Good plan

On Plan A...I really haven't been showering my wife with compliments or apologies. I think she understands pretty clearly that since I've become aware of the affair, I do not accept responsibility for her choices and to a large degree the validity of her complaints about the marriage.

Not because I've refuted those things as much as simply not acknowledging them when I've responded to her, and clearly outlining that I see the affair as our biggest obstacle at the moment. I've focused on demonstrating an elimination of LBs rather than apologizing for past LBs or making promises about them going forward. My ideal has been be kind or at least thoughtful in tone, say only what you need to say (which means I've ignored quite a few of her barbs about how awful I am), and avoid LBs in whatever I say to her.

The gifts weren't anything extravagant. Nicer stuff than the care pack but I spent less than half of what I spent last year on her. Creature comfort kind of stuff.

The RO stuff is worrisome. My WW's RO against me was granted ex parte and she did not even cite anything recent in her petition. The rest of it was either made up or greatly exaggerated. The court seemed to want to cover their own butts.

I think consulting another attorney is a good idea.

I should add that my wife's RO is on the grounds of stalking, which the more I think about, I'd think would be easy to defend.

Specifically she alleges I "coerced her" (???), "followed her from place to place" and "stalked her". Those are the only criteria she asks for the RO on, nothing about abuse or violence.

Unless there a legally broad definition of coercion I'm not aware of, I don't see how that can apply. I think she's trying to call the week or two that she had a GPS on her car "following" or "stalking". I haven't had any physical proximity to her since before the time frame mentioned on the RO, so I think her argument would hinge on proving that GPS tracking of a vehicle titled in my name constitutes stalking or following. This also happened just days after she disappeared from my house without any explanation given of her whereabouts or plans, so there was no reasonable understanding of a "separation" that was established. She even said in her note she left (which I still have) that she was only going to be gone for a few days. Long story short, I would think I'd have a reasonable right to track her in that context since I literally had no idea what her plans were or where she was.

Coercion might refer to the exposure, which she describes as false allegations in her complaint. That's the only way I can see the "false allegations" fitting into the reasoning she provided for asking to get protection.

On the RO....what do I stand to lose here if one is granted? We're already practically NC at this point. I get that it's on my record, that sucks, but I can't get kicked out of the house and I have no children to lose custody of.

Would it really affect something like property division in a divorce that much? I am a gun guy, and I've heard I'd lose my guns if an RO was granted.

Axe,
Does the RO make a difference from a Plan A or a legal perspective? I'm not sure it does.

Dr. Harley seems to feel as though your wife is a renter. And the RO follows along her desire to have an independent life. Her mind is made up at this point.

You are doing a really good Plan A right now. If the RO takes affect, the things you have already done will be remembered when her affair dies and the fog dispels.

But if she is the renter that Dr. Harley seems to think she is, she will move on regardless of the outcome of the affair. On the other hand, if she decides she wants wants back in the marriage, she will have a safe place to land. And she won't forget how hard you fought for her.

Point is, you've done all that you can on your side of the street. You can't control her. If the RO is supported by a judge, don't let it concern you.

These are all great points, thanks. My attorney wants $600 to defend against this and I'm just wondering if it's even worth the money at this point. There's plenty of honest men on this board with restraining orders on their record, it's not like I'd be in bad company.

It is your car, so how can it be stalking. You can make up outlandish things like she did, you were concerned the car might get stolen due to where she was going.

You have to fight the RO, it will effect the rest of your life, it will be on your record for background checks, employment checks, issues with gun permits, etc,

Always get another opinion, i consulted 3 attorneys before i was comfortable.

This I did not know. So from a legal standpoint, you have to take care of this. Do it.

I would stick to arguing that you were tracking YOUR car and not WW, if you can.

The RO is bad news on your record. You can be refused future employment. In my state, my WW only had to claim that I might be capable of violence (I have zero history of violence) and ask that my firearms be removed from my possession. If I hadn't been removed from my home the sheriff would have confiscated my guns; instead I was allowed to lock them up and leave them until the hearing. If I hadn't got her to drop the RO, I would have lost my right to own a firearm until I was able to get a court to change the order.

Restraining orders are an unbelievable disregard for due process and your rights. I was advised to go through the petition for the order and find every instance of contradictions made by my WW. For example in her petition she wrote: "He once pointed a gun at his head", then she also wrote "He has never made any suicidal statements or actions". It pointed out that she couldn't keep her bullsh*it straight, even on the same petition.

However, my RO was granted ex parte. Slightly different than your situation. And I had to wait two weeks before I could defend myself.

What did you do to get her to drop it? Bargain of some sort, or change of heart?


Good thought on sticking to tracking of the vehicle.


One site I just read suggested asking for a continuance so that the attorney can put together something solid. I'll see what attorneys think, but this might be the first move. Otherwise I've got to get everything together by 1/15.

