I don't understand? Would you mind trying to clarify?
I don't want to guess his thoughts. I want him to share the richness of his creative thoughts with me.

this I understand.

Let me try again to communicate. I know he is the one that has to put the boundary on his behavior and take the actions to ensure it stops.

What I don't understand is how these quotes apply to me.

I don't know where she is and isn't.
And there are endless copies available.

We have gone through withdrawal quite a few times in our marriage. The first cycle began within the first month of marriage. Especially in the first 6 yrs we spent more time in those symptoms than out. He managed to go to work. Sometimes we went to church. Sometimes he ate regular meals and we had SF. That was the extent of his activity. I suggested a few times that he see a therapist or a doctor for meds, but he just couldn't bring himself too. At times it would get better, then something stressful happens and we end up back in a fog that the same things that were meeting his needs successfully don't apply at all. It is bewildering. It has gotten so much better the last 6 yrs.A lot less frequently and of short-term duration.
As I understand the method Dr Harley recommends that after contact is broken the wife continue to check up possible avenues of contact as well as the radical honesty being in place and to simply avoid each other through the withdrawal phase. How does that apply to me?
My current plan is to focus on the program as it would be if there were no sort of affair/ other woman issues. UA, RH, POJA, and meeting his needs. Is that still a valid plan since the fantasy life has been uncovered?


Which brings me to this. I want to quickly understand what I need to know about the fantasy issues and then leave it behind. Although I am focused on the same plan that was in place before this confession on Friday, I am unsettled that there is no tangible moving away from "the addiction" possible in this scenario. If there is none can recovery be permanent? If none is needed that is what I need to know.

I think what you are trying to tell me is what I said above. Process the confession and the honesty, then leave the past in the past and don't be tempted to think about what may or may not be going on in his mind?
Because if I do spend time thinking on the what-ifs it is a DJ and will drain my love for him through no fault of his. Which leaves him in an unfair position of my account being low when he hasn't withdrawn a thing.

If I misunderstood please try again. I want to understand and I appreciate when my DJ behavior is pointed out so I can change it.

FWIW:

I think you have enough information to move forward. I don't recommend seeking more. You know that he has a problem. How about looking to the future not the past. Yes, he has a bad habit that can cause him to lose his love for you. (ETA: And you to lose your love for him.) Ouch!

How about focusing instead on a complaint and thoughtful request format?

Example:

Pearlseeker:
You vowed that I would be your one and only. It bothers me when you scan for and focus on other females and compare me.

How would you feel about caring for me by focusing on me only and redirecting your thoughts?

How would you be willing to give me reassurance of that?

His answer and FUTURE behavior will show his level of care for you.

You get the picture. I wouldn't ask for more details. It won't be productive and is tough to get past. A woman needs to feel emotionally safe with her husband. Ask him to provide that for you by controlling his eyes. He hasn't been.

Thank you! This gave me a reminder though in a slightly different point in the process than you suggested. If I feel distant or out of love in the future our new lifestyle is to give a thoughtful request or complaint.

It is difficult to focus and keep energy up when I don't have it clear in my head what I can DO that is different than what got me and us to this point.
I keep telling myself if I feel trapped in a cycle of behaviors or hopeless that is the old plan and to figure out what part of the new plan I am forgetting to implement.

I can change. There are always options.
May seem elementary to state those things over and over, but it is difficult to remember if I get flustered.

I did ask how he would feel about something big this week, so we are off to have a little fun even though we couldn't get babysitters.

Is this the show? Radio Clip of 2-03-15's Show

Does poja mean that if he is not happy about me asking for help I should not?

You should look for a different way of getting what you need. Follow the four guidelines for successful negotiation until you find an alternative you are both happy about.

Now, if you are looking for help because he is abusive or having an affair, etc., all bets are off - get all the help you need if the issue is health and safety.

What specifically are you wanting to ask for help for? I scanned the recent posts on your thread and I'm not sure if that tells me.

