But there should never be any anger, not even one time, directed at your spouse.

I was angry before finding MB and one of the reasons was because I didn't consider anger a big deal. However it is, because people are usually angry about not getting their own way and are trying to either passively or aggressively punish their spouse by being unpleasant for their not submitting to a selfish demand.

Anger makes a spouse feel like she should not complain, or she should work harder to please you. Sound familiar?

IMO one of your biggest tasks is to create an environment in which your wife feels safe and confident to make a lot more complaints. When you achieve this the guessing games of the past will be over because she will be giving you directional complaints practically hourly.

A lovebuster is a hole in the bucket in which you plan to fill with ENs.

If there is even one lovebuster, the bucket will never get filled.

Your wife is clearly not enthusiastic about your mother being involved in your lives. Can you support your wife in this? One of our most veteran couples had this problem, Markos and Prisa and he told his parents they would not be acknowledged in any way until they treated his wife with more respect. I believe they were estranged for a long time (while markos and prisca fell madly in love all over again) until his parents saw that he meant it.

It's imperative your wife feels she comes first in your life before ALL others. She gets a say on who is in your lives - that's PoJA.

If she is unenthusiastic about any one or any thing, that aspect must be removed. Telling your wife, the person with the power to make joint decisions in your marriage, is to 'avoid problems' with a mere outsider is to put her on a par with that person.

Surely your mother understands your wife is imbued with this power? She holds the key to her grandchildren and her son. What can you do to support your wife's rightful position here?

Please read.
The Mother-in-law Letter #1
The Mother-in-law Letter #2

There has been a lot of discussion on the our two threads about LB. That has not been my focus so far, but it is worth exploring. Rather than list them out, I am going to respond with a rather long narrative over several posts. In an earlier post in this thread (#2836513) I described the mis-steps I made that led us to where we are. This post can be considered the sequel to that one where I explain how her actions contributed. For several reasons I do not think the contents of this post are a good discussion to have with DW at this time, primarily because we are trying to look forward not backwards. But I think it would be therapeutic for me to spell it out.

A couple of months ago, DW asked me to tell her what, if anything, she had done wrong. While I have not had that discussion with her (again trying to emphasize future, not past) I have done a lot of thinking on the subject. The most obvious issue we have is the negative feedback cycle caused by unmet ENs for each of us. I see a lot of symmetry here in that each of our failures led to withdrawal and the continuation of destructive behaviors that exacerbated the situation. I think DW has a valid claim that this cycle was started by my expectations of SF in spite of her inadequately filling her love bank. However, I had no idea that she was still acting in fear caused by an incident in the first year of our relationship (more than 4 years before we got married). She still accuses me of having sex that is a) devoid of foreplay, b) �only about [5x]�, and c) �just f***ing� (rather than making love) despite the fact that the last 5-10 times we�ve had sex I have started by giving her 20 minute full-body rubdowns, followed by oral sex, etc. (there were lesser attempts before this that I felt were stonewalled by her, but it was particularly shocking that she continued this argument after I had clearly put the full focus on her). This total lack of her receptivity toward my attempts at affection played a major role in my frustration/withdrawal, and I had no way of knowing that it was all fueled by my mistake 15 years ago. But again, this is a cycle that I started, so perhaps her contribution is not as important.

to be continued...

To get to the major LBs for me we have to start earlier, much earlier. DW was raised in an abusive household. The form of abuse varied depending on which parent or stepparent was in charge at the time, but the common theme was that her parenting role models were terrible. I was aware of this history when we got married, and she had made it clear she wanted to do things differently. Unfortunately, when our first child came along she quickly (within the first year) adopted parenting tactics learned from her �role models�. Looking back on those early years, there were several features of her parenting that were particularly egregious. 1) There was no sense of proportionality. All offenses were equally horrendous and as a result the kids simply learned to tune out the yelling. 2) She did not seem aware that children start out as selfish savages and that all societal norms have to be taught by the parents. 3) When a child would misbehave, she would punish the child rather than the action. In other words, her rant would tear the child down emotionally rather than communicate that their actions were not acceptable. As a result, there would be incidents where she would yell at a toddler for being a horrible, horrible person for violating a societal norm that the child had simply never encountered yet. DW knew that this was wrong, and felt horrible every time it happened, but I think it was genuinely the only thing she knew.

