Quick background. My wife and I have been married for a bit over 10 years. We came here a bit before marriage to set a foundation, but we haven't needed to come back until recently. The biggest issue in our marriage has always been sex, I have a very high drive and hers has faded away to nothing. A few months ago I came here for advice on how to handle this. The advice I got was excellent. The commenters essentially said that she was falling out of love, and we needed to work on that first. At that point I started putting a big effort into scheduling time together, having intimate conversation, etc. Importantly, I also told her we were not going to work on the SF yet. For about a month it worked great (she told me that she was starting to feel closer to me) until...

Since we had our first child about a year into marriage, my wife has oscillated between the constant overwhelmed feeling that many (most? all?) mothers feel, to mild/moderate bouts of depression. 2014 has been an extremely stressful year for us, and about a month after I started putting major attention on her emotional needs the mild depression she had been dealing with blew up into full-blown, rock-bottom depression. As a result, I was forced to completely abandon my efforts until she got that under control.

I have two questions for this group:

1) I need some resources for helping me to get through her depression. I've run Google searches for "depressed spouse" but most of the articles focus on getting your spouse into treatment. My wife has been very open about her problem and has aggressively sought out therapy and medication. I desperately need resources to tell me what I can/should do and to help her and myself get through this.

2) What should I be doing about our marriage? The medication she has been on for the last month seems to be working very well. She claims that she no longer feels depressed, and is making major strides at reclaiming her life and her role in the family. The exception is our marriage, which she currently views as my problem to fix. I see a great deal of symmetry in our marital problems. I have been working my tail off for 10 years trying to alleviate the overwhelmed feeling she has constantly struggled with, but now I can see that despite all my efforts I neglected her emotional needs causing her to drift away. She was ahead of me that she was thinking in terms of emotional needs (men are simple creatures), but is unwilling to acknowledge how poorly she was doing at speaking my "love languages" and how that contributed to the spiral that drove us apart. That is not an important point; I am willing to shoulder the responsibility of putting the marriage back together while she recovers. But despite the attention and acts of kindness that I am again starting to give her, she still shies away from me "knowing" that these are merely a cover for the insatiable sexual pervert that lurks beneath (disclaimer: that is not an accurate description of me). Things are better during the day when we are interacting normally and doing stuff around the house because my kind, well-intentioned self is on full display. But, as soon as she has any down time, I can see her erect a wall of distrust between us. Clearly, the marriage is a major contributor to how she feels, and she has asked me to be more attuned to her emotional needs. But, I am really struggling with how to break down the barriers between us that are partly emotional and partly biochemical.

Thoughts?

Have you read this?
What to do with a Depressed Spouse

Could you afford the online program? You will receive a coach and you will have direct contact with Dr. Harley.

A couple of more questions.

How much UA time are you getting?

What are her complaints about you?

What are her top ENs?

Off the cuff, I'd say she has a sexual aversion. Is it possible she's had sex unwillingly in order to be a dutiful wife or placate you? Some women blame themselves in the early days when they fall out of love and continue having sex, not wanting to say anything.

Having sex without enthusiasm can create an aversion which is difficult to overcome.

I think it's interesting that she was doing well until you became closer. She probably felt her desire would return with the feeling of love, but with an aversion its not that simple. It takes much longer and she probably doesn't understand why.

I've often wondered if a woman in that position receives mixed messages from her own body. Initially the attention sparks a tiny bit of desire - but this is quickly overwhelmed by the memories of the aversion.

I've seen Dr H help men overcome their wife's aversion very successfully. I'd certainly contact him for advice here perhaps by email. I know it is definitely a game of patience but his previous succeses would help reassure you you are on track.

I'm concerned you're mixing up different programs with the mention of love languages. MB has to be implemented entirely and without skipping one step. With something this sensitive you might consider the online programme with access to Dr H or counselling with the one of the younger Harleys.

Have you tried asking her what would make her feel more comfortable during this down time? You might even offer to spend it apart from her so she can relax.

Your UA time for bonding should be taking place outside of the house so time at home can be spent how she wishes without affecting the marriage.

Of course, she will probably want your company once you make it clear you're happy to be distant on HER request.

Here's some more good reading.

How to Overcome a Sexual Aversion

Tell us what you think.

The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage?

Not sure what a "lurve language" is, but most women will not be willing to meet a man's needs if she is not in love. It is up to YOU to meet her needs in a way that creates romantic love. That has not been done here.

