I think the hardest part for me will be not doing things I don't want to do. I actually get anxiety/sick to my stomach when I think of denying him something he wants.

He is very good at not doing anything he does not want to do. And he has no problem letting me do things for him even though he knows I don't want to do them. But I was thinking about the dependency/control article BrainHurts posted and how he may think "this is a great deal, I get what I want!" but it creates an imbalance where he may feel dependent on me in some ways and that might explain what seems to me as a knee-jerk reaction on his part to NOT do anything I want. Before reading that I never would have dreamed he might feel a loss of control because he seems so in control and I'm so compliant. But now I wonder.

The other day he asked me if I wanted to do something that I know he wanted to do and I said "No not really." He didn't say anything but I saw a weird look cross his face and I immediately started feeling bad and second guessing myself thinking - it wouldn't be so bad, it might be fun, it's something we could do together, it would mean a lot to him... but I stayed quiet. It was REALLY HARD.

Has he looked at the website at all?

Thanks for your reply. Yeah, I am kind of being "worst case scenario." But I can see that I could negotiate that never seeing my family is not a solution to me.

Can I ask what you decided for your pets ultimately? My first husband came home one day and decided our pets should become outdoor animals. I went along with it but hated him and myself for it. One cat disappeared (when I was out of town... now I wonder....) And the entrails of another was discovered by my poor step daughter on our front lawn when she came home from school. Anyhow - that's really neither here nor there now but your scenario reminded me of that and I am curious what you ended up deciding together.

Here's her question.
Radio Clip of TenaciousOne's question

We decided that the pets would stay outside when Hubby is at home. My poodle is allowed on the couch, but the border collies aren't. We keep no food or water out for the pets inside the house. Hubby will text or call and let me know when he will be home, so we can put the pets outside. We homeschool, so we have most of the day to enjoy the pets inside while we do lessons.

My poodle is the only pet allowed inside at any time.

I am back and sorry this is so long, I didn't know what to cut...

Since I found this site and first posted here, I�ve been reading Dr. Harley�s books, this website and listening to MB Radios. Everything makes so much sense to me. I�ve tried to get my husband to read things and he did recently start reading his needs/her needs but he does not want to talk about it (he wants to show me). He said he hates it when I used MB lingo (like AO, LB, IB, etc.) So I stopped mentioning those things but they are still on my mind.

Also - we handled an ongoing issue per POJA the other day. It went fantastic and later he would not discuss MB but indicated he�d read about POJA and was consciously doing that.

Overall I was SO HAPPY he was reading the book and I have felt things are going so much better in our relationship. I think if I give him time he may get on board with MB.

However�

Simultaneous to this progress there is a personality trait of DH's that hat has frustrated me as long as I�ve known him: He will not take me seriously and he won�t have a serious conversation with me. When I try to talk with him about something that concerns me, he makes jokes and changes the subject. I am the butt of most of his jokes. He also teases me a lot, like sticking his fingers in my face when we�re lying in bed, and in the past, would not take me seriously when I said I didn't like it. That type of teasing has gotten better since I learned about LBs and started calmly complaining.

I have contributed to the joking problem because I really do love his sense of humor and most of his jokes about me are just jokes, and actually pretty funny IMO. So when I�m trying to be serious and he keeps joking I usually end up laughing and get distracted -- and my concern is never addressed.

Sometimes I don�t find his jokes at/about me funny at all though. I feel like his refusal to take me seriously is belittling and he is just toying with me the way a cat plays with a mouse. I feel dismissed. (He will also pause the TV and politely look at me when I talk, but when I stop, he doesn�t say a word -- just turns back to the TV and resumes watching it.)

Using MB principles (I think) I have been trying to calmly state my complaints about this. He has changed his behavior over some LBs, but my biggest concern - him ridiculing and dismissing me, he just jokes off. And lately he�s started saying �Just Relax, it�s a JOKE, what is wrong with you?�

The other day I started crying uncontrollably over some of these things plus other things and he was very kind and held my hand and apologized sincerely and didn�t mock or ridicule at all. I felt loved and connected to him for the first time in ages.

But nothing seemed to change later, and subsequent to that is when he started saying �relax, it’s just a joke� to me.

Last night I lost my mind on him over his joking. I have never had a problem with anger and didn�t see this coming. I was a raving lunatic. I had the presence of mind to remove myself from the room but I was screaming profanities and shaking and crying. I was horrible. He came and talked me out of leaving the house and I apologized for my AO and told him what is bothering me (again) and he apologized but I sensed he was mad and definitely bewildered. If the details of the incident are important ask and I will put them in a separate post, this one is already too long�

Things went back to normal and we were civil to each other but I felt so ashamed. But this morning I was about to do something I know is a LB for him (eat food that makes noise) so I said �I�m going to go eat upstairs.� He asked why I left and I said �My food is making crunchy sounds and I know that bothers you� and he said �I�d rather you cleaned the kitchen.� (Another LB - I�m very messy but this morning I had already cleaned 90% of it and planned to finish after I ate.)