In her last email, WW mentioned trying to access our old joint bank account. She knows that it wouldn't have money in it even if she could access it, so I tend to think she might be in the note-taking phase of ramping up to a D, perhaps putting together a case to try to paint me in a negative light. I'll be curious if she's been the same way about her arguments for the RO.

My WW's RO was not very well thought out and she did it against her attorney's advice. She used it to force me out of my house and away from my kids. After my attorney notified her attorney about it I think her attorney pointed out to her that it would not hold up in a hearing. I should have waited it out and let her squirm at the hearing but I was desperate to see my son and I made a deal with her to drop it and allow me visitation with my boy. In hindsight it was a crappy deal for me but my son was more important.

If she is going to file for D she is going to want to have as much info about the marital finances as she can get. I'm not sure that you can legally prevent her from getting that info. She may be more interested in getting whatever money out of you that she can as opposed to making you look bad.

Are you in a no fault divorce state?

Yes, we're a no fault state.

I'm not worried about her gathering info on finances if she's going that direction, I am more curious about whether she has a plan to file or not. She's been talking and threatening divorce for 3 months now, and the only possible reason I can think of her not having done so is her apparent financial problems. Her last email was sort of threatening about giving her what she wants or else she'll make things contested.

I'd think any exploration or discovery of finances is going to look terrible for her as she has checked out of paying for most of her bills. She might inexplicably think she's got some sort of ace in the hole to show that this is my fault, but generally our communications have gone like this:

WW: "I want property X and Y transferred to my sole ownership. Also, my credit cards B and C were used to buy property you have right now, so send me money to pay for them."

Me: "I'm not interested in signing over property at the moment. I will pay those bills if we can sit down and work out an arrangement that is safe and accountable for both of us. When can we do this?"


1-2 months later...


WW: "I want property X and Y transferred to my sole ownership. Also, my credit cards B and C were used to buy property you have right now, so send me money to pay for them."

Me: "I'm not interested in signing over property at the moment. I will pay those bills if we can sit down and work out an arrangement that is safe and accountable for both of us. When can we do this?"

And the whole time, these accounts of hers are in collections.

Meanwhile, any accounts I have sole ownership of are being paid on time, and any ones that were joint have been basically safeguarded and are also being paid on time. I haven't let anything bounce that I have any control over.

She might want statements from months and months ago, but even that is going to be unfavorable for her. She's spent 2-3x as much as I have this year due to her business failure.

Most people I've talked to think there's no real case for alimony here. I do have a retirement account with some decent coin in it, and my attorney has mixed feelings on it. It was established before the marriage, but most of the balance in it was contributed during the marriage.

Hey ax, how are you doing?

Well, not much new in my situation. Nothing from WW since the email in early December, very little from her family over the holidays though her parents both texted me before Christmas to say they would miss having me around this year and appreciated me continuing to fight for her. FIL said WW seemed grateful for the gifts I sent, but in the same message mentioned that they hadn't given her the care pack I dropped off before Thanksgiving until just now, so she got both at once when she was there for Christmas. It's a mixed signal to me and makes it harder to trust him, but both of them acted like she was only there for a few hours on Thanksgiving so perhaps they never had a chance and didn't want to give it to her in front of the others. My BIL and SIL's husband (the one I met with in October) also wished me Merry Christmas via Facebook.

I spoke with a second attorney today who also advised me to file for D and tried to assure me that I had no chance against the RO in a full hearing.

Just to clear this whole issue up, here's kind of the timeline of things as I understand them:

10/15 - WW files Ex Parte RO after exposure, Ex Parte denied. Full hearing scheduled.
11/3 - OM files Ex Parte RO after confrontation, Ex Parte denied. Full hearing scheduled.

Between November and now, WW appeared at two hearings that were started and then rescheduled because I hadn't been served papers for the RO yet (I can see this on the state courts website). I had been called by the Sheriff's office, but not served. The person I spoke to on the phone acted like I didn't need to worry about these papers because the Ex Parte was denied, so I didn't. Finally in early December the Sheriff's office started calling me like every 2 days until I went and picked up the papers on 12/2.

I spoke with my attorney either in late October or early November and I thought he initially told me that if the RO was denied as Ex Parte it would "wither on the vine" so I shouldn't worry about the full hearing. He says I misunderstood him (which is very possible) and that he was referring to a situation where a petitioner has an RO dismissed and then files a second RO.

SO, because of this advice/misunderstanding, I didn't attend OMs RO hearing, and for whatever reason it was dismissed. The state courts website does not keep records of dismissed protective orders so I'm going to assume OM didn't attend the hearing either, and without the petitioner present the default procedure is to dismiss the RO.

