Thanks to the lively discussion on the other thread, DW has now divulged the things she wants me to explore in future therapy sessions. There are two.

1) For most of our marriage I have been telling her that my sexual frustrations stem from my unsatisfying bachelor years. She has heard this enough times that she believes this is a roadblock to our future happiness. FWIW, I now no longer believe that to be the case. I knew that our poor sex life left me feeling badly hurt, but I did not know why and I clumsily blamed it on my history. When I started to do the reading on relationships over the summer and re-familiarized myself with the EN paradigm, it suddenly became clear that that pain was a result of an unmet EN and I would have been feeling it regardless of my history.

2) When DW withdrew from me in October I basically turned into a ball of rage for the next month. Now, I was careful that I did not direct that anger at DW, but there were a couple of incidents where I did snap and our oldest child was the unlucky recipient. It was these incidents that made me seek out the therapist. I'm sure these feelings of anger were fueled by the fact that DW's withdrawal happened AFTER I discovered the error of my ways and had taken steps to fix them. That left me with a feeling of utter helplessness, but I imagine it might have been even worse if I didn't know what I was doing wrong. By the time I had my first appointment, DW was starting to recover and I could see that we had a path forward. This meant that the anger was no longer an acute problem and so it got little discussion time in my sessions. But, seeing what I was capable of, it needs to be explored in more detail.

Sa5xaweek, does your therapist specialize in anger management? If you have problems with your anger, that is a good idea as long as the therapist is trained in relaxation techniques. If he/she does not have that training, it would be best to find someone who is or do this on your own using Dr Harley's suggestions and techniques. Many posters overcame these issues on their own using using the first 5 chapters of Lovebusters along with a galvanic skin response meter.

Here is a thread with several of Dr Harley radio clips - the first post is an entire show devoted to anger management: here

Anger management is a good reason to see a therapist. Dr. Harley does advocate against going to counseling to discuss the past, though. It is a waste of valuable time. Here is one of many quotes where he discusses this:

Did you listen to the clips in here that I posted to you?

Yes, you need to eliminate your AOs.

Every person has a history. In your thread, not once did you mention wanting to listen to your wife tell you about her life experiences and what it was like when she was young, before she met you.

There is richness in knowing, just letting her talk while you listen and focus on understanding her. Let her be herself, while she spends time alone with you, even if only 30 minutes each evening in the basement; make it every day, and make sure you're handling the kids if they need anything during your time alone together. If you are unable to go out together, some adult time she can count on, and tell you anything she wants to, and you just love her and appreciate that she is investing her time in you, and she's not on call to care for your children.

This is time for you to focus on her needs, and not pressure her with your own. Just listen to her and love her, make it a pleasureable time for her.

Don't mention your sexual needs at all, during this time, for a week, if you can help it.

She has feelings and thoughts of her own. A lover can listen and not draw conclusions, though she may judge you. Let that go.

She mentions you had an affair earlier in your marriage. This cannot be ignored. You need to come clean with her about this, and tell her every detail you remember, as honestly as you can, in order for her to be able to get past it. If you have secrets from an earlier period in your marriage, it's a no-brainer that your spouse has anxiety about sex.

I agree with your plan in principle, but there are a couple of points where the details matter. The UA is, in my view, the biggest missing element in our marriage, but she is not ready to take the steps (scheduling!) needed to address that deficiency. It has been over two months since I have mentioned my sexual needs, and it will take a lot longer until she is ready to address them (the only exceptions over this period is me reassuring her that she can take the time she needs to get ready).

You mentioned getting to know her past and my unfaithfulness, so this seems like a good time to talk about our history.

We met a few months before finishing our undergraduate degrees and very quickly developed our relationship. She was my first long-term girlfriend, and I was actually looking forward to graduation as an opportunity to move on and meet other women. As it turned out, our post-graduation plans would take us both halfway across the country to cities separated by about 250 miles. The understanding was that I would be free to date other women but, in practice, we saw each other frequently enough that this was impractical. Still, I was 22 years old and living in a college town known for casual hook-ups and I took advantage of the situation to have two one-night-stands. After discovering the first one, DW told me that the current situation was untenable and I would have to choose between a full split or full exclusivity. I chose the latter and then violated that trust with the second hook-up. Clearly this was an act of unfaithfulness, but to call it an affair is a major stretch since it happened long before I even considered the possibility that my current girlfriend might eventually be my wife. I don't think there is any value to recounting the details of two very drunk students shagging on the floor (as if I could remember them anyhow).