If the problem is that your husband won't follow these rules for marriage, then ask for help anyway, even if he objects. For example, if your husband doesn't want you posting here or doesn't want you emailing Dr. Harley, do it anyway. If your husband is engaging in independent behavior or another love buster and doesn't want to try to stop it, get help anyway. If your husband doesn't want to spend 15 hours a week of undivided attention time with you, get help anyway.

If you're talking about getting help around the house or asking a family member for advice with taxes or something, then follow the POJA - only ask for help in ways that he is enthusiastic about.

What I meant by asking for help is posting here or talking to Dr Harley via the show.
He hasn't outright said I can not, and he makes peace with it after awhile, but I do know he is not enthusiastic. Not sure what is the right thing to do.

What do I do or say in response to "I am not in a mood to negotiate." When -do nothingis a health and safety issue? Do nothing works for most things, but I didn't feel it could work in this instance.

All of us except for him are in various stages of the flu. He came home from work, making independent assessments of what was going on and made demands of the children I felt were abusive.
I told him it bothered me that he came in demanding everyone get on the normal routine and he wasn't able to hear that. When I asked that we please negotiate something that took care of every ones needs that was his reply. "I am not in the mood"

So I felt left between allowing his demand to stand or independently deciding what to do. I went back and told him that, also that I didn't want to dismiss his concerns or disrespect him.
Then I went and helped the kids do the basics then excused them back to rest/lie down.
In between taking care of the kids and getting his dinner I asked questions to try to understand what his concerns were so that I could offer ideas that would satisfy both of us.
I thought I saw his concerns and had some ideas how to achieve his goals without pushing the line of abusing sick kids to do it, but he felt negotiating at all meant he would not be happy.
He did adapt his plan in the end, but it felt tense and awful.


What is the best way to handle that scenario? He felt he was being dismissed and relegated to non-parent status. I am frustrated because that is the exact opposite of what I wanted. I wanted him to hear my concerns, hear who was sick and the changes in that through the hours he was gone and then we could co-parent.

What to do when do nothing is a health hazard?

The default of the POJA here was not his demands. The default is DO NOTHING, which is what I assume you were already doing before he got home. If he wants something done differently, he must negotiate that with you, but he cannot demand it.

The default will NEVER be to give in to a demand.

The other thing that has passed each time but keeps coming up is that often, not always, when I make a complaint about what feels like a demand he turns it back on me that he feels disrespected and dismissed. I restate that I am asking for negotiating along with the complaint that something bothers me or that I am unhappy doing this or that. Wanting to negotiate is not dismissal as far as I can tell. I don't want to disrespect him I just want to be honest and stop sacrificing. I can't sustain sacrificing anymore. I have nothing left to give....

One night recently he did tell me that it is hard but he does think I am doing the right thing in holding firmly to my boundaries.

Maybe it is the current lack of sleep and no UA time but I am in a slump emotionally and wanting to just withdraw. I don't want to withdraw. I want to work on it and stay engaged. I am just tired and trying to hang in. Maybe I am doing something wrong? Coach me.

Are ya'll using the Lovebuster forms?
Are you filling them out weekly?
Are you using the UA forms and graphs?
Are you using the notebook?

What does he mean by boundaries?

Dr. Harley explicitly says to make an exception to the POJA for health and safety.

bhh, the big problem I am seeing is that your husband does not seem to be on board yet with how important this is. You are wearing yourself out trying to do Marriage Builders by yourself. Have you asked your husband to read the Basic Concepts? Has he joined you in any Marriage Builders work at all?

We need to be coaching him - will he post here? Would he talk to Dr. Harley?

Has your husband joined you in brainstorming ways for you two to go out on dates?

is it ok for me to decide it is a health hazard even if he does not think it is?

Boundaries mean not doing whatever he wants when I disagree or am unhappy, I think.

That followed a scenario where we were working on something together and he said out of the blue about a side thing... "xyz needs to be sorted because xyz."

In a couple minutes of thinking how to phrase it I said, " it bothers me that it feels like you are giving me an ultimatum of this needs done, I want it done, and because of this "judgement/value assessment"
I am not happy about doing that or about throwing out those for that reason. And I feel anxious about what will happen if you come back later and it is not done. Can we talk about it?"