I see you making a critical mistake by trying to assign blame. Blaming your wife will not resolve the problem, but eliminating love busters and meeting her emotional needs will.

When a woman is depressed, it is usually because of her relationship with her husband. It is very interesting that she became MORE depressed when you began spending more time with her.

Are you disrespectful? Demanding? Do you assign blame to her like you do here?

WHAT is causing her depression?


I think your wife has a full blown sexual aversion. That could be because of sexual demands, love busters, etc. It is very clear she has a lot of anxiety about having sex with you. This is because she is so emotionally detached from you.

Have you and your wife gone through the Lovebusters book and done ALL the lessons? What about the sexual aversion exercises?

i am very concerned at some of your lingo because it tells me you are dallying with other programs instead of working on this one. This one works, but not when you cherry pick and mix it with other programs.

Will she come here and speak to us?

It sounds an awful lot like the needs you are meeting 'around the house' are probably the non-intimate needs like childcare and domestic support. These are the things which are important to a woman who ISN'T in love. This is a woman who realises she needs a help mate but has zero interest in romance.

The intimate conversation - is it fun or pleasant conversation or is it relationship talk?

I'd bet my nicest shoes she doesn't have any biochemical issues. Women with children don't always make time to be in love. Simply being out of love is the cause of depression in many women Dr H sees, not even counting the additional problems of how they then have unwilling sex or face sexual demands.

I wouldn't do the hit and run style of posting you did last time, stick around and implement the whole programme. You can't fix this with just one aspect of this programme. Missing out any of the features is like leaving flour out of cake recipe.

Even if you've elimated demands, that just seals up one hole in the bucket. You still need to check the other holes and it takes 15 hours a week to fill it up. Even then you will still have to overcome the aversion issue. This has gone on for a long time and the prospects for you get worse the longer it continues.

Thanks for all the insightful comments. There is definitely a level of aversion present. I would have denied it the last time I visited because it certainly is not as severe as the case described in Dr. Harley's article. But she had a big epiphany in therapy about a month ago when she realized that she hadn't "made love" since the first year of our relationship (an exaggeration, but her point is solid).

The thing that gives me optimism is that I can confidently say that both of us have taken the "high road" at every opportunity. Yes, her aversion was clearly driven by my expectations for SF. But when I wanted more, my request was in the form of taking on more household responsibilities that in my (incorrect) view were the barrier to her feeling more amorous. She read these actions "correctly" and dutifully submitted to me because I "deserved" it. The word "demands" has been used a lot on this thread. The better word is probably "expectations". My demands were never vocal, and certainly never physical. But, as indiegirl astutely observed, I was devoting a huge amount of effort to meeting needs that did nothing for her emotionally. These expectations piled up to the point where she feels abused even if I feel like I did nothing of the sort.

Before I go on, a bit of history is probably in order. My wife has undergone major medical treatments this year. Nothing life-threatening (and, in fact, entirely preventative) but she has had four surgeries this calendar year that have left her physically and emotionally weakened. My mindset going into the ordeal was that this was an opportunity to fill her love bank so that our relationship would emerge stronger on the other side. However, she saw my efforts to care for her and manage the house as a demand for SEX NOW, which admittedly, was consistent with my motivations at any time when she was not recovering from a surgery. These perceived expectations for sex at a time when she was clearly incapable are what tipped sex from a minor aversion to a major one.

I don't think I am trying to assign blame. I have completely bought into the paradigm that our problems are the result of a negative feedback cycle driven by unmet ENs. When I came here in August, the realization that I had failed her ENs was hugely empowering because it meant I could do something about her low libido. I realized that it just takes one person to break the cycle, and I am completely willing to step up and do that at a time when she is not capable of responding in-kind. The ironic thing is that although she is a full believer in the Harley approach, at this point she does feel the need to assign blame to me. I disagree, but I don't think that is a debate that is worth having. I will accept the responsibility if that is what it takes to make things better.

But this also explains why I did the "hit and run" last time and why we will not be seeing my wife around here anytime soon. She is simply not capable of undergoing a "program" even for something as important as our marriage. From my perspective, it was a major epiphany to see how my actions contributed to where we are and what I could do about it even while waiting for her to recover. I am eager for her to make that next step to address this together, but I'll do what I can in the meantime.

