My husband and I have been married almost 14 years and were together another 6 before that. We have two elementary-school aged children.

We have had issues off and on pretty much throughout our marriage. Actually, from before we were engaged. Same basic issues all the time. For years, I let him convince me the problems were all mine, my way of looking at things, my too-high demands on him. He says (frequently, with words only) that he loves me. But I don't believe him. He doesn't even seem to like me. I feel like I'm a box that he's checked somewhere on a form for what the "right" life is supposed to hold.

The things that kill me are that we don't do anything together. We don't spend time together as a couple. He won't talk to me--he will talk at me (spends long times monologueing in my direction), but whenever I try to respond, add a comment, a reflection, anything, he will change the subject (frequently in a way that makes it obvious that he didn't notice I was speaking at all). We don't go out. I feel like I tried for years to suggest activities that we could do together--things like bike riding (he refused to even consider owning a bicycle), taking ski lessons, going bowling (he then joined a league with coworkers where there was no room for me). It's not that he's not an athlete--but he likes big team sports that I"m not good enough at (and has never encouraged me to play...only occasionally to watch him and wait forever alone while he hangs out with his teammates afterwards) Even things like going out to dinner without the kids has become a major sore point. He frets about leaving the kids with the babysitter. The last time I tried (I arranged for the kids to go to the Y myself and everything), he pulled out his phone to play games before we were even seated (and no, I wasn't doing the same--my phone was broken that night, so I got to sit there feeling awkward and lonely and pretty rejected).

When I ask what he would like to do, he claims that he likes "spending time with me". But by that, all he seems to mean is that he wants a warm body in the room while he does something alone (like play on his phone).

We first dated during and right after college, and we were always in groups of friends. I think, now, that back then I was always happy back then because I had plenty of people to talk to. And my husband would gladly agree to go to movies or parties or dinners or other outings as long as there was a group of people involved. Then we'd go home and make love and all was well. When I would suggest we skip the group for a weekend, he would accuse me of being antisocial, we'd fight, and then not spend any time together.

We both have careers with equivalent salaries and have never completely fused our finances. This is another sore point with me...he has always accused me of trying to control him when I bring up the subject, but then I end up having to scramble to make sure our budget works, and in the past have ended up paying for much of the the kids' clothes and activities out of "my" money. I don't think he does anything bad with "his" money, and I've never forced him not to spend money or complained about his regular spending (except during the times in the past where "we" were barely scraping by on joint bills and he would refuse to look at the numbers and help plan for how to fix it). So, our joint handling of finances is a problem for me, though I don't "need" him to help pay for things. I just feel shut out of decisions (and forced to make them by myself, usually with him coming in afterward to complain).

He is generally a good father, and is actually pretty good at taking care of things around the house. I used to be the primary housekeeper (which drove me nuts, since I also made half the money), but that is much better the past couple of years. I"m not sure that's not part of his problem. I suspect he resents having to do laundry and dishes and shuttle kids around. But he would never sit down and help formulate a plan for me to be able to stay home with the kids, budget-wise, even though pre-marriage that was the cause of a major conflict (he insisted that a mom should stay home, and I was in college preparing for a career).

Then when we were preparing to start our family, he insisted on a much more expensive house than we needed and then decided to buy a new, expensive car without talking to me or planning at all first. Because he would never look at a joint budget and be willing to make any compromises, and I could never make the numbers balance without my salary in the mix without any help from him, I kept working. I suspect that he resents it, but he is responsible for the situation! I can't change that without him stepping up and sharing the planning and financial responsibility. I'm sure that we could make a budget that pays for the house and the family and still leaves room for individual things (his lunches out, etc).

And, to be honest, lately I find far more enjoyment in my job than I do at home. At work, people talk to me! And actually listen when I respond! And we can laugh and joke with each other around all the shared stress. I have had to travel for work more recently, and I'm really enjoying it. It makes me feel guilty to admit it, but I get quiet time to reflect or read or watch movies on the plane (husband doesn't like to watch movies often at home and so I don't frequently find time/space to do so on my own). The job is interesting. If I'm travelling with other people, we will end up with group dinners and I get to enjoy grown-up conversation. If I"m on my own, then I get to choose a meal without fighting kids about fast-food, and can either watch non-kid-friendly TV or work more on something that's important to me or I can re-arrange my time to exercise at my leisure.