He said I don't want to talk about it. I asked him to write me an email explaining his concerns. In a little bit he said he felt dismissed and disrespected. I told him I was sorry he felt disrespected. I am not dismissing him. I am just unhappy with what it felt like he was saying, and I would like him to explain more of what bothered him about xyz so we could find a solution that both of us were happy about.

He sent me a one liner question in an email. I replied with a solution I would be happy with (sorting it together throwing out only with mutual agreement.) When he got it he came and asked if we could go sort right then. We did. It was a good solution I think. But we pretty much coexistence the rest of the day.

He wanted us to go out and sign up do our first gym outing (which we have agreed to do and how to pay for).
However with fever kids that was not an option.(gym childcare rules which I heartily agree with, as well as me not wanting to drag sick babies and kids out in the cold and sitting for the drive 45 minutes one way then back again let alone hrs in public away from blankets and beds.)

The next morning he came to me wanting to talk and said he felt dismissed and disrespected, told he was wrong, and hit between the eyes that my needs aren't being met yet. (I don't know where some of that came from unless he had relistened to the radio show question. I never mentioned my needs.)
I replied that I am sorry he feels disrespected. He talked some more about how badly he was feeling. After a silence I said I felt like he was expecting me to comfort and reassure him and I didn't know what to say. He walked off after that. (I felt he was angry, but he didn't have an outburst.)

We sort of coexisted that day too. We worked on several projects that were priority for him, he asked my opinion and listened on one thing, and I tried to meet his needs of admiration and domestic care which are his highest just over PA and SF.

Later that night was when he came and said he had thought about me saying he wanted comfort, and I was right in not pacifying him, and me complaining and sticking to it firmly is the right thing for me to do even though it is hard and he doesn't like it. He also apologized for spending the day moping.
He had also asked if I was interested in sex and I said not really. I was really tired from being up at night and starting to feel sick myself and the distance between us is getting to me. Over our marriage I have been able to keep sexual response and the rest of our relationship separate, and have never said no. I am finding it hard to do that as we get more open and honest in other areas. He said my saying no was a positive thing.

That is the best I can do at answering your question. Any more explanation about what he meant by boundaries has to come from him, I guess.

We filled out the love buster forms in January. Have not done it weekly.

We have UA forms printed. Did the RC inventory.
Unsuccessful at finding childcare we can afford yet, so the graph is pretty empty so far.
Last Saturday we had plans for an all day activity, but childcare canceled.
And the flu has interfered with this weeks plans.
So far no success hiring someone for a regular schedule like we are looking for. I am waiting to hear back from a girl who does in home childcare as a job to know what she charges. Maybe if we can offer more than that someone will be interested in working for us evenings and weekends.

He has participated in discussing and checking out my ideas for UA. I don't recall him offer any new ideas. He feels pretty hopeless that we can find 15 hrs a week as far as I can tell. He likes the idea, he is getting more and more enthusiastic about the gym idea.....
We did go do some fun as a family last week. He likes being at home, so there was a moment of reluctance after he had agreed to do the activity, but he did follow through which meant a lot. He says he enjoyed it except he got cold at one point.

The notebook.... we are trying email for things that get tense, but in my opinion it is not working well. We have only gotten original and one reply, no full conversations. He gives one liner questions, and then picks an idea I present or comes and talks it out when the emotion is gone. I would like to hear more ideas from him so I could understand know better how he thinks about things. In general his tone is that it is hopeless to want anything different. He feels that at his age life should be different than it is.

I feel we have gone through some hard days together and came from a place of being poorly prepared for life before we were together but we have successfully made plans and are working our way to what we would prefer to be our lifestyle. It will take a few more years to get there but we are progressing towards the goal. I keep going because sometimes he gets encouraged when we turn a goal post corner. The in between is hard. I know change is happening even when it is slow so best I know is to give time its chance to prove it.

What about these?

answers above ^^^^ must have posted at the same moment.