What's the hold up in agreeing on babysitters?

How difficult can that be?

Is this issue on the front burner?

the last outburst was over the Christmas-New Year holiday. The one that finally brought me to sign up and post for help. I tread carefully until the 19th and by that time he was involved in reading the forum and getting help with anger management. After my question on the radio show, which he also listened to,I stopped treading lightly, gave him my completed questionnaires, and started trying to be immediately honest in daily interactions. He has caught himself short of an outburst every time and even seems to not feel anger often not just with me but at frustrations with the kids and at work. He only let himself blow up at me, but it has been interesting to see the new calmness he brings to other situations as well.

So we have a month of no outbursts give or take for interpretation of the situation.

Got it.

I would get this wrapped up today and start planning your dates. This is the most critical issue in your marriage right now and I would get this buttoned up now. You aren't going to progress until you start going on dates. Fiddling around the edges will not change anything. Going out on dates is the engine that makes this all work.


I am confused by this paragraph, because these are contradictory statements.

"I want to do the program."

and

"Figuring out if BOTH of us are willing to commit"

Are you saying he is not willing?

Have you read and listened to the clips in here?
The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

I will be frank. At this moment, today, I can find enough money in our budget for 4-6 hrs of paid babysitting per week if I can find a responsible teen who wants to do it. and we can do "free" activities during that time other than our already scheduled once a month dinner date. Gas if we go anywhere far is an extra stress on the budget. There are not grandparents available. So far no one we know wants to trade time....they have grandparents and relatives for their kid free activities.

This lifestyle change has to be created and it is not going to be a quick solution. I have been working towards change every since a doctor looked me in the eye and said figure it out or this is what your future holds. I am not saying it is impossible, but it will take time.
I have ideas for creating more disposable income. Maybe we can reevaluate and find that new priorities make more of what we have. I will keep meeting new people who might make a supportive system around us. I will need it one way or another. But that does not happen in one day. Or maybe we WILL get a lucky break. A miracle. And it will happen quickly.




no, I am not saying he is not willing. I don't know. I am waiting for him to come to his own conclusions without me making demands, being dishonest, and hopefully learning to be completely respectful. I can plan A and do my own changing and I really appreciate the feedback on how and where I can change, but the program itself, romantic love takes two. I sat in the dark the other night after the house was asleep and came to grips with that. I can want. But I can't want enough to make it happen for two. And I honestly don't know if he wants or wishes.

Aha!

Now you have an opportunity to do some PoJA! And brainstorming!

Sit down and carve out some plans to arrange child care, make budgetary room, and/or cheap/affordable/free activities!

My wife and I have a lot of fun just planning our dates. Though, 2/3 of our children are teenagers, so childcare isn't as much of an issue.


When they were younger, they were involved in church youth groups, and that gave us a few times a week where they were out of our hair.

bhb, that is a very common problem with young couples. Some of the ways they have overcome this is joining a gym with a babysitting service [very common and very cost effective], starting a babysitting coop with neighbors, church members. MArkos and Prisca have 7 children and have been very creative about getting out of the house.

I would just keep brainstorming and looking for some creative ways to get out. You will figure it out!

Have you seen this?
UA S schedule for couples with young children

I have "snooped" for years... probably started 10 yrs ago. It was not long into our marriage. Set up some boundaries he was happy to comply with. Also had a zero policy for pornography and tried in return for his honest and openness about temptations to always be safe and kind about confessions of temptation along with a firm zero tolerance. These things have served us well, I think.

But there was still an off feeling. So I snooped more and got nothing. As I read on the forum in the affairs section lately the descriptions of the fogged out rollercoaster moods, rewriting history from one week to the next..... were so familiar. Tonight I told him I had something I wanted to ask. I asked where his pa "type" came from as I found it very hard to accept that it came out of thin air " just because". I told him I had checked everywhere and believe him that there is no porn and no affair partner but it still feels as if there is another woman even just a fantasy woman in our marriage.

He had volunteered at the beginning of the week after the topic was discussed on the radio show that he thinks he had maintained an emotional attraction with an old friend lasting several years into our marriage. I remember finding her picture in his stuff when we set up house and immediately being what felt irrationally jealous. I'm pretty sure I burned the picture and while he still passed pleasantries with a few old female friends through messages around holidays I told him I didn't like any of the conversation with her. And he let the connection die down years ago. He said there is no feeling left. She is in a different country. It is a truly former EA.

