Probably 4-6 weeks is the longest period with no anger at all. Sometimes there is just a little bit and he cuts off the expression of it at least to the point I am not sure if he is just thinking about something he has not talked to me about yet or just tired rather than angry. Then again for a time it might get really bad with AOs almost everyday before it cycles back to a period of no anger. There has been steady progress over the years in reducing the kind of anger so I will take him at his word that yet again there is a new level of progress made hopefully taking frequency to zero.....but it will take a year or two before I will start believing it is gone for good. (I feel a little guilty saying that it will take so long for me to relax and trust but it is how I truthfully feel at the moment. I know he feels hurt if I tell him I believe he means it but don't trust him so not sure how that works in MB, but my giver has to stop contributing to the death of this marriage! so honesty, but hopefully respectful honesty trumps the possibility he feels hurt.)

If it happens again I am going to tell him this is one of the anger things that has to stop (he may not know where my line is yet)and will accelerate spending money we barely have on arranging babysitting so we will be able to get the 15 hrs UA prerequisite for doing the program with a coach and spending money on that too. I already told him that even if he does not fully agree to spending that money in those ways it will still have to be done because the other option is to separate and that would really take money we do not have to the extent I would not know how to accomplish it. I am already being conservative within our budget to try to pile up some extra. Not easy, but I am pretty good at being thrifty and creative so given time something would be possible. This type of AO would not get me legal support, nor would I get any support from friends or family due to their philosophies about what is grounds for separation.

Not that we are doing nothing in the meantime. That is just what I would do if he got angry again any time soon. The reaction plan will change as we work on fixing the whole picture and the options are different.

We are brainstorming and following leads that might enable us get babysitting for less cash outlay as that is the biggest expense portion and ongoing, and we are working on filling out all the questionnaires that can be printed off the website.
If he gets interested in something he tends to be thorough and it looks like MB is something he is interested in as he is watching videos from Dr Harley right now and looks very interested and enthused. I don't know if he would/will post here or if he would just go straight to a coach. I told him I was probably going to ask questions here so he may already be reading.

Can anyone tell me how soon in the level 3 program, the online program we are able to talk with a coach or participate in the private forum? If we sign up this week could we be in contact with a coach by the end of the month?

In the online program, you first have to watch an 8 hour video together. After you have completed that, you get set up and can talk to your coach. Then she gives you directions on how to talk to Dr. Harley on the private forum.
How fast that happens is up to how fast you both can sit down and watch the video.

Thank you!

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2476846

I need to re-read this every day to help me change my habit of dishonesty. It is a good thread. It explains why I thought I was behaving like a buyer doing all the investing via my giver and still feeling like a renter.

Husband is still reading MB materials. Not sure if he made it to the forum yet. Trying to give him time to process and not get impatient because I have been reading so much longer. I feel better already though, physically, so thanks MB. I think just having a plan for change helps. The stronger I get the more options become possible solutions. (Autoimmune issues that can get cycle up or down depending on stressors is what I deal with physically. Sometimes despite my best efforts to cope it gets bad enough to limit me in when I can stay awake, how much I can work, etc.)

One night was really rough as he had a lot of things to say in a hurtful way (but no AO which the responders here probably want to know).I think I avoided all lovebusters...no anger, no disrespect......and the hardest no dishonesty. I just kept coming back to the fact that things were going to change in some way. He can choose what he wants to do, but my side is changing. The end of that conversation the next morning was that he said did not know if he could change and if he did try to change he would never be happy again because it would change who he is. Once I reminded my giver to be quiet and that my husband needs appropriate care but not pity I had to literally bite my tongue because the counter point in my mind was honest, but it wasn't going to come out of my mouth without bitterness, disrespect, and anger mixed in. I reminded him that MB doesn't work that way, we won,t be doing anything he and I both are not enthusiastic about. He then said that was hopeless there is nothing we both would like. I just made sure he had breakfast and lunch and a hug as he left for work. My hopeless moments come when I wonder if he will change not if we can. I know from our worksheets there are many things we will easily both be enthusiastic about. I guess the other things he is thinking of seem more important to him.




I wanted to come and ask you all what comes next that same day, but did not have time and energy to get it done.
Since then at bedtime one night it seemed he was going to go to bed on the couch and I went and asked him if he was coming to bed. He said he wasn't sure if he should and I said as far as I was concerned he was welcome and I think it would be good if we did continue to share the same bed. Then he says I have something to tell you and proceeds to look embarrassed and wood not continue. I start saying is it this is it that and he laughed at the extreme things I was saying and then he says it is that he was reading something on MB and realised the man in the story was like him and realised it was awful behavior. He was truly apologetic and remorseful. I thanked him and said yes, I have been hurt. Those things are in the past and we don,t have to deal with them again if the behavior and habits change. Anyway, it seems like we both got some lovebank deposits and it is lighter mood around here, but been busy and no time together really since then.


Please, does this sound normal? Am I missing any big important parts of the MB plan?