Both of the attorneys I've talked to act like in domestic situations in our jurisdiction, an RO is handed out like candy. I pretty clearly explained to the attorney today the facts of my situation and they acted like it basically doesn't matter. All my wife needs to do is appear before a judge and tell him she's in fear for her safety, and he will issue her the protective order regardless of the facts.

Now, I've only talked to family law firms up to this point so part of me wonders if they simply are advising divorce because it's a more lucrative proposition than defending a restraining order?

Am I missing something here? Do I need to try someone who just does litigation or criminal defense perhaps? Anyone with any tips on how to fight this without filing for D? I'm not going to go that route with a lawyer who doesn't have any confidence in success.

If it comes down to it I will pull that lever and file. I don't want to but the consequences of the RO outweigh the advantages of continuing to hold the door open for WW on my scale at this point. I've got absolutely nothing to be optimistic about from her since she's left. 100% negative feedback to anything I've done.

I speak with a 3rd attorney on Thursday but the two I've already talked to were both very firm on the futility of trying to challenge this without a divorce filing. In their opinion, offering divorce as a remedy to the court for the situation is the only way to get the RO off the table. Anything else is spitting into the wind.

The attorney today mentioned that if I filed right now and the divorce was contested, the case would not be heard until this coming August or September because of the backlog in our county's court system. Part of me thinks that is plenty of time for WW to change her mind if it's ever going to change, and if I file and the divorce ISN'T contested, it's all the better with regards to these property demands she keeps making.

Part of me thinks WW just wants this all to go away and she wouldn't contest if I gave her the vehicle she's asking for and a few things for quick cash like the guns she asked for. I'm not even sure she's aware she can come after my retirement account, she could buy 100 of the guns she's asking for with what's in there. I'll let her have all the guns if I can avoid splitting that up. The more I've started looking at our assets the more I've realized how one-sided this relationship has been with regards to financial responsibility. She has no savings, life insurance, etc.

Thoughts?

Get that third opinion, and ask about a criminal defense attorney. If you were never served, i thought there is a time limit on that as well.

It is true every jurisdiction is a little different and have there trends/tendencies. If you get 3 recommendations to file for D to protect yourself, that probably is a good indication.
But talk to a criminal defense guy also.

Axe,

I encourage you to email Dr. Harley for advice on this.
here is a sample email you could send him at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com for advice:

Dear Dr. Harley,

I have been married for () years. I am () and my wife is () years old. We did/ did not live together before marriage. We have no children. We are both Christians.

In () my wife started an affair and moved out of the home on (). Due to financial difficulties and other issues I had to close the lease on our marital home and move also.

I have exposed the affair far and wide.

In response to exposure, my wife and her affair partner have both filed for restraining orders against me. This litigation is pending. I have consulted two attorneys and they have both advised me to file for divorce in response to the restraining orders. The attorneys state that this will show the court the issues are being resolved. They state that in my area the courts will likely grant the restraining orders if I don't file for divorce and I am concerned that the negative consequences from a restraining order would outweigh the benefits of continuing in Plan A holding out hope for her to end her affair.

Regarding the restraining orders, I want to clarify that I have not threatened physical harm to my wife or the affair partner. I did yell at her when I first learned of the affair but have not done so since. Also, I confronted the affair partner at his place of business and demanded that he end his affair with my wife.

What are your thoughts on this matter? Should I file for divorce for legal protection as recommended by the attorneys? Should I continue in Plan A or go into Plan B if the restraining orders are issued? Also, if I file for divorce should I continue in Plan A during the divorce process if legally allowed to?

I was on the show a few weeks back. Here's my segments.


Dr. Harley advised me that he wasn't sure the M was salvageable and that WW didn't sound like someone who would agree to EPs.

WW emailed again today but mostly to ask for help again paying her credit lines. The credit lines purchased stuff she didn't take with her and so that's why she wants help, but she wants me to just send her cash and trust her to make the payments with it.

She mentioned the property thing again, but more of as a dig. Didn't ask for anything, but mentioned that our property tax assessment got forwarded to her PO Box and complained that she didn't own any of our vehicles so it was silly that she was listed on the property tax form along with me. She mentioned going to the county assessor and getting herself removed from our property tax account but I don't even know if that's possible.

Anyhow, no relationship talk. A buddy of mine mentioned asking her to drop the RO in exchange for help with the credit accounts. I could always get a lawyer and instruct him to ask for a continuance at the hearing. Short of that, I have no way of knowing how I could trust her at her word there. If she was being honest and just didn't show up, I could tell my lawyer to do nothing in this scenario and let the RO be dismissed. And if she was being dishonest and still petitioned for the RO, he could ask for the continuance and file for D in the interim.

Come on man you know better than to give money to a crack addict.
She is playing the woo is me card. Never trust a wayward with money or in the legal system.