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About they drinking, yes. But that is actually my understanding of her plan. When I suggested a plan, I was suggesting one that would save your marriage by implementing these principles. Creating distance will not save your marriage. You know, having a great marriage is not like playing pool with your eyes closed. It does not happen by magic or by accident. There is a very narrow path to a good marriage. I think it is important to understand and accept that those of us who come here with bad marriages have no expertise in fixing marriages. Our best thinking ruined our marriages. I only knew how to WRECK my marriage. You and your wife only know how to wreck marriages. I am asking you to accept that you don't know what you are doing and try the steps in Marriage Builders. Put aside your own failed ideas, open your minds, and try a plan that really does work. It is your only hope. START HERE: How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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No use lecturing me. That is her plan not mine. For some reason it doesn't occur to her that it is impossible for me to know her better if she keeps her distance.
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No use lecturing me. That is her plan not mine. For some reason it doesn't occur to her that it is impossible for me to know her better if she keeps her distance. Gotcha. And I really was writing that for your wife. I just wasn't sure if you had bought into that "Plan X" yourself.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I'm getting tired of requests from DW that have the clarity of an ancient prophecy.
Obviously I'm the logical one in the family.
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I'm getting tired of requests from DW that have the clarity of an ancient prophecy.
Obviously I'm the logical one in the family. Don't DJ. I get you are frustrated but insults are off the table in this. I am trying to reach her about her wordiness and attitude.
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I'm getting tired of requests from DW that have the clarity of an ancient prophecy.
Obviously I'm the logical one in the family. Very disrespectful!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Did you get the book Lovebusters like I suggested?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I'm sorry, IG, you are just the messenger but you've touched a couple of raw nerves and a mini rant is coming.
How long do I keep having to hear about my mom, dammit? I have not given my mom an "update" on DW's parenting in several years. DW and I are in complete, total, and enthusiastic agreement that she will not be invited back into our lives for the foreseeable future. What else do I need to say here?
On a similar note, it really sucks to be repeatedly bludgeoned for the time DW carried the "broken" label. Not only am I in complete agreement there, but I came to that conclusion BEFORE SHE DID.
Finally, I can see your point on the porn, but I need to say my piece too. Porn has filled a void for me in the absence of a fulfilling sex life. I would give it up in a heartbeat if I thought that would lead to the return of SF, but it has been over two months since my SF needs have received any kind of consideration (from either of us), and for all I know it might be another year before she is ready to start working on overcoming her aversion. Sex is an EN for me. Without it I feel unappreciated, empty, hurt, and my self-esteem plummets. But it is also a physical need. Without a regular release I have difficulty sleeping, am chronically crabby, and am prone to more outbursts with the kids. Masturbation does of good job of addressing the "physical" symptoms of poor SF, but it does nothing for the emotional ones. DW has never been able to accept that there are two aspects to this need. She will grant me one or the other, though, depending on which side paints the most negative picture of me and most generous picture of her at that moment. I feel this is an extremely DJ.
During DW's pregnancy with our third child the time between sex started to extend to multi-week periods and I broke down in front of DW trying to make sense of the emotional pain I was going through. (This is when I inaccurately blamed my history for that pain, which troubles DW to this day). Our agreement at that time was that I would take all pressure off her for sex (through pregnancy and nursing) but, in return, I needed the freedom to alleviate the physical side of my need myself. This led to a big increase in the porn use, but it felt good that 1) I was not waiting around to be rejected every night and 2) that I could take some of the pressure off DW's obligation to satisfy me. The problem is even more severe now that DW has completely removed SF from our marriage. For a long time it has felt like she has used my SF needs as a weapon against me, and the last three months have been particularly painful. I need a regular release to get me through this period. A compromise that I could embrace would be to replace the porn with the erotica research that she has asked me to do. But I fear that she would assume I'm watching porn regardless of whether I'm reading stories or even just staying up late to meet a deadline at work.