DW clearly wanted to change her parenting style, so I was left in the awkward situation of trying to coach good parenting from her without enhancing the guilt and pain that she was already inflicting upon herself. Initially, I tried to provide balance to the situation by playing the role of the exclusively nurturing parent. However, this soon bred resentment that DW was the only disciplinarian in the family. I then shifted my focus to keeping the kids out of any situations where DW was likely to blow her lid, which gave me a nearly permanent sense of paranoia. This constant fear lead to several disciplinarian over-reactions on my own part that only made matters worse.

The most difficult part, though, was towing the fine line between allowing DW to make the changes she desperately wanted to make vs. enabling destructive behavior. Clearly my mother thinks my approach made me an enabler and this is the primary source of conflict between DW and my mom. But despite my mom�s impressions, DW was clearly making progress as she worked on one bad habit after another. Part of the problem was that the improvement was not constant. Stressful situations would often cause her to relapse into bad habits. A particularly stressful event in DW�s life was any visit from her MIL, so my mom never believed me when I told her that things were improving. (This would be a good time to mention that, yes, my mother�s methods were also abusive, and that DW and I are in complete agreement that mom needs to be excluded from our lives for the foreseeable future.) One of the biggest setbacks happened in the years after our second child was born when DW started having major hormonal fluctuations. For about a year her monthly cycle consisted of depression, panic, and survival. Eventually she went on a low dose of Prozac, which leveled her out nicely but extinguished the last remnants of her libido (a major event in our EN failures). For this entire time, I felt like I was constantly trying to anticipate the next crisis while listening to her pleas for help (quite literally, she was pleading to me and anyone else that would listen that she needed help surviving).

Now it would be disingenuous for me to claim that my neglect of her emotional needs was caused by this chronic state of household panic; although I was aware of ENs it was not a paradigm that I was accustomed to thinking in. But my assessment of the situation at the time was that the highest priority for my time and efforts was providing stability to the household. And I certainly didn�t have much left in the tank after putting out fire after fire. There is an interesting question about whether DW would have been more capable if I had kept her love bank full, but I don�t think that is a productive debate to have now.

After our third child was born, DW had a hysterectomy which put an end to the hormonal roller coaster she had been trapped on. At that point I saw a patient, nurturing mother emerge from DW that was the result of all her efforts at self-improvement over the years. There were still some issues; she still had a tendency to escalate conflicts with the kids, inflict overly harsh punishments, and allow a simple nag to explode into a rant detailing everything the child had ever done wrong (giving the child a sense of helplessness/worthlessness). But I was very pleased with the situation and viewed it as a vindication of my patience and efforts. That lasted for about a year until DW started her current medical treatments at the beginning of 2014. We knew that 2014 would be a major challenge and the hope was that our kids would be able to step up and help. It soon became clear that my/our efforts to prevent failure (and subsequent fallout) in the household had left the kids woefully unprepared to help in any meaningful way. By this time DW was starting to succomb to the stress of a slow recovery and relapse into bad parenting habits. She let the kids know in no uncertain terms that it was a huge moral failing on their part that they were not a bigger help. My view was that those morals must be taught and so we were clearly seeing a failure of our own parenting.

One of the strongest pieces of evidence for DW�s improvement as a parent is that her relationship with her children has gotten stronger with each child. She has the weakest relationship with the oldest, who took the brunt of her early practices, and the tightest bond with the youngest. By the middle of 2014, DW�s relationship with our oldest child (just turned 9 at the time) was in the absolute toilet. Neither one of them could stand to be in each other�s company, and he would openly cheer when she was not around.

Things started to turn around at the beginning of the school year. There were three things I can point to that led to the change. 1) The therapist we had started seeing recommended a book on positive reinforcement parenting that I used to transform our morning routine from the worst time of our day into a well-oiled machine. This dramatic turnaround had a major effect on both of our parenting toolkits. 2) I had three incidents where I used excessive force on the kids (one of which left to a visible bruise and a visit from CPS). I realized that the common element in all three incidents was that they resulted from a backlash from imposing overly harsh punishments (DW�s recent withdrawal was also a big factor). As a result, we dramatically scaled back the magnitude of our punishments so that our corrective actions did not result in a significant backlash. 3) DW finally recovered to the point where she could start spending quality time with the kids again.