However, something else happened earlier this year where he came into a room of people I was already mingling with and saw a "hot" woman and was attracted then she turned around and it was me. I had a new haircut and clothes he had not seen me in before. The compliment was cute and flattering, but an undercurrent of unease came with it. Like it bothered me he was checking women out.

So he told me tonight at one point that he was thinking of something he heard about every man sort of always keeping an eye out for a trade up. Oooh...I said sort of like he is keeping a foot in the door to hold it open. He agreed that is pretty much it. So I was honest. I told him I promised to be in a marriage for two. Just him and I and I respect marriage and myself too much to promise to stay in a marriage that is open. The door has to be shut. And there can't be secrets, even if the secrets are only in his head. I know he doesn't have a secret second life tangibly. But now it is pretty clear there is still a second life in his brain, secret no longer.
He could look me in the eyes and I could return it during sex. What a big clue that eye contact can be. I always felt it odd that it was lacking a majority of the time for us.

It feels like a load evaporated. I am not crazy.
I feel unafraid of what comes next though I am not guaranteed there will be no plan B.
There is a reason I was feeling uncertain of his commitment, an uncertainty that went beyond whether his needs are met and lovebusters gone. Step 1 comes first because if the mutual commitment is not there it just stays a rental arrangement no matter what the bank balance. I think we both feel more surely that we can and will fall in deeply in love.

He can tell you more of what we talked about if he wants.

So earlier when I typed this in
"
What I was acknowledging to myself is that if he decides to be a renter there is nothing I can do to force him to choose differently.
What I know is that I am a buyer now.

So I don't want to distract from the importance of stopping DJs and creating UA. But I did want to ask for feedback and pointers, if any, on this aspect. I don't remember reading any thing about one way emotional attachments that are not true affairs. Does the policy of radical honesty take care of all that?

Quotes from my daily little pep talk thread read.... I know there are people out there reading thinking if they just sacrifice a little more they will find happiness. Keep reading marriage builders and do it fast. I wasted years of our lives by trying to sacrifice enough to fix the unhappiness. Don't. It doesn't work.

bhb, that is definitely a renters approach to marriage: you might be right for me today, but wrong for me tomorrow. It sounds he is in the habit of checking out others which really means the competition is still open. That means you are competing with every woman he comes into contact with. That is an aspect of a renters relationship as you have correctly concluded.

Do you see him gawking at women?

I have been asking myself something similar. I guess I don't know what the definition of gawking is. He definitely does notice other women, but he doesn't do so openly. He doesn't do what I call ogling at least not when I am with him. We spend a majority of our time together at home so it is possible I don't know the extent to which he may or may not be. But I believe it is very tightly controlled if he is.
Which makes me feel ......I am not sure what.... because competing with another real woman is hard but who can compete and look attractive next to a fantasy who has no humanity and no needs? I don't mean to diminish the reality that an actual affair is much harder ....it is just this aspect of competing with unrealistic perfection I don't know what to do about.
I know part of the answer is that a fantasy can't meet his needs so if I ever stop providing the cake to eat while he has some fantasy in reserve....real cake will look good fast.

Which brings us back to UA. Lots of mutual cake eating and an opportunity to see if that is enough to lose the competition. I do believe he is,today, seeing that he has to say yes to me and no to everyone else.....his words. If he brings exclusivity to the marriage every single day from here on out and we follow the plan we will do well together.

If there is a fantasy, it would likely come from one or more of these sources: porn, gawking at women or an affair. As long as those elements are removed, he can fall in love with you and find you desirable.


I don't understand. What do you mean by "say yes" to you and "no to everybody else." Are you saying there is competition? How are you not exclusive?

yes, he says there has been comparison going on in his head. I hope he will give a synopsis of the state of things in his head. Those were his exact words. I am trying to not psychoanalize him at this point and stay focused on my side of things.

How it is not exclusive is not clear to me.
Is it remnants of the emotional attachments to old girl friends(that he liked and never dated)?
Is it a general attitude of I am not allowed to be happy so I am going to look for some reason to downplay what I have so I can feel sorry for myself?(he said something like that in the last month...that he tries to make himself miserable if he starts feeling happy which I can totally see as a typical pattern of behavior after living with him for 12 years)
Is it just renter mentality of it is too hard to own this and make it my dream and I am going to wait for some magical easier way? He does/has todate sort of bought into the idea that romance is msomething that just happens to you and love is the until death do us part portion.
Is it pornography or an affair I don't know about yet? I just don't know.