And that brings me to the root of the anger I have toward DW. For 9 years I have shown her compassion, understanding, support, and given her every benefit of the doubt as she struggled to become a better parent. Why the h*** can't she extend three months of the same courtesy toward me as I try to become a better husband? For crying out loud, I figured out the error of my ways BEFORE she hit the end of her rope and started trying to fix things immediately. Why am I being treated as though I am remorseless and untrustworthy? An angry rant towards your wife is the response to the very idea of eliminating a sexual outlet? Really? Get the Lovebusters book and figure out how to eliminate these things before you find yourself completely free to pursue porn. Don't see any mention of you decision regarding porn? OK, the plan is starting to take shape. She is going to keep her distance from me until I get to know her well enough that I can never unintentionally hurt her again.
Time to switch to the Jack Danial's marital help program. Is this snarkiness supposed to convince your wife that you are a pleasant person to date? This kind of attitude is not going to get you any dates; not now and not in the near future when you will find yourself divorced. If you have never pulled your finger out in your life before and figured out how to court a lady respectfully, pleasantly and with patience then I suggest to you that now is the time. Not. Sexy. At. All. Sex is an EN for me. Without it I feel unappreciated, empty, hurt, and my self-esteem plummets.? You know full well that a porn actress cannot do anything for your ego. I'm not going to go easy on you here because I feel the EXACT same way about sex and I tanked my marriage. The needs of SF and admiration frequently go hand in hand. Genuine desire equates to admiration and a lack of it makes us feel like unlovely and unloved sloths. I had an anger issue pre-MB too. Sexual aversion is also something that can happen to men and I actually managed to pull that feat off by exhibiting a simmering anger and frustration which automatically turned any sexual request into a demand. There was nothing wrong with my ex husband's sex dive when he was away from expectations and demands as his subsequent affair proved. It may alarm you to know that your wife could easily enjoy a sexual relationship with someone new if she wanted to. But I fear that she would assume I'm watching porn regardless of whether I'm reading stories or even just staying up late to meet a deadline at work. Your internet usage should be completely transparent to your wife and you should not be staying up late without her. Of course it would cause her anxiety.
Last edited by indiegirl; 01/05/15 04:10 AM.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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We had a long talk last night. The bottom line is that because I hurt her (the acts that caused her sexual aversion) despite my good intentions the entire time, there must be a monster inside of me (her word). That means that I cannot be trusted because I have the capacity to cause great pain unknowingly. The irony is that I'd probably be better off if I'd had an affair because she'd view a conscious act to inflict pain to be more under my control than my ill-fated attempts to bring happiness.
What I wanted to say to her, but restrained myself, was that for most of our marriage she was the monster in the family. I lived in constant fear of the emotional damage she was doing to the children with her abusive rants. But, I could see that she wanted to change and I gave her the time and support she needed to make that happen. And, yes, this was a major LB for me and greatly affected our marital dynamic (but certainly was not the sole culprit). I hope that eventually she can grant me that same opportunity to change.
Here is the plan. We we go back to the peaceful coexistence we have created over the last month. I will continue to be the best father I can be, bring her the same laughter I always have in our casual interactions, and try to show her my love in as many non-threatening ways as possible. Eventually, she will move past the acute suffering that these realizations have caused and will start to see me as the husband and parent that she used to vociferously defend against all accusations (as recently as a year ago) rather than the man who allowed his sexual frustrations to blind him to the pain he was causing. At that point we will progress into UA, fulfilling ENs, and repairing our marriage.
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Chin up. We've seen loads of withdrawn wives won around.
Is it possible to get Dr Hs help while doing that? My concern is the whole 'causing pain unknowingly'thing. If she's gone back into her clamshell she is unlikely to give you good pointers of what causes her pain. She needs some way to give you helpful complaints without the two of you getting into long drawn out discussions.
He may also be able to suggest a way to get her interested in the UA time without you needing to be one to bang that drum.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Chin up. We've seen loads of withdrawn wives won around.
Is it possible to get Dr Hs help while doing that? My concern is the whole 'causing pain unknowingly'thing. If she's gone back into her clamshell she is unlikely to give you good pointers of what causes her pain. She needs some way to give you helpful complaints without the two of you getting into long drawn out discussions.