I told DW earlier this week that I think she is doing an outstanding job as a mother right now and I sincerely meant it. She is even on good terms with our oldest child. I think it speaks volumes about her growth and self-improvement that she is doing so well in spite of the stress she is experiencing in her marriage and her lingering health issues. It also makes it much harder for me to list my LBs since most of them are related to parenting.

Here is a list of what is currently on my LB list:

1) Anything belittling the kids

2) Any nag directed at the kids that extends to multiple behaviors (fortunately, these are much shorter than they used to be)

3) Imposing unenforceable restrictions rather than take the opportunity to nurture productive behavior (i.e. �you are never allowed to touch scissors again�, or �you are never allowed to set foot in my office again�)

4) A general sense of helplessness from DW. Over the years she has constantly waited/begged for something/someone to �fix� her. Whether the issue is parenting, libido, hormones, or depression, she is resistant to suggestions for positive steps she can make to improve matters. Even the UA requirement in the MB program is an impossible task and not worth attempting. I had to twist her arm and convince her that our schedules are just problems and that problems have solutions.

5) Constant negativity. The ability to single out the one thing a kid is doing wrong on a morning that is otherwise going great. Or constant complaints about, well everything. (headache, back pain, any pain, kids fighting, too much work, not enough help around house, etc.) Yes, most of these are real, valid complaints. But I have devoted the last 10 years trying to help her get by, and all those complaints do is tell me that nothing I do will ever be good enough.

It is probably worth expanding a bit on the �fix me� point in the post above. DW has a valid point that she has been unfairly labeled as the �broken one� for a large fraction of our marriage. At the end of summer I independently realized that her libido issues were a relationship issue, not a biological one. A month later, when she hit the depths of her depression, she emphatically rejected the �broken� label that she had claimed for so long. While I believe this was a fair realization on her part (and, in fact, I had gotten there first) there are several aspects of this rejection that bother me.

1) At the time she was rejecting the label of the �broken one� she was simultaneously claiming that she was too depressed to work on improving our relationship. I find this timing quite ironic, but she still does not see any contradiction between these claims.

2) While I have concluded that the �broken� thing is our relationship, she has gone even further and claimed that the broken one is me. This had always been a mystery to me, but the aspects of me that were �broken� were finally revealed a couple of days ago on this thread. The part that bothers me most is that she is using my �broken� aspects as an excuse to avoid doing any work herself on the relationship.

3) While she rejects the label of being �broken� she will readily invoke her depression (or similar) as an excuse for her love busters. Again, this was the central struggle that I started this thread with; do I allow her to heal, or do I need to work on the relationship to make the healing easier? She seems to prefer whichever viewpoint requires the least from her at that moment.

You need to eliminate the porn use like yesterday. This is why your wife believes you will have a sexual experience with 'anyone' because you are! It's also why she believes you have an uncontrollable sexual appetite. Because you aren't controlling it ! Your wife should not be placed in a sexual competition with a multitude of women.

Your wife has a huge truck of porn placed on one foot and a huge truck of MiL on the other. While taking depression pills for the pain! Her parenting skills and ability to be positive are not going to be great.

Dr H predicts divorce for men who allow an atmosphere of porn in their homes.

Yes it is up to you to do the heavy lifting here!

Is your wife enthusiastic about porn use?
About the email you sent your mother that she didn't read or have input with?
About the phone conversations you have with your mother?

neither of you are enthusiastic about the DJ 'broken'

None of her business!

Your mother is an outsider to the marriage and I'm sure reports to her were not PoJAd.

I'm sorry, IG, you are just the messenger but you've touched a couple of raw nerves and a mini rant is coming.

How long do I keep having to hear about my mom, dammit? I have not given my mom an "update" on DW's parenting in several years. DW and I are in complete, total, and enthusiastic agreement that she will not be invited back into our lives for the foreseeable future. What else do I need to say here?

On a similar note, it really sucks to be repeatedly bludgeoned for the time DW carried the "broken" label. Not only am I in complete agreement there, but I came to that conclusion BEFORE SHE DID.