Is it important for me to understand where the competition is as long as it is not an affair with a specific woman?

I am not sure how to explain what has been going on in my head but will try.

I grew up in an extremely conservative religious group and my life was generally very dull and boring. Being happy was frowned upon and sometimes even thought to be sinful.

I suppose this is why I started fantasizing as a young boy about a variety of things. My real life was boring and often painful so I created an imaginary world where things were exciting and interesting.

My fantasies were sometimes sexual in nature but not generally so.

Anyway, I have had a difficult time to be happy with my life, to enjoy what I have. But I have learned to be happy in many ways over the last 5 to 8 years to the extent that instead of hating life, I now love life and want to live forever!

To my shame however, I have allowed myself to continue this habit and would at times indulge in sexual fantasies even though I'm married.

I think I have been what Dr. Harley calls a renter.

But I am now resolved to stop this behavior and instead delight in the beautiful woman I have. I am committed to being a buyer from this day on.

I hope that with time she can fully trust me and know that I love only her. I know that means I have to earn it.

I hope my fellow MBers will hold me accountable.

Given he says SF as it is now is not unpleasant or boring, given that we can plan for new experiences we decide to pursue......... how in the world can I compete with something generated in the mind where realities and limitations don't exist?

There is more change going on now than ever before when we brushed up against this habit. I think this *might* simply become a non issue if we work the plan because he will have so much going on elsewhere and we will become more integrated to where he doesn't have a second life inside his head.

I have hope this is the turning point, but I am a little nervous that I don't know of a visible/tangible plan that could be implemented to break this particular habit. I don't know how to set boundaries for this. Resolves don't last unless there is action taken to enforce the resolve. Sorry to say I think this is probably like an addiction it is so much a part of his life not just in the area of SF but many others. It is easier to slip off into a fantasy than engage in negotiating to get what you wish for out of life.

I would really like to be off the unpredictable mood rollercoaster that comes with episodes of indulging this habit. The fog aspect it brings creates an environment where nothing is stable enough to build on. It is a process of forever starting over. I would like to send his secret, isolating fantasy world a no contact letter!! But I still want to hear from his dreamer, from his creativity in OUR world.

Surely we are not the first couple to face this.

So, so glad for this community. Tell me what Dr Harley would say to us.

First, PS should stick to his own thread, and you to yours.

Secondly, if you want "hear from his dreams" you should stop attempting to attribute to them. Attempting to guess his thoughts is trudging towards disrespectful judgment.

It is his responsibility to redirect his thoughts.

That entire third paragraph is a long DJ. You don't have to "take action to enforce" anything. You don't have to put a "boundary" on his mind, he does.

The ramification of not learning to redirect his thoughts is loss of love for his wife. Sadly, it's the same ramification you face for attempting to imagine his thoughts!

Disrespectful judgments are a double edged sword!


Allowing them in our own thoughts withdraws love units with neither our spouse's consent, nor their knowledge... and then voicing and/or acting on them withdraw units from our love bank with them!


Now, how about that UA time?

I am very nervous about your situation too because I see a lot of blogging and not a lot of action. You won't be able to post your way to a great marriage. What will give you a great marriage is following the steps, especially the policy of undivided attention. I would keep that on the front burner until you get that resolved.

Oh. I am only posting here when there are situations in which I don't understand how to apply the program. Not all the rest of of it.

Our lives are drastically different than they were a month ago. I would not have believed if you had told me I would be replying to him telling me to do something with "I am not very enthusiastic about that, how would you feel about doing this instead". Even more I would not have believed I would do that and there would be no anger.
We set aside things like watching independent movies (him) and reading (me) in favor of spending time talking alone and having a cup of tea together most evenings after the kids are in bed. Last night we revived an old activity of watching comedy and laughed til we cried. Now those things we are not trying to count as UA but it is a deliberate action.

Today we decided to not go to church and spend the day being together. I woke up groggy and not feeling well, told the kids what to have for breakfast and he told me to go sleep a little more. When I got up the kids were done eating and cleaning up and were playing and he had waited to eat. We made breakfast together and sat down to eat alone and chat.

This afternoon we went and checked out the gyms I made a list of yesterday that offer childcare. We are rural enough we have to go 45 minutes away to get things like that.
The closest church that offers drop off activities for kids is in the same town.

The babysitters I had scheduled for the coming week's 6 hrs of UA other than the gym and church ideas are going to be unavailable now. Still calling a list of teens one by one.