Sex has become a problem too. After reading other posts, I feel kind of weird saying this. This is usually the man's problem! But the problem is his lack of interest in me. He doesn't look at me, never notices what I look like. We did go out for Valentines' Day (a minor miracle!). I was wearing a short-ish black leather skirt (not trashy, and it was flattering on me). Nada. I could have worn a paper sack for all he noticed. I know I'm not un-attractive (not that I'm drop-dead gorgeous, but I do get enough second looks from men to know that many find me plenty attractive). He claims he doesn't have the urge sometimes either, and has had difficulty performing. I've suggested that he see a doctor, and he's thinking about it. He claims that it bothers him, but when things end early, if he were actually interested in making love, there are, um, alternative ways we could be enjoying each other even if one singular body part weren't cooperating. But that's not how things go. And I feel like I have to always be the one to ask for his attention.

I'm somewhere between looking for an excuse to leave and looking for an excuse to stay. If we didn't have kids, I probably would have left. I'm not seeing anyone, but some not-so-small part of me would really like to. No, I don't have anyone in mind. I am lonely. When I'm home, I feel depressed and angry and neglected. I've been trying to tell him how I feel, and he keeps trying to tell me that "its getting better". But nothing really changes. Except now, not only do I feel like I'm not wanted, but I feel like I'm causing fights by asking to be loved. Frequently, I think that it would just be easier to have my own home away from him, to not feel honor-bound to try to rope him into helping plan finances (because he'll just resent me for it and barely participate). We already aren't going out or talking much, and with the travelling, I'm starting to enjoy having time to myself.

I truly don't know why he wants to be married to me. I am afraid that it's for money (though, as I pointed out, he makes his own). I used to be afraid it was for housekeeping and sex on his part. But both of those seem to have disappeared. It can't be for recreational companionship or conversation--he doesn't seem to like spending time with me. I have tried asking, (gently, and in fights, which I know is bad) and get back non-committal responses. He says he can't explain it, but insists that he loves me. But he only insists with words and not actions.

--feeling sad,
Sue L

Have you checked for porn use?
Have you snooped for an affair?

I was going to ask the same as Prisca. Put some spyware on his phone to find out what he is doing on his phone. Can you see his bank statement?

Your marriage sounds uncannily like mine...from the extreme loneliness to the very same questions i ask myself, to the total lack of sexual interest on H's part. I completely empathize.

**edit**

He is usually playing games on his phone--video games. Some of them he has set up on our kids' tablets and they play too. No porn. I look every now and then at his bank statements (they come in the mail..I open may be one out of 3 or 4...he frequently doesn't open his own and they pile up in the kitchen!). When he's playing, he's not isolated somewhere. Frequently he's just stretched out in our bed or on the couch, not even hiding in the basement on his computer.

I don't suspect an affair. Part of my frustration for years is that if we don't go out with other people, he doesn't want to go out. And when we do go out, it's as if I'm not really there (he's there to talk to everyone else but me). If he's managing to have an emotional affair, I'm not sure where or when he would talk to the person.

A lot of me wonders if he's depressed (and likely I am too, at this point). And of course, after all this time, I constantly question what I'm doing wrong. Am I asking too much. Am I expecting too much. Did I change something about me that he now doesn't like? I keep thinking that maybe in the beginning I put too much idealism into our relationship and failed to see all the places that were going to cause us trouble (which then comes right back around to feeling like this is my fault). But I don't know how to fix it now, if it's even fixable. And I'm afraid that "fixing" it will mean going back to pretending to be happy while living with someone who doesn't seem to want to be with me except in the most superficial way.

There are many WS's on here who were communicating with an AP through online games. Does he play online games where he interacts and chats with others?

You can wonder about the 'what ifs' all you want, but it will not solve the problem. You can only solve the problem by moving forward with a PLAN, not rehashing your history or wondering how and why things happened to get you to where you are.