That account is probably overly callous given the ripple effects that incident had on our relationship. After a year of living in the separate cities, DW moved to join me while I finished graduate school, and a few months after that we moved in together. What I didn't appreciate until recently, is that those early act(s) of unfaithfulness (the first one doesn't really count) sewed seeds of fear into her about satisfying my needs for SF. These fears were exacerbated by the additional 3 years it took for me to become ready to commit to her in marriage. But during that time we were each others primary companions for, well, everything. That meant that there was ample UA time for affection, conversation, recreation, and SF. I feel like I got to know her, and her past, very well over that time.

Things changed abruptly after we got married, or more accurately when our first child was born a year later. Her libido dropped naturally as it does for new mothers, but more importantly so did the UA which would prevent it from ever coming back. When we talked about the "lack" of sex (we were still at 1 or 2 times per week) she would blame fatigue from the caring for the kids, other domestic duties, lack of adult time, etc. So, my solution was to take on as many child-rearing and house care responsibilities as possible and give her as much freedom as possible to pursue her interests and visit with friends. I can see now that this was a major mistake because it allowed the lack of UA and her unmet ENs to grow worse. But, at the same time I was growing resentful that all the effort I was putting in the help her had no effect on my needs. Another commenter pointed suggested that DW was very hard on herself, and that is very true. She could see all the effort I was putting in and felt like she was failing the family and relationship (and I was happy to accept that interpretation). Her complaints that I don't know her always confused me because we had shared our lives so openly before we married. But the lack of UA time meant that I was not attuned to her current needs and growth the way that I needed to be.

But there were signs that I was getting it wrong, and I should have been more attuned to them. I needed to find more creative ways to fill her lack of "adult conversation" myself. (Although raising a family in the Boston and San Francisco housing markets on less than $40k/year meant that regular date nights were economically unfeasible.) And she did occasionally complain about feeling unappreciated and the lack of romantic acts on my part. But, those complaints were so out-of-sync from the activities that satisfied her ENs during our pre-marriage years that I simply dismissed them. Oops.

While I was busting my tail to address the family needs that she was communicating to me (child care, housework, etc.) DW was a step ahead of me in that she was thinking about my ENs. Or perhaps that should be singular EN. But the quality and frequency dropped badly due to the fact that her needs were unmet and she was still was still fearful from my unfaithfulness over a decade earlier. This was the cause of the sexual aversion that she currently suffers from.

It all makes sense to me now, and I am desperate to get to work on fixing things. That brings me back to UA as the primary culprit and the first thing that needs to be addressed to get us back on track. She isn't ready to commit to that yet, and that is my current struggle.

S5, I think you have a good understanding of the situation and agree that you didn't have an affair. I can see how she would view that as dishonesty, though.

The biggest misses I see here are, of course, the UA time, which you understand, but also love busters and a lack of the policy of joint agreement. Your wife has explained that she regularly made sacrifices over the years which has been a disaster for your marriage.

The first step in pulling this back together is to eliminate love busters entirely. Once you do that, you will be in a position to start making love bank deposits during UA time. I don't know if you have the newest version of Lovebusters, but I would get that and focus on eliminating any angry outbursts. You probably don't need counseling to achieve that, but if you do, it would be a good idea to seek out a qualified counselor in anger management. Did you listen to the radio clips on the Anger Management thread?

No use crying over spilled milk, but is sad that you and your wife never used the concepts of Marriage Builders and find yourself in this terrible place. Better late than never!

Here The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

How is your POJA?

I honestly don't think that lovebusters are playing a role here. Everything boils down to EN and UA (I'll address poja in my next post). I described myself as a ball of rage for about a months time, but I NEVER allowed that emotion to affect my interactions with DW (although the poor guys at the gym bball court took the brunt of it once or twice, but that was in good fun). She could tell I was fighting through a lot and expressed appreciation for my effort. Anger management is one of my strengths. I've said that in 15 years of our relationship, I think I've had 3 AO. Total. I listed to a few of the clips on anger management, but really the admonishments from the group will be enough to prevent any others.

Pretty good for the most part. We are in solid agreement about almost everything. Of course, it is the exceptions that matter most. I'm sure that DW mentioned the role of POJA on our sex life. I could never understand why sex was such a struggle for her (literally, I couldn't even comprehend it), so I didn't realize that sex was a regular event where we didn't have joint agreement.

