Oh that's right, thanks Prisca.

Will your H come back to his thread?

I think he will.



We had a nice hour last night of IC despite outing the above poja failure ......and I believe we even had what is POJA conversation about other things. To me this is a great step forward. The suggestion to leave negotiating the conflict that was painful for later and knowing that we will come back to it and when we do we can discuss via messaging relieved all the tension on my side at least. And he did not seem to carry any emotion or anger over to the other topics. More hope.

In the past, during the course of a conversation about something or other, she will dismiss out of hand an idea/objection I may have saying: "I have already thought this through completely and there is no good way to do it other than the way I've concluded." This is a major love buster for me.

In the last while since we have been following MB advice, she hasn't done it as much. But during this conversation it felt like she was doing that by saying the room size was insignificant.

You both were lovebusting each other. She lovebusted you, and you lovebusted back. The conversation should have ended the MOMENT the first lovebuster happened.

Both of you need to drop the disrespect. Both of you need to learn to be open to being persuaded. Both of you need to learn to brainstorm with abandon.

Katiesson, did you read the recommendation of using a notebook to negotiate? What do you think of this idea?

I agree it should have stopped. I guess we are still learning what exactly are lovebusters versus useful discussion/negotiation topics.

I like the idea of using a notebook or something like that. Someone suggested using email I think.

By the way, I changed my display name to Pearlseeker. It's what I had wanted to use but got it wrong when I set up my profile originally.

I am sorry he feels dismissed and disrespected. Obviously I need to learn to communicate in a way that he feels heard and respected.


What I can not do any longer is beg for him to accept that I can agree with/ hear his objection and still not come to the conclusion he has reached.I am frustrated that from all the times I have asked him for brainstorm options that might make him happy other than our initial two options and he still feels that the non capitulation to his solution/action plan means I have preconcluded there is only one good way. I often offer several options once I know he is not happy with the first. If he picks one of my brainstorm ideas does that make it my way?

In my frustration I would like to demand that he always come up with some ideas before I offer mine. Make the first moves in negotiating. I know demands are bad. I won't do that unless you all can tell me how to ask for and get that without lovebusting.


I haven't been talking much. When I feel dictated to I drop it. It is a good thing but I don't think I can claim the improvements he is giving me credit for. The do nothing solution is in place for as many things as have come up that we can do without. It is a short term answer. I stopped making him feel disrespected as much, but I still don't know how to complain, communicate, dismiss a demand in a way that is respectful.
In this instance I acknowledged his concern and badly voiced that I heard his concern but the solution he saw as the relief of his concern did not alleviate my concerns. By qualifying my acceptance of his objection I turned it into a DJ.
Since I read lovebusters 4-5 months ago I really have tried to not make him feel disrespected. Partly because that triggered a lot of anger and I had reached my breaking point for those outbursts. (such as the initial post here where I tried to acknowledge his concern the door be shut without capitulating to his demand.) As you all say I have the responsibility to clean up my side of the street. So it is nice to hear from him he feels positive about the change.


The way I am understanding poja practical application from your feedback is that I should simply say, for example, "ok I see your point that this room is bigger, but I am not enthusiastic about it being the boys room."
period....full stop.... no more words from me
Then allow him to ask me for my concerns one at a time rather than lob concerns back and forth as if they are ammunition in a fight/argument.

Is that more what it would look like?

What about only communicating POJA through email or a notebook?

You BOTH are coming to conclusions before you even brainstorm.

That's not how it should work.

This is what it should look like:
Him - "This is one of my ideas"
Her - "This is one of my ideas"
Both - "Here are several more ideas"
Both - "This is the conclusion we have come to together

Instead of:
Him - "This is the conclusion I have reached"
Her - "This is the conclusion I have reached"
Both - BUTT HEADS TILL THE OTHER GETS IT RIGHT

You are getting your steps of negotiation out of order here.
Can you name the 4 steps of negotiation? What are they? In what order?

Brainstorming only comes AFTER you both have discussed each other's perspectives, asked questions, and understand each others perspectives. This is not the stage in which you try to persuade the other, but rather the stage in which you seek to understand the other in depth.

You can only brainstorm when you understand the problem as your spouse sees it.

What are the 4 steps, in order?

Don't demand anything, not even something you think would be good for your marriage.

Do you have "He Wins, She Wins" ?

Negotiating Guidelines as I remember them.

1. Be safe and don't lovebust.
2. Identify the problem to be solved.
3. Brainstorm.
4. Pick a solution you are both enthusiastic about.

So that is a little different than this sounds.....

No, I have not read that one.

From: Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation. Read the article again. Print it, and keep it close by. Put it near the notebook in which you will be negotiating.

Ok. This jumped out at me this time though I have read over it multiple times before.


Given we started our marriage and have continued until the last couple years with the idea that the husband has the right to be a dictator, albeit, a benevolent one, and that a good Christian wife obeys and submits......yeah, it is accurate to say we have rarely approached a problem looking for a win-win.
And hopeless is about where I am other than reading stories here on the forum that clearly demonstrate old dogs CAN learn new tricks.
Plus the thing that made me desperate in the first place and unwilling to turn into every other 30,40,50 yrs of marriage woman I know....my kids. I can't stop trying because it is hard right now because deep inside I know God didn't intend for marriage to feel like the hardest thing you ever have to experience. It is literally killing me and if I did learn to turn off the physical effects and live to be old I,d still turn into a shell. I have to have more than the well meant lies I was told to pass down to them and I intend to live a good long life. It stops here.

So after no lovebusters the next thing to learn is the art of both of us understanding both perspectives. Whew.

You're getting it.

Markos and I are some of the old dogs If we can do it, I think just about anybody could. We often joke that Dr. Harley wrote "He Wins, She Wins" just because Markos and Prisca signed up for Marriage Builders!

It's a simple concept, really, but not so simple to implement. It takes a LOT of practice. So practice A LOT on little things. Practice on things that just don't matter worth a flip.

It's awkward at first, but make "How would you feel ..." your catch phrase. Eventually, it will be second nature.

Note that "understanding" does not mean "straightening out."

This article is a good one to read over and over for awhile. Also, start listening to the radio show. You can hear Dr. Harley talk about these concepts every day. It will help being able to hear how he handles other peoples problems -- it won't be so personal to you, which helps with understanding sometimes.

You are absolutely right.

Prisca is suggesting using a notebook but there is great value in face to face negotiations. Face to face allows you to see the body language and quickly stop if you make a mistake. Besides, a successful POJA is a marvelous love bank deposit.

You can still print out the guidelines and have them on the table.

Livingwell, I am sure the intimate conversation that should happen within a truly successful poja does make deposits. We will get there I hope, but we have habits to undo first.


Our first hurdle in rebuilding love is to prevent withdrawals. I found our first emotional needs questionnaires and they are dated Dec 2012 and it didn't result in change. It wasn't until I read lovebusters a few months ago that I felt we found OUR biggest block to marital happiness. The help here to emphasize the importance of the lovebusters has been a tremendous catalyst. We are laughing more already.
The notebook will slow things down, reduce the emotional pressures, make interruptions non-disruptive to the process, leave us a record of abusive habits should they pop out and we miss them the first time through.... we can even do it with each other face to face and it seems like it will help a great deal.