MB can give you the plan you need to transform your marriage. Have you read the basic concepts?

Have you communicated with your H how frustrated you? Does he realize you are unhappy and contemplating divorce? If so, is he interested in saving the marriage? Would he be willing to sign up for the online MB program, where you will have a set plan of attack and a coach to help you?

At this point, you can verbalize to him that you are frustrated and unhappy, and contemplating divorce. You can offer him a plan (MB) to transform your marriage and make you BOTH happy. The MB plan focusing on both parties getting their needs met, and following the POJA so that every decision is win/win and nobody loses. If you can sell him on how this would benefit HIM, it might help get him on board.

So, I have verbalized to him about all of this. Many times, actually. Many times over the marriage, though until recently I'm not sure he ever really heard me (and I always let things go). Most recently, I have had some success getting him to see that I am truly unhappy, and I have tried to verbalize exactly what I am feeling. Some of that led to our Valentines date (maybe the only one we've ever actually had--both his and his mothers' birthdays are that same weekend so every year we celebrate their birthdays).

To be fair, I have not verbalized things well in general. Generally "verbalize" = "fight" (complete with angry outbursts, tears, extreme frustration all around). I own that I have problems with this. I try to express problems calmly, respectfully, etc. But the initial statement of "I'm upset that.." either gets ignored (he has been known to randomly change the subject while I'm talking which shows that he's not even pretending to listen!) or puts him immediately on the defensive. And the end of our arguments generally result in no changes plus the cold shoulder from him. I have spent years simply avoiding mentioning problems and taking care of things myself (or trying to talk myself out of feeling upset by something) simply because the fight never fixes things and generally makes me feel worse. I realize that we are not handling conflict well at all, a problem which is fully 50% my fault, but again, to fix it, I would have to bring up the conflict and then the fact that we aren't handling conflict well itself becomes a conflict.

In fact, the fact that he doesn't talk to me, doesn't seem to like to play with me, doesn't like to plan things with me...the hardest part of bringing all this up is that it does (and did, more than once) result in a big fight. It's pretty awful to feel unloved, and try to talk about it, only to end up provoking a fight about why I feel unloved, and at the end he withdraws even further, which makes me feel worse.

We managed the other night a non-fighting conversation where I tried to ask gently about what he wants/likes/needs out of the relationship. His answer is that he can't verbalize it.

I can try to point him to the articles here, or to go find a copy of the book. I'm not convinced that he will read it, or that he won't simply get defensive or withdraw when I do that. Worse, I am afraid that he will pay lipservice to some of it, and then continue to accuse me of never being satisfied with anything he does.

A lot of me wonders what I'm fighting for. It is really hard right now to see that this relationship will ever get to what I thought I used to have (because the more I dwell on the whole problem, the more I realize that I had a lot of illusions and not so much reality).

Thank you all for listening/reading and offering support.

Stop fighting with your husband.

You have not answered most of my questions. The most basic is, have you read the basic concepts of this program?

If you have, then you will know that the basic concept is that you are at all times either filling, or depleting, your spouses love bank for you by either filling their emotional needs (filling) or love busting (depleting).

I would highly suggest you read the book Lovebusters to get more of an understanding of what those are. You are guilty of MANY love busters, I ascertain that just from reading your handful of posts here.

You complain about feeling 'unloved,' and I want to challenge you to ask yourself whether you feel you are filling your H's LB or depleting it with your behavior? Because DJ's, AO's, etc. are rapidly depleting it. Even if you are also filling some of his EN's, it is like putting water in a bucket with a hole in it if you are following that with LB's.

As far as your H spending time with you, are you enjoyable to spend time with?

I know I also *want* to spend time with you H, but then if we go out and he starts to LB, being around him is the LAST place I want to be.

I want to spend time with my H when he is at his best, not when he is doing things that bother me. Which are you?

I am not suggesting your H does not have many items to clean up on his own side, or that he is filling your EN's (clearly there are many he is not, like IC), or that he is not LBing also. But he is not here, you are. MB is not about keeping score or saying 'well if he's doing that then have at it, you do it too!' because that will serve to continue to destroy your marriage, not transform it into one of extraordinary care. You can only clean up your own side of the street first.