We also probably don't have POJA on my gym time. This was a major issue in the second year of our marriage when she was struggling with her new role as a mom and was (and is still) jealous of the time I get to leave the kids behind and go to work at a job that I love. At the time she was insisting that I give up my time at the gym as a sacrifice to her troubles. I told her that I was willing to do anything to help, but I would not give up the gym entirely. After that refusal, she came to these boards where the commenters convinced her that insisting on that kind of sacrifice would lead to long-term resentment and bigger problems. My compromise was to move my gym trips from after work (when our child was tired, hungry, and cranky) to my lunch hour (nap time). That has been the arrangement for the last 8 years, but it is clear that there is still some underlying resentment there. Now that our youngest is starting day care and (soon) pre-school I am trying to get DW to join me at the gym (which was our arrangement pre-marriage). She has resisted so far and I can't tell if that is because of lingering resentment, she is still recovering from her medical issues, or she is unwilling to put in the extra logistical effort (with the kid) to make it happen. I'm going to keep trying though because that would be valuable UA time.

Part of the problem is that her adjustment to motherhood seemed like a constant series of crises to me. After rushing around to put out fire after fire, it just didn't seem like there was any time to stop and think about what would actually make her feel happy. At the same time, I felt taken advantage of because no matter how much extra effort I put in, I got less and less in return.

That is a promising sign. Most people are able to manage their anger on their own. I thought since you were going to a therapist for this that it was much more severe.

Unfortunately, the people on the board at that time did not use or understand Marriage Builders. You were given wrong advice. The rule is to NEVER do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse. Enthusiasm is not necessary for you to STOP doing something that makes your wife unhappy because it never should have been started in the first place. The default position is always to do nothing. The greater risk of resentment would have come from your WIFE.

Sacrifice doesn't mean giving up something that makes your spouse unhappy. It means FORCING your spouse to accept something she doesn't like. That is what you did to your wife when you forced her to accept your workout schedule. She was forced to sacrifice, which led to her resentment.


If your wife is not enthusiastic about this, a new decision should be made and your exercise program vacated until you find a solution that suits you both.


Agree it would be valuable UA time *IF* the arrangement makes her happy.


And this is where we can help you the most. You shouldn't feel taken advantage of if you do things about which you are enthusiastic. Once you learn to use the POJA correctly, it becomes second nature and sets the template for future decisions. My H and I have been using the POJA since 2007 and we come to decisions very quickly now. It is second nature for us.

here

here

No that was for persistent, controlled anger not uncontrolled outbursts.

"Controlled anger" is an oxymoron because when you are angry, you lose emotional control. The goal of anger management is stop the FEELING of anger, because when you feel anger, you have impaired control.

And how does your anger manifest itself?

One thing that has jumped out at me reading through both yours and your W's threads today is that you BOTH seem to think you KNOW how to fix this and seem resistant to advice.

You are obviously intelligent & educated - honestly, I notice those are the types of people that often have the hardest time "getting" it here on the forum....because they can't get out of their own way!

You said you were a "ball of rage" and that your W could tell you were dealing with those types of emotions...well, that *is* considered an AO. Dr Harley's method of dealing with anger would prevent you from even letting those feelings roll to a boil anyway.

I looked over your last thread regarding the gym issue. That was not just a "POJA" issue - that was a huge IB issue on your part. Which is not surprising...problems with IB and not being able to POJA go hand in hand. IB was brought up in other instances (your mother's treatment of your W for example) and it was pointed out there was red flags for DJ on this thread.

Please do not be so quick to disregard the advice you are getting. Lovebusters have been pointed out several times on both this and your W's thread and it would be a *big* mistake to continue to dismiss this.

I just had a discussion with DW and we are in complete agreement that the focus on anger in our threads is misplaced. Yes, we have each had a couple of AOs this year, but they were such anomalies that they are water under the bridge by now. DW thinks that her AOs are a bigger problem than mine, and I can say that on a list of things that negatively affect my love for her they wouldn't crack the top 10 (I'd have a hard time even writing down more than 5).

Well, if you are experiencing ANGER, as you say you are, then our focus is not misplaced at all. You have mentioned being in a rage and just yesterday said you felt you had to go to "therapy" for your anger problems. [so did your wife]

The reason we are focusing on it is because if there are any anger issues at all, they must be addressed and resolved FIRST before you can move onto next steps. That is because anger will prevent you from taking necessary steps to change behavior.

If your anger is an anomaly, then what would be the point of going to therapy for that very reason? What has changed since yesterday?

I read through your past threads and my initial observAtion is that you and your wife never adopted the Policy of Joint Agreement.
I point to the morning workouts at the gym as the example. When your child was one, you went to the gym alone while she watched the toddler. You wrote she was not happy about that.
Years later, you write that the gym is still a source of conflict.

Dr. Harley does not support gym memberships becAuse a lot of affairs start there. The only exception is if both spouses work out together.

Drop the gym membership today and start following the PLAN.
10 years on this forum...you should know this by now.