Finally, I can see your point on the porn, but I need to say my piece too. Porn has filled a void for me in the absence of a fulfilling sex life. I would give it up in a heartbeat if I thought that would lead to the return of SF, but it has been over two months since my SF needs have received any kind of consideration (from either of us), and for all I know it might be another year before she is ready to start working on overcoming her aversion. Sex is an EN for me. Without it I feel unappreciated, empty, hurt, and my self-esteem plummets. But it is also a physical need. Without a regular release I have difficulty sleeping, am chronically crabby, and am prone to more outbursts with the kids. Masturbation does of good job of addressing the "physical" symptoms of poor SF, but it does nothing for the emotional ones. DW has never been able to accept that there are two aspects to this need. She will grant me one or the other, though, depending on which side paints the most negative picture of me and most generous picture of her at that moment. I feel this is an extremely DJ.

During DW's pregnancy with our third child the time between sex started to extend to multi-week periods and I broke down in front of DW trying to make sense of the emotional pain I was going through. (This is when I inaccurately blamed my history for that pain, which troubles DW to this day). Our agreement at that time was that I would take all pressure off her for sex (through pregnancy and nursing) but, in return, I needed the freedom to alleviate the physical side of my need myself. This led to a big increase in the porn use, but it felt good that 1) I was not waiting around to be rejected every night and 2) that I could take some of the pressure off DW's obligation to satisfy me. The problem is even more severe now that DW has completely removed SF from our marriage. For a long time it has felt like she has used my SF needs as a weapon against me, and the last three months have been particularly painful. I need a regular release to get me through this period. A compromise that I could embrace would be to replace the porn with the erotica research that she has asked me to do. But I fear that she would assume I'm watching porn regardless of whether I'm reading stories or even just staying up late to meet a deadline at work.

And that brings me to the root of the anger I have toward DW. For 9 years I have shown her compassion, understanding, support, and given her every benefit of the doubt as she struggled to become a better parent. Why the h*** can't she extend three months of the same courtesy toward me as I try to become a better husband? For crying out loud, I figured out the error of my ways BEFORE she hit the end of her rope and started trying to fix things immediately. Why am I being treated as though I am remorseless and untrustworthy?

Smile, you sound frustrated. Who is right and wrong and all that only matter when you two were fighting. I am hoping that you two are no longer doing that, but instead working together now to make your marriage better. Have you reread the sexual aversion articles lately? I am thinking if you approach it like that, in a way that makes you both happy, that this will become a thing of the past very soon.

Give her solid reasons to believe in you. You two can do this!

See, if I was your wife, I would come to the conclusion that porn will always be a lurking threat no matter what you say, because at the end of the day, it is more important for you than showing the care needed for her to want SF again.

Smile, if you spent as much time trying to find ways to use this program as you did blogging, you would be in a great marriage by now. The benefit of this program comes from working the steps, not in blogging on the forum. A problem can't be solved by talking it to death. This is a step by step action program.

Do you know Dr Harley's position on porn use? It is a disaster to marriage because of the contrast effect. Men who watch porn tend to objectify women and the relationship suffers. Your energy would be much better focused on following the steps of this program. You have been here for several weeks yet it still seems you don't have a plan.

What is your plan?

In addition to this, what is your plan to get at least 15 hours of UA a week?

My plan is to somehow convince DW that the only thing that is "broken" is our relationship. And it can be fixed as soon as we both set aside the past and work on the things that we have mutually identified as lacking. This was my frustration when I started this thread and it wasn't until page 7 that I decided to start passing the time by writing about the past.

Last night I pulled out the UA worksheet and managed to get 8 hours of (mostly) UA scheduled for the coming week. Let's just say that we didn't exactly have POJA even getting that much. What is it going to take to get her to start looking forward?

Have you considered signing up for the MB program so you can have an assigned coach guide you both through the program? You would have daily access to Dr. Harley and he could help you navigate the minefields. I just think you and your W are going to need much more guidance than this forum can provide.

OK, the plan is starting to take shape. She is going to keep her distance from me until I get to know her well enough that I can never unintentionally hurt her again.

Time to switch to the Jack Danial's marital help program.

You are joking, right?

About they drinking, yes. But that is actually my understanding of her plan.