He may also be able to suggest a way to get her interested in the UA time without you needing to be one to bang that drum. Thanks. I needed that. She's winnable too. I was her hero for 15 years and I've only been a monster for less than 4 months (and somewhere in-between for 8 months). In five years it will definitely be easier for her to remember the 15 years. I just need to give her a reason to forget the present. Your concern is well-placed. I've been thinking about the unspeakably horrible acts that she rattled off against me last night, and the common thread is that they were worse examples of bad practices that I/we had grown accustomed to due to years of bad habits and bad communication. I didn't know I had crossed a line (and really, she probably didn't either until she put it all together 6 months later).
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He may also be able to suggest a way to get her interested in the UA time without you needing to be one to bang that drum. I was very withdrawn while we did the MB program me with Jennifer and my XH was encouraged to get me interested in UA time by suggesting things that I would like to do rather than things he would like to do. That was such a totally novel concept for him that he almost passed out at the idea.
3 adult children
Divorced - he was a serial adulterer
Now remarried, thank you MB
(formerly lied_to_again)
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I was very withdrawn while we did the MB program me with Jennifer and my XH was encouraged to get me interested in UA time by suggesting things that I would like to do rather than things he would like to do.
That was such a totally novel concept for him that he almost passed out at the idea. At this point I don't even think she could identify things that she likes to do.
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No, you won't get any help or suggestions from her as to how to meet her needs. That's what being in the state of withdrawal means. It means blocking all attempts because the person has become afraid of closeness. I can tell your wife is very afraid of feeling in love with you and having those feelings hurt.
She can't help feeling withdrawn any more than she would be able to help feeling in love.
If you can eliminate all lovebusters and project calm and cheerfulness even when things are going terribly wrong she will come to disassociate her fear.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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I was very withdrawn while we did the MB program me with Jennifer and my XH was encouraged to get me interested in UA time by suggesting things that I would like to do rather than things he would like to do.
That was such a totally novel concept for him that he almost passed out at the idea. At this point I don't even think she could identify things that she likes to do. Correct, YOU are going to have to come up with the ideas. As Indie says, you will not get help or suggestions from her. I was Little Miss No and I am sure your DW is the same. We women can get many of our needs met by our children, especially affection. When we are withdrawn, this seems far more appealing than spending time with our spouse. Entice her with something you know she wants to do, be creative. Arrange the entire thing and be careful not to phrase this as something you are doing for her, because that will make her run a mile.
3 adult children
Divorced - he was a serial adulterer
Now remarried, thank you MB
(formerly lied_to_again)
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DW is destroying herself for hurting me the other night. I have sent her two email explaining that, while hurt, I am sincerely grateful that she opened up to me. I sincerely believe this, because otherwise I would have had to suffer through many more months of her telling me "you don't get it" or "you're not ready yet". As far as I'm concerned, Sunday night was just ripping the band-aid off quickly.
I left her a sweet gesture this morning when I left for work to show her there are no hard feelings. While I'm rather proud of this one, I'm worried about what will happen when she finds it. I really screwed up on my goodbyes on the way out the door (being encouraging when I should have been understanding, and vice versa).
I should be her rock during this hard time and it is killing me that she won't let me help.
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I also realize that I have to give up going to the gym. This one really does make me angry. The gym does not interfere with anything I do for the family (it is during my lunch break) and there is no risk of an affair at this gym (not unless I develop a thing for octogenarian men). She resents my gym time only because I get to have a release during a time when she is suffering. I want to involve her in my workouts (which we have done and she enjoyed in the past), but she is still recovering physically and can't do that yet. In other words, she is just trying to drag me down with her. I will do it, but it makes me very angry.
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I also realize that I have to give up going to the gym. This one really does make me angry. The gym does not interfere with anything I do for the family (it is during my lunch break) and there is no risk of an affair at this gym (not unless I develop a thing for octogenarian men). She resents my gym time only because I get to have a release during a time when she is suffering. I want to involve her in my workouts (which we have done and she enjoyed in the past), but she is still recovering physically and can't do that yet. In other words, she is just trying to drag me down with her. I will do it, but it makes me very angry. You don't have to do anything. But if you want to have a happy marriage, you need to stop doing things that cause resentment in your marriage. Your marriage is on the rocks and it is critical you stop the blood letting. I can't believe anyone would crazy enough to put the gym before the feelings of his spouse. How well has that worked for you? Isn't there enough resentment in your home? Ask your wife how she would feel about you working out at home? Negotiate a workout schedule at home with her.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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