If you ask yourself if its worth it, if maybe you want to D anyway....well unless you are never going to have another relationship after D, then what harm is there is learning how to do it right? If you clean up your side of the street, and he decides he is not willing to also work the program and clean up his side of the street and you divorce, then you are a better person on the other side right? You are more prepared to have a positive healthy loving relationship down the road.

But you have two young children, so doing what you can to have this with your husband should be your primary goal.

Then you have not verbalized this at all. It is standard human behavior to get defensive and shut down when someone is being disrespectful. Why would you expect him to 'hear' you or take your complaints seriously if you present them in this way?

You have spent years avoiding the conflict, and that has resulted in...the conflict being avoided! It isn't quite fair for you to hold him accountable for things that he was not being made aware of, because you were 'avoiding conflict.'

If the fight doesn't fix things and makes you feel worse, then don't fight! MB can teach you how to communicate complaints WITHOUT fighting and without using LB's.

No, your own behavior is 100% your fault! And his behavior is 100% his fault. You can both choose to not fight.

Having AO's is a choice. You can choose not to have one, which is evident by the fact that you have probably never had an AO at your pastor or your boss. You choose to allow yourself to have one at your husband.

Wow. Lots of replies all of a sudden.

Bad math on my part. My behavior is 100% my fault. Communication can only be at most 50%, because my behavior can only affect what I do, and not how it is received on the other side. Or, just ignore the numbers and realize that i admitted that I am responsible for my own behavior.

I have read every topic on this website, probably multiple times. I remember stumbling across this once, more than a decade ago also, and reading this then. And trying to show it to my husband and getting shut down. I have been reluctant to bring it up again.

I have been unable to communicate a complaint in any form that causes anything to change, without a fight. That is the heart of the problem here. The more cheerful, listening, caring, etc I act, the less attention he pays to the complaint. Actually, he ignores a great deal of what I say, sometimes by such obvious mechanisms as interrupting me to change the subject, walking away, or putting the phone down (he did that one while I was informing him of hte death of my aunt, which i learned about while I was on business travel. Apparently my grief wasn't important enough for him to even pretend to listen to).

When I say I avoid conflict, it is because every discussion of a conflict ends up becoming a much bigger one. I do not recall ever feeling safe (emotionally) bringing up an issue. I tell him something's wrong, he denies it (even/especially when I say that i'm feeling hurt about xxx). He then tries to convince me that the problem is mine, in my head, that I'm too needy or codependent. All this while acting cold and withdrawn and scowling. Which usually makes me feel even worse. Then he acts all cold and withdrawn for a while afterwards (days, sometimes). Very passive agressive. The after effect of the conflict is what I keep trying to avoid--it isn't the 20 minute discussion that's the problem. Its three days of hurtful behavior that follows. Do I have a part in this issue? You bet. I've let it continue for many, many years. Attempting to change the pattern is painful and doesn't seem to be working. I am not up to the task alone.

The AO comment about a boss/pastor is interesting. I do not view my husband as a boss. That implies a power imbalance that is inappropriate, in my view, in a marriage. I want a partner, not a boss. I don't even understand the pastor part of that question. I have never been close enough friends with any pastor for that to be part of the discussion on how I would handle emotions when someone I care about treats me coldly. Pastors in my life have always been a public figure who is at best a friendly acquaintance. A better comparison is probably a friend or coworker.

And I have had angry outbursts at coworkers in the past (rarely, and not with the depth of emotion as with my husband). Usually for a similar pattern of behavior--negotiations over a conflict get ignored or shut down, and the coworker completely withdraws from communicating, generally to the detriment of my work. I do not believe that I ever reciprocate that part, btw. Even when I'm pissed at someone for screwing me up or making me late or making me look bad, I still complete my tasks that they are waiting on. I have learned over the years how to better handle some of these issues at work before getting to the AO level. It helps when I have others to whom I can vent my frustration. At home, I have no such thing. My husband used to get mad at me for talking to my female friends about our relationship, so in order to appease him, I stopped doing so. I don't have many female friends at all these days, and those friendships feel very superficial.