I went downstairs and we dickered over the incident. I tried to explain that I was trying not to do things I know bother him and he kept saying it was fine. We were going to watch a TV show and he just turned the show on without acknowledging some of what I was saying. So then I complained about that. And even I felt I was being nit-picky at that point. Now he is totally bewildered and staying away from me. I know he feels like he can�t do anything right to appease me right now.

I think he really does love me and IS trying to improve and now it seems I am making mountains out of mole hills, introducing unnecessary conflict. We were both happier before I tried to improve our marriage, but I don't think either of us was really happy.

I want to apologize for this morning, but I wonder if that�s a mistake. He has done so many really nice things for us lately and I feel like I am ruining that good momentum, but I also know I am not happy/satisfied with our marriage as is. I don�t know what to do. I am so frustrated about not being able to talk to him, I can't accept being dismissed any more, but repeating �I can�t talk to you� feels like I am just badgering him.

I want to do the MB program with him but he knows these changes in me are due to MB and he�s not digging them right now�. I don�t know if I�m being impatient, expecting too much too soon, or if I�ve been too patient for too long and I'm deluding myself by grasping at the progress I see.

As horrible as my AO was last night - that and the tears were the only times he�s ever taken me seriously. (Aside from the one POJA we did that he initiated). Otherwise, talking calmly and asking him to be serious has netted 0 results. I don�t know if I should stop laughing at all his humor, even the 85% I do find wonderful and funny because it�s misleading to him when I find 15% of it belittling. I feel that�s not fair to him - like saying �don�t be who you are� plus I do love him and his sense of humor is a favorite part of him to me.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

His jokes when you are trying to talk seriously to him are simply unacceptable. Since he seems to have a problem discerning when it is necessary to not joke around, I would give him a concrete signal that it is time to be serious. Something like "when I am holding this object, I need you to be serious with me".

Hi.
I think that you are just seeing the truth of where you guys are- not making this worse. It looks like time to confront.

He can keep his sense of humor but it's fine to say no jokes about me (those are DJs)

If you can't get him to address issues.... Follow the "path on when to call it quits".

Give him a letter on what you need in marriage. What emotional needs you want, what you need him not to do (like jokes about you) and see how he responds.

I would also say- it's worth an email to Dr. Harley as well.

Thank you all! Brainhurts I will do that.

BrainHurts, I have not done this yet but I have a time sensitive question I want to ask the forum tonight. I do have a "big picture" question I'm will try to put together and email mbradio this week.

Can you guys help me with a POJA issue?

I've mentioned my DH has started listening to a couple of Dr. Harley's books, but he does not want to talk about MB and particularly dislikes if I use the lingo (LB, UA, POJA, etc.). However, I can see he really is trying to improve our relationship. I am trying really hard to follow MB principles on my side. I feel there is a lot of improvement in our relationship overall, but some interactions are still extremely frustrating.

Example of Improvement
He is doing a LOT less DJs to me and the other day he said something in a way that I found very insulting and I got annoyed and he asked "What did I say?" and I told him and he said "OH, yeah, I can see that..." and stopped doing it. He does that all the time - takes criticism MUCH better than most people and really tries to change.

CURRENT POJA ISSUE
My DH is saying he will go to an event for me that he doesn't seem enthusiastic about. Tonight when I pushed him on it (3rd conversation...) he said he wants to do something FOR me because I've done so much for him. He says whether or not we go is entirely up to me, he leaves it in my hands. (The deadline to register for it is tonight.)

He won't overtly POJA with me but I know we're both supposed to be enthusiastic. If I know he he doesn't really want to attend the event should I not go? Or is his wanting to do something FOR me good enough to count as enthusiastically doing it and I should just let him do something nice for me and be happy about it? If he says he's willing to do it, should I just accept that and not try to take care of his side of POJA for him?

Historically, I've been the one doing things I don't want to do. He has never had a problem saying no to things he doesn't want to do.

It's frustrating that I can't really talk about POJA with him, though I did finally say something about how I'm trying to follow MB and we're both supposed to be enthusiastic and that was when he said "I leave it all in your hands."


More background info:
BTW - I'm trying not to turn this into a blog type post but one thing that may be material -- and this is probably DJ 'cause I'm assigning motives to him -- but I feel 50/50 like:

1) He is sincerely trying to do something nice for me but also

2) He's messing with/controlling me when he won't discuss MB or answer me yes/no as to whether or not he wan'ts to do something. Or he will sometimes do something he does want to do but act like he's doing it as a favor to score points.