I need this to work. I want to do the plan and do it right because I believe it will save the marriage and make it better than we can imagine at the moment. He said he can't imagine putting our kids through a separation. I replied that I can not either, but I am at the point I think that it would be healthier for them if we do that than to continue without change the way things have been. It breaks my heart to think of separating for every reason except that that pain is slightly less than the pain and destruction of continuing our current mode of operation. I only think about it enough to keep me focused on the action steps and keep walking through the reasons to be firm and consistent.

Throw me any help you can.
I know it is going to be hard very soon when we talk about the questionnaires. At this point I am still waiting to POJA any decision to get accountability through program 3 so posting here is the best way I know to make sure I stay on track and follow through.

This is why 'do nothing' is so important. Don't ever go through a painful negotiation. Ever! Do nothing until your husband approaches you with cheerfulness and enthusiasm.

Don't compromise health and safety. Feed, clothe and shelter your kids and self, but with everything else make it very clear you are WAITING for enthusiastic options. You even refuse to do it your way and let him capitulate. You can go without!

Doing nothing is a problem, but it will quickly become your husband's problem. It will drive him crazy but it is his own lack of effort to blame - you're not forcing anything on him.

Far too much debate from you - you need to draw a harder line. It sounds like you are trying to persuade him to consider you when all you have to say is 'no'. Try using one sentence only each time that happens.

'I will not be told I only have one option'

'I will not have it. I am not being controlled and told what to do'.

'I can do nothing until you are willing to negotiate cheerfully and pleasantly with me so I can choose another option you'd like'

I'm not discussing your demand because I said no.

If he says anything about 'your way' just don't respond. Not pushing for a resolution is the best response to that.

He's giving in periodically because he thinks he gets his way next time. Most people 'take turns' before they come here.

Ok. I see your point, Indie. Sounds smart.

My concern is that he will feel I am dismissing, and disrespecting him if I use one sentence responses like those examples. It would be a chance to see how serious he is about never having an AO again for sure.

And it stings to see that you are exactly right in that I am trying to persuade him to consider me at all. I did not see it quite that way before. Even his latest concern is the children and how he feels embarrassed and ashamed.

The do nothing thing..... what do I do when (if it is something he thinks needs to be done badly enough) he goes ahead and does it either how he wants or how he guesses (not very often correctly) I want without poja-ing it first.

or when he asks why it isn't,t done just respond "we never cheerfully and enthusiastically negotiated a plan." ???? Then what?

But you arent dismissing HIM, you are dismissing the order. You can smile and invite him to come back with four other options AFTER you've been firm you are absolutely not willing to be browbeaten into a single option command.

Dont persuade him, invite him. Then walk away and let him decide for himself. Otherwise you are browbeating him too.

Let him know you are not happy with any independent behaviour if he commits any. However the first step is not to aid and abet the IB, so I would concentrate on not agreeing reluctantly first. Stand firm with a no and if he doesn't accept it and acts, then report a complaint - briefly, don't debate it.

The important thing us to break the cycle where he makes a reluctant agreement then forces you to. He feels this is fair.

He would start to feel uncomfortable with his IB if you refused to play sacrifice ball and were making it clear you find it unacceptable.

Don't try to persuade him of that, just report that it's your opinion.

Has he had anymore AOs?

No.

It might be no AOs as part of the old habit of having pushed a line that shook him a little and then not having anymore for a few weeks. If that is it, then AOs will come around again. But I have a plan to fall back to if that happens so even though I don't feel completely hopeful that AOs are gone for good, I also don't feel trapped in a cyclical pattern.

He is reading the chapter on AOs in the book Love Busters repeatedly and I know he has listened to the radio show several days. I think he heard me that I am resolved this is the end of it one way or another. He has expressed embarrassment and shame that he was acting like that on two occasions now. I know that can't be the end of steps to build a better marriage, but it is a beginning. I am ready to participate in change! I am going to ask him this weekend how he would feel about posting on the forum.

Made some contacts for babysitting. Hopeful that something can be settled soon for regularly scheduled childcare. We will need time alone, and not just after bedtime or during kid tv time to continue with MB principles. (our kids are toddler to hitting puberty age. More than 3 kids. Trying to be vague and maintain anonymity , but it might help you all give advice if you have an idea of the dynamics here)

You are right. I've been short circuiting negotiations by not allowing him to come to the negotiating table on his own initiative. My bad there. He's got to want to POJA before we can make it work. I can't use persuasion/ offer alternate options if he doesn't want to negotiate. Offering alternatives just comes across as dueling dictator status.

Hi everyone
I am the man in question in this thread. I make no excuse for my behavior. I deserve the criticism posted here and can only hang my head in shame. I know that I have an anger problem, have known it for a long time and have made attempts to deal with it. Guess I can't do it on my own.

So I make this public declaration: I am done with ungodly anger and am fully committed to do what it takes to make a good marriage.

Welcome to MB. It would be a good idea to start your own thread so you can get help with your questions.

Today's radio show had a good question and answer for the spouse of someone who has had the habit of AOs and is trying to move forward with other parts of MB principles.

Glad to see you post. As brain hurts suggested it would be good for you to start your own post so you can ask questions. I am here still learning myself (as a man) and I have witness the folks here help a lot of folks as they have been doing this a long time.