FWIW, I don't think there is any significance to the timing between my increased attention and her depressive episode. That episode was most likely due to changes in her anti-depressant medication. Without going into too much detail, there is some pretty compelling evidence that this is what happened.

Then I can understand why she developed an aversion. yuck. To be expected to have sex in trade for housework would be revolting for most women. A woman needs 2 things to desire sex: an emotional attachment and the prospect of enjoyment. Doing housework certainly doesn't achieve either of those goals as you have learned.


It is good that you see this now. She didn't do either of you any favors by having sex with you when she did not feel like it. It made her more averse and very likely added to her depression.


Did you read the article about sexual aversion? I am unclear why you think this did not apply to you? It seems to me that it clearly does.


From what you have described here, I can understand why her marriage would be a very depressing place. Did you read what I wrote about Dr Harley's comments? The most common reason for depression in women is their marriage. With men it is their jobs.

Yes I did, it was quite illuminating and it will change my approach considerably. The only reason I think her case is less severe is that she does not experience the physical discomfort described in that article. Once she "gets going" she will actually enjoy it, even if she is unable to have any passion. I'm sure she is working through the aversion with her therapist (although, maybe not with the priority I'd like!) But my assignment seems clear, so that is enough for me to get started.

On a few occasions she has prodded me to read some women's erotica to see what it is that women like in the bedroom. Recently I did that, and maybe I was looking at the wrong stuff, but it was all things that I have tried to introduce with no success. When she revealed her aversion (not using that word) a month ago, everything suddenly made sense. She was unable to feel romance in the bedroom, so my efforts to express it were not received. But she repeated her request for me to read erotica very recently, so I don't think she has made that connection yet.

Anyhow, that is just details. The big picture is that I need to bring romance into the marriage. Although that is something I never did while we were dating, it does not seem like a big deal for me to shift my considerable efforts to more productive avenues.

Your wife is very hard on herself, I think. She truly doesn't understand why the desire isn't there and this makes her panic because she expects to give you what you 'deserve' unless she can come up with a reason why you don't.

It's not going to resolve e itself with erotica, or even therapy. You both have to get out of the house together. Anything less is whistling in the wind.

I'm pretty disturbed that she is having sex where she has to 'get going' and enjoys it without passion? This is why I think she's putting pressure on herself. The passion should be there before even starting, it should be effortless. Women rarely enjoy the act for purely its own sake, but for all the wonderful highs that accompany it.

She shouldn't be trying to 'get going' nor trying to enjoy it. It's not work.

But that isn't a symptom of sexual aversion anyway.



Aversions are not physical things. They are purely emotional reactions caused by trying to have sex without the pre-existing arousal required. If you read the article you will see Dr H advises women to NEVER try doing that as it is what causes the aversion.

It's like trying to get someone to enjoy food, when they are not hungry. Theres nothing wrong with the food but the answer is not to eat more but to create the conditions for hunger.

For all women, that's romantic bonding. If she had understood the love bank she would have refused to have sex with you years ago until courtship was back in play. But like most people, she didn't.

WHAT physical discomfort? Did you really read the article? The article describes a woman who has fallen out of love:

How to Overcome Sexual Aversion

The key to sexual aversion is an emotional aversion and she has that in spades. I suspect it may be connected to her depression.


That is a good sign. That means she enjoys the act, but is averse to you because she is emotionally detached.


I would go through the exercises outlined in the article. They really do work and were created by a clinical psychologist. Not sure if many therapists have a solution to this problem.


This is a good sign though. You need her feedback along with YOUR assurance that you WILL NEVER PRESSURE HER FOR SEX AGAIN.

But I would print out the article and show it to her.


Can you outline your plan to do this here?

I guess physical discomfort was the wrong term. I just don't see the exercises that focus on relaxation helping her because she is already able to relax enough to "get going" (at least she was the last time we had sex 2 months ago). Her aversion is not preventing the enjoyment, but is preventing the passion. That is my job to fix and I don't feel comfortable showing her that article until I can establish that I'm serious about establishing the passion from my side.