I don't want to make mountains out of molehills because I really do think our relationship is improving greatly and I don't want to set it back with nit picking, but it's very frustrating to me when I feel like I'm going in circles with him.

Part of one conversation on the above mentioned event went like this (paraphrasing per memory):

Him: I said I'd go to your thing.

Me: I know but I feel frustrated because I know you don't to talk about marriage builders but I am trying to follow it and they say you should only do things you're both enthusiastic about.

Him: I said I'd go.

Me: Yes, but I feel frustrated because I want to discuss it because I don't want to make you do something you don't want. When you make sacrifices then you end up feeling resentful...

Him: I said I'll do it. You don't need to get into some psychological mumbo jumbo.

Me: I feel frustrated, like we're having two different conversations.

Him: I said I'd go.

Me: And I appreciate that but...

Him: Wow.

Me: What?

Him: I... I don't even know what to say.

Then he turned the TV on and I tried to go to sleep, but my chest was tight and I felt sick to my stomach. He's offering to do something for me but I feel frustrated. I feel like he's being deliberately obtuse about MB, but he is a guy and he doesn't like to talk a lot or analyze things like I do.

It's ok for you to go a) you are both enthusiastic and b) it is not something that is harmful to your marriage. For example, if it involves staying overnight it is not good for your marriage.


This is a renters strategy that should be avoided at all cost. He is offering to make a sacrifice. People who sacrifice keep score and when the score is not even, demands ensue. Don't accept reluctant agreements. If he wants to "do something for you" it should be something that enhances your marriage. Entering win/lose agreements does nothing for your marriage other than create resentment and incompatibility.

This is the best thing you can do for your marriage. I would speak to Dr Harley and see if you can get your husband to speak to him too. Dr Harley can often persuade reluctant spouses to get on board.

Thank you, at the very least I can send a question and maybe talk to them myself. DH is VERY private and I think he won't want to be on the radio for fear of someone we know recognizing his voice. I think he would not want me to be on the radio either but I don't know if that is a legitimate reason not to be. It seems he's inching closer to being willing to do that program, and I don't want to blow it by pushing too hard too fast. But I also realize a big reason I am in a place where I'm very unhappy with my life today and had a prior marriage that didn't work is because I put up with anything and never want to make waves.

Don't worry. You don't have to go on the radio. Just send them your phone # and they will call you.

It was a church date night so no sense my going by myself. I am still trying to work up to 15 hours UA with him so I would not pursue other things that take me away at this time (other than travel to work or possibly see family he doesn't want to see).


Thank you - I knew he was making a sacrifice but didn't get the renters strategy big picture.

I did get to the bottom of it though this morning. I said I was not going to have him do something he clearly did not want to do and he said "I don't want this to come back to bite me." Then explained he wants me to keep going to things he wants to go to even though I don't want to. I told him "Well I am committed to no longer doing things I don't want to do for you." He didn't say anything but looked very disconcerted.

And the truth is I'm not sure I have the strength to say no to things and disappoint him. Also I'm not always sure where the line is between not being enthusiastic about something he really wants to do and being enthusiastic about being with him, not really caring what we're doing. Saying no makes me VERY uncomfortable.

We REALLY need to do this program...

Do you see how he thinks? He is seeking win/lose solutions instead of win/win. So he sacrifices today and you sacrifice tomorrow. Like I said, people who sacrifice keep score and when the score is not even, they make demands: "you should go with me to mud wrasslin because I went to the mall with you!!!" That is the ticket to incompatibility.


Do oyu have the strength to do everything necessary to have a good marriage? Becuase if you do, you will stop making sacrifices and stop accepting reluctant agreements from him. They are the kiss of death.


Why do you need to differentiate? What matters is if you are enthusiastic about going. The underlying reasons don't matter. [unless you tell me that you are "enthusiastic" about making sacrifices and then I call BS]

Also, some things will come up that you don't really care about. You are not enthusiastic but it doesn't bother you one bit if he does it. For example, i am not enthusiastic about my husband fiddling in the garage, but it doesn't bother me one bit if he does it. And it doesn't harm my marriage. So, some things you just won't care about and that is fine.

You need to get over that. It is tough to change bad habits and at first you will feel INAPPROPRIATE GUILT for not making sacrifices. You need to use your logic to talk yourself off that cliff. After awhile, it won't phase you one bit. Sacrifice is bad for your marriage<-----keep telling yourself that and your emotions will follow.

Rather than telling him that you will no longer be doing things that he wants to do etc..., I feel it could have been an opportunity to express that WE both need to come up with ideas that we BOTH find ourselves enthusiastic about. Lets talk about some different options that we can agree to until we do.

It just sounded controlling and unilateral to me in the wording that you chose.

But, I am still learning this, so I stand to be corrected.

LTL