not a native)

I'm a native, but live in MO now.

Please don't post non MB material on help threads.

I'm a little late to the party but, speaking of WWs saying how bad the marriage was:

My WW just told me that she has planning divorce since July. I immediately reminded her that she had sent me text messages as late as September BEGGING me to not leave her after we had arguments. I could hear crickets on her end of the phone after that, totally speechless.

Yeah, fog babble. I've heard the same thing from my wife about the timeline of things, when it contradicts the facts. I don't argue these points with her in a direct way, I will usually respond by bringing up a positive memory of us together that we both enjoyed and say something along the lines of "I remember how in love/how much we enjoyed doing X together back in Y (date)". The memory is the contradiction of her facts, without being argumentative.

I don't have any verbal communication with her so I don't know how that goes over but just passing that along.

Good point. I try not to argue this stuff but to just state it as a matter of fact or ask a question about it: "If you were planning divorce for so long, why did you beg me to not leave you? Why did we buy a new house? Why?" I don't say these things in a whiny manner, simply inquisitive. Like I am trying to understand her. This method may not work well if done non-verbally.

Of course, I do drop the plan A ball sometimes. During the conversation I just posted about I was a little argumentative with her, she is trying to cry wolf to the legal system to hurt me again. She actually doesn't cry wolf, she cries harassment! I get tired of defending myself from false allegations, it's irritating.

I wouldn't even try to challenge her in the way you are, it's close to a DJ for you to say "if you felt X at this time, then why did you Y?". She will see this as you telling her that her feelings are not legit. It will certainly withdraw from her LB to counter her in this way. Dr. Harley says for BHs NEVER to be defensive in Plan A.

What I've been advised to do here by the vets who have won back their WW is to be a broken record on expressing your willingness to change in order to build a romantic marriage when WW starts this type of talk, and other than that I'd just stick to fondly remembering something rather than using it in a statement that essentially calls her a liar.

You'll want to bash your own head in by letting the BS go unanswered but I've never heard of someone debating their way out of a divorce.

Thank you. I hadn't thought that she would view my questions like I am calling her a liar but I think you're right. I have tried to say them from a genuine position of attempting to understand her and with the hopes that she will begin to see that her memory is mistaken(I don't tell her that). I have a difficult time recognizing when I am trying to use logic with her. I know that it won't work but I automatically use it; complacency I suppose.

You have inspired me to be more vigilant with my use of logic, thank you. I am feeling very worn down by her ridiculous behavior today and her constant lies. Perhaps I am slipping more than I realize.

Agreed. My WW told me she's been thinking of divorce now for 3 years, but also told me in the last two weeks, that before exposure she didn't want a divorce...

I just let that go, as pointing out the inconsistency doesn't help and she thinks I'm being disrespectful of her feelings now after exposure. You can't argue logically with the fogged out person, not and be effective, not without withdrawing more love units.

Yep, expect the reasons for their desire to leave you change. My wife's reasons before the exposure were completely different and since the exposure she's sort of adopted it since it is convenient to her now. Look at it as a confirmation of the fog, and remember the contradictions when she's trying to gaslight you. Not so you can argue with her, but to keep you from getting upset or depressed.

Yes, mostly so I don't argue. I have a tendency to enjoy arguing for arguing sake. I'm stomping that fire out in myself right now. As for depressed, I've taken the attitude that I can only control myself, not her (nor do I want to anymore), and regardless what happens with my WW, I'll be better for what I'm doing and there is hope no matter what. Lack of hope is what makes us depressed.

Do I want to recover my marriage with my wife? Absolutely. It's my first and I love and respect her dearly. I hate that she's hurting so much right now, and I can't help her more than I am.

I left a really nice letter for her this morning (along with a chocolate she really likes, and a pen she really needed for one of her craft projects and didn't have) apologizing for what I had done to her in our marriage (note: not apologizing for exposure) and that I was very willing to change. In fact, I want to change to a person she needs, wants, and respects without her asking me to and that while I'm not asking her to believe me, she will see the change of the next several months. I ended it by saying that I'll welcome her back and I'm dedicated to building a better and happier marriage and family. I also asked her to text me if she picked up photos I had printed at the store or if she wanted me to on my way home. Hasn't texted. No big deal.

I think I've lost sight of this since my WW called me at 3 this morning. She has been just as harsh as she was weeks ago since then. A big turn around from where I thought (hopefully) that she was. Once again I am to blame for an issue between her and her OM because I didn't keep it a secret. I can't just agree with her when she says that exposure was wrong. I think I get stuck halfway between no apologies for exposure and being apologetic for problems in our marriage. I think I will try to deflect any questions at all about exposure or anything at all having to do with OM. I will only take note of contradictions and not point them out to her.

I am going to be on the show tomorrow, I will ask Dr. Harley about how to handle complaints about exposure.

Great Topic.

LTL

AGREED!!!