We've talked about her emotional needs recently and she is unable to identify them. She doesn't know if that is because they have changed or because the depression is masking them. When I started focusing on the emotional attachment at the end of summer, I started simple by giving her as much as my undivided attention in the evenings as possible and scheduling date nights. By giving her my full attention when she talked to me, it allowed the "oh, by the way..." comments to expand into full-blown conversations on a nightly basis. We were able to get the date nights up to about every-other week, which sounds pathetic, but we'd had a total of maybe 5 of them over the previous 10 years. She has been resistant to doing more dates than that, probably because of the cost. But these meager efforts actually worked. At one point she reported that she had felt an actual desire for sex with me, not a physical desire but a "closeness" desire.

I see those efforts as my baseline, but it will take a lot more that that to get out of the hole I've dug.

It was about two weeks ago that she made it clear that she needed more romantic involvement from me (there were serious communication problems here, because previously I heard her telling me to "back off" working on her ENs while she was depressed). I immediately started giving my attention in the evenings, and gradually started ramping up the "extras". In the last week:

Friday: breakfast in bed
Tuesday: I had to pull a late night at work, so I left a note with her favorite treat thanking her for supporting my dream job
Wednesday: Rare evening where I had no work to do, so I initiated a project for her home business that she's been wanting to do
Today (Friday): another note with her favorite treat, this time telling her that I'll be home early to pick up the babysitter (she doesn't know we're going on a date yet)

Tomorrow night I'm going to push for a movie night in the basement home theater. I'll also be home for most of next week.

Wednesday: I'm going to re-create my Xmas-eve proposal 11 years ago. This time with a note (written last night when I couldn't sleep) apologizing for the past and promising that I'll do better.

That is as far as I've planned. But I'll keep it going. I have to.

To me this reads like you have good quality time together, but you have poor quantity. If it's rare that you don't have work to do, then it's probably rare you can give UA. The focus on home location is a problem too. This is where your wife is a mother and where she runs a home business. She needs to start associating you with fun things. Getting her out of the house would be enormously beneficial to your goals.

I've heard Dr Harley say a woman has to disconnect from her children entirely in order to connect with her husband.

There's so much potential here. I can almost sense how easily it would be for your wife to respond to you in the right circumstances. In the current circumstances it would be impossible for most women.

Dates don't have to be expensive. You've courted her love and won her passion in the past. What did you do then? I bet it was more long walks and cups of coffee than hotels and French meals.

I love this idea, but would tweak the note so it so it is more about her than you, and phrased more positively than negatively. You've got this! Just a few hours in your company makes a difference, as you've seen. Smile and be confident.

I'd concentrate on the needs for affection and conversation. This is a good start!

The problem is that both of our jobs require a significant investment of time in the evenings. We do have a basement that is exclusively a "fun" space that we don't use much during the week. That can be a good retreat place, but you are absolutely correct that the barrier is getting her to "start associating [me] with fun things". For several years now I've been looking at her on weekend nights trying to figure out how to get her away from her desk and to do something fun, and she finally told me how to do it. She doesn't want me to ask, she wants me to force her hand by making arrangements for the babysitter myself or getting romantic treats (cheeses, chocolates) so that she HAS to join me for a movie night in the basement. I can do that!


She's actually a pretty cheap date, but the problem is that babysitters are not. The walks and bike rides are what we did together, but they are a lot harder when it costs $50 to get out of the house.

I'm actually learning on the fly here because I never courted her, she courted me. Seems like I'm due.

The apology is actually a minor part of the letter. Most of it is about how good of a decision I made by proposing.

What is important is letting her know that pressure is OFF. She needs to understand that you know she has an aversion and you have some ideas on how to change that.

I need to ask you, do you grope her or make sexual innuendoes? I have had a sexual aversion before and I can tell you that those 2 things pushed me away horribly. Do you do either of them?


The kind of "undivided attention" you have been giving her is mostly useless. UA time needs to be spend on FUN DATES meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. You need to set up 4 4 hour dates a week. Don't waste your time spending "UA TIME" at home because it is useless when you are not in love.


What it will take is 20-25 hours per week of UA per week in order for her to fall in love with you. Half measures will avail you nothing.


NONE of this will cause her to fall in love and the time you wasted writing this out could be better spent scheduling DATES.

Were you interested in using Marriage Builders? Because all I see here is Plan SmileAbout5XaWeek, the same guy whose best thinking has wrecked his marriage. You don't knw what you are doing and are not going to move this forward unless and until you start taking this seriously.

You want to get serious here? Then print this out: UA time worksheet and go sit down with your wife and start scheduling DATES out of the house. That is the only thing that will work.