And thank you for asking whether I'm enjoyable to spend time with. This is an excellent question. If I have only my husband's reactions to me to judge by, I guess the answer is no. I have been unable to determine what things i could do differently in that area. His favorite activities exclude me. And he declines (to say it politely) my invitations for him to join me in an activity that I like (or one that neither of us have tried). There have been some things that we start doing together that he seems to really like, and then he will abandon me to continue it on his own (bowling was like that--we had fun in a league together once, and then he immediately signed himself up in a different one where there was no room for me). All this discussion plus the reminder of how I fail to maintain friendships might well point to a problem with me. Or maybe I'm looking for friendships with the wrong groups of people. That is something I've struggled with for quite a while, and my conflict with my husband is likely yet another aspect of that question.

To be clear, I do not wish to save my marriage at all costs for the sake of our children. They will not benefit from seeing two people who barely get along picking and fighting. Nor will they benefit from seeing two people who are miserable together put a pretty face on things in some sort of martyrdom for the sake of the children. One that disintegrates the moment they leave the house. I want better for them. I want a marriage where my husband and I are friends and partners. I want to show my children that such a marriage is possible and desirable.

I believe in marriage, in love, in nurturing relationships. I also believe that I deserve to have such a relationship, as long as i am willing to hold up my half of the bargain. I believe that such a marriage requires a lot of work, compromise, and attention to the needs of the other person. What I have been seriously questioning is whether my current efforts will ever reach that goal.

But have you actually snooped? Have you put spyware on his phone and computer? Not suspecting an affair or porn use does not mean it's not happening.

There is a lot of rather intense interest in snooping for affairs on this group and maybe rightly so given histories I've read here, but ya'll are kind of fierce about the whole thing. I'm just sayin'.

No, I have not (and will not) attempt to install any spyware or tracking software on his phone/computer. The simplest answer is that I couldn't if I wanted to and it wouldn't stick if I tried. He re-builds computers and re-installs phone ROMS frequently as a hobby (yes, a legitimate hobby, and not a crazy attempt to cover meandering...he once custom-painted a CPU case, complete with LED lighting and a water cooling system). Once upon a time we used to share a computer, but every time I'd go to log in, he would have re-built it and accidentally(?) wiped out all my own software (sewing/crafts/games that only I played)--we have separate machines now and will not go back. He does not have my password and I don't have his but both have left computers logged in as ourselves. Beyond that, there are legal, ethical, and general security concerns with knowingly installing malware on a machine. I refuse and arguments to the contrary will not persuade me (though I suppose some of ya'll will take that as a challenge anyway).

I have looked at his phone--it isn't locked. Nothing there to worry about. I have not looked at every game he's ever played, but ones he is currently playing do not have big social interaction components. When he's playing, he's clicking, not typing (poking the screen vs making words on a touch screen..obvious difference).

He rarely goes out alone without me-and not because I won't let him. Recently, he had a friend (one of our groomsmen) who tried to get him to meet up for drinks, and my husband "never got around to it" (I would have been absolutely fine with it, btw and even tried to encourage him to go--I wonder if I'd been silent if he would have gone). He is usually in bed before me, wakes after me, but leaves around the same time. We work for the same large corporation (different buildings, slightly different part of town), and we can use instant messenger at work (and I can generally see when he is at his desk or away). I have met most of his coworkers. He's an engineer, most of them are men. His main activity that isn't family-related is a volleyball league that is all men (so no younger woman there to tempt him).

If he is having an affair, I do not know how or when he could possibly be conducting it. Or he's having an affair or emotional one with a man (Something I don't entirely discount, btw). But the when/how is still a mystery.

My gut tells me that he isn't having an affair. But nor is he opening up anything to me and act like he resents me. I have broached the subject of counseling (separately or as a couple...with all his behavior recently I'm not sure he's not depressed or something else I'm not qualified to diagnose). Sometimes it feels like if I suggest anything (even as simple as offering what I thought was a favorite food for a meal), he will do the exact opposite. So, he hasn't exactly jumped at my suggestions.

Then I'm afraid we can't help you.