Oh BTW Ax and NM, I found a really good blog by an evangelical pastor that deals with adultery and divorce (he is divorced from his first wife due to her adultery). He had to endure an ecclesiastical trial and was almost removed from ministry for his divorce, which he did not initiate and even with her blatant, admitted and unrepentant adultery.

It's a good resource that deals with the Church's habit of shaming divorce (which is extremely public), while sometimes minimizing or even turning a blind eye to adultery (which is usually not public). One thing he reminds his readers of in the blog is "God hates divorce, but he calls adultery evil." God hates divorce because it breaks families and tears apart covenants. But in a fallen world, it is sometimes necessary, just as war is sometimes necessary. However, adultery is evil, punishable by DEATH. That is how seriously a holy God takes the sin of adultery. Of course, we don't stone adulterers anymore, but we do require true, real repentance, accompanied by real behavior change and true boundaries. That is evidence of real character change and maturity, which is what Christ requires of us.

The blog is called divorce minister.

Yes, without going into too much theology, that is why I have come to a personal conclusion that divorce and remarriage are permitted in the case of adultery. Our belief system is based on the Old Testament, and since the adulterers would have been put to death in the OT, I'm confident that Jesus permitted divorce in the case of adultery. I don't agree with those who say the exception is limited to fornication, which they then define as sex outside marriage during the engagement period. Obviously divorce is not required, but if we go back to the OT and see that widows/widowers are permitted to remarry, obviously if the unfaithful spouse had been stoned to death for adultery, the betrayed spouse would be widowed.

Divorce was understood in a much more liberal context under the law of Moses which is why Christ clarifies in the gospels that He saw no allowance other than adultery. Rabbis at the time would grant divorce for nearly any reason.

Paul expands on Biblical grounds for divorce beyond simply adultery covering abandonment and such and I don't see this as contradictory to what Christ said.

Only other thing I'd say is that I think a lot of the current attitudes in conservative theological circles about divorce are a reaction to how much divorce rates have exploded in the West, and there are some pretty radical opinions out there on the subject that are groundless. Arguing that remarriage of any sort challenges your salvation or disqualifies you for service in the church/clergy, etc etc. Silliness.

Recovery is a two person process and at some point you have to cut your losses if someone declines to participate.

And unless it bothers the mods or violates TOS, I don't mind anyone talking theology in this thread. I enjoy it.

It's edification on a very difficult subject.

I agree, ax. Before all this happened I hadn't really thought a lot about biblical grounds for divorce. So when my marriage came crashing down I found several websites for "standers" (people that commit to waiting indefinitely for their spouse to come home, taking very seriously their vow "'til death do us part"). Some of their arguments are convincing, but the ones that got me were the claims that if you gave up on God changing your spouse then you lack faith. I began to wonder if I was being too logical and not spiritual enough. I eventually talked with one of the pastors at my church and shared my concerns with him, and he assured me that God never promised that he would interfere with our spouses' free will. He pursues them just like he pursues everyone, but ultimately it is their decision.

Yes, NM.

I don't begrudge anyone who "stands" for thier marriage, but I would urge many to do it from the safety of Plan B. However, God clearly gives permission to divorce for "porneia", which encompasses the whole gamut of sexual immorality.

It's very difficult to be a divorced person in Christian circles. I have felt nothing but love from my church community here, but I still feel awkward sometimes. I think much of the issue is that divorce is so public--it's seen as a failure. It's almost easier for people to suffer silently through their spouse's affair and just not tell anybody. But by divorcing in the case of unrepentant, continuing adultery, you are truly sticking up for God's standards. We are called to call out and confront evil. Even if one stands for their marriage, at least being in Plan B says to the world, "I do not condone this. I will not participate or enable it."

This is so true. God never promises to force people to do things against their will according to our dictates. If he did, then God would be little more than a cosmic puppeteer.

I had a strictly orthodox view of divorce/remarriage (only in case of adultery), sincerely held, for most of my life.

It wasn't until somewhat recently that I allowed myself to accept I Corinthians 7/abandonment of an UNBELIEVING spouse as permission to be free of the marriage and to remarry. However, this places the believer subject to several flukes (that the spouse does not profess to be a believer and will initiate the leave and file for divorce).

My unbelieving spouse wouldn't do that, so there I sat, subject to the abuse, and my health being run down.

In one of the million+ prayers where I was PLEADING with God to please show me a way to survive while honoring His will for a married believer, God finally in answer to finally, ONE of those prayers by directing me to the last half of Isaiah 28, where Israel has entered into a covenant of death (parallel: marriage was always refereed to as a covenant in my church) in which God is instructing them to exit. This is a new concept for me....the first time I realized there is a place in the Bible where God is telling his people to BREAK a COVENANT.

God tells them the bed will never be long enough or the covers wide enough to find comfort. The chapter concludes with the command to take a stick and beat it out. The final verse stood alone, didn't really mix in with the rest of the chapter but it simply said something about God's ways are higher than ours and we must rely on his wisdom (all of this is completely paraphrased - I read it in the KJV, so not sure if the other translations would bear out this paraphrasing.) In spite of endless prayers for wisdom to know what to do, only this ONE time I was given to understand that God had heard my prayer and directed me to an answer.

I just wanted ever so much to trust in God and take the step to beat it out, but my social structure would not support that (nor at the time my own narrow viewpoint). I would be risking a divorce against everything I had ever believed ...plus be sentenced to be single for the rest of my life unless I risked censure and excommunication), neither of which seemed like a possibility to me.

I continued in my marriage in complete disobedience to this command of the Lord's, and everything only become more miserable by the week and month. Eventually I was about to break and was losing my health. I think God finally took mercy on my well intentioned (how can I do this within the word of God as I understand it?) but ignorant disobedience, knowing I'd run myself to the grave before I'd intentionally provoke a divorce that was not in what my narrow viewpoint understood his favor to be. God permitted me to get the "fluke" several years later when my xH said he was going to divorce me, and imitate the filing.

Because now I had I Cor 7 to rest on, I put this struggle away and didn't think of it anymore.

Then I met a very wonderful divorced man who had similar struggles as mine, but he did NOT get the fluke that I got (an unbelieving spouse who filed). Rather his wife (contrary to her fruits) did claim to be a believer and he eventually had to be the one to file.

In my heart and soul I had to admit his situation was no different than mine, and it sent me back to learn and understand Isaiah 28 better. In my research, I came across a woman who had endured a similar situation and her writings really opened my eyes to how Isaiah 28 fit with God's teachings on divorce.

There is a passage (in Matthew I believe?) which describes church discipline procedures where if someone is offending you, you go and tell him by yourself. If the offense won't stop you come back with 2 or 3 witnesses. If it still doesn't stop, it goes to the church for discipline and ultimately the person is put out as an unbeliever and excommunicated (please excuse my paraphrasing again).

This beautifully reconciles Isaiah 28 (beating out the covenant with death) with 1 Cor 7. Think about it - where does the Bible's standard remedies for misbehavior (in this Matthew passage, or in Proverbs regarding an angry man, etc etc) EVER say "unless the other person is a spouse, and then you just have to take it". No where. NEVER!!!

I believe our churches do a horrendous disservice by ignoring completely what one should DO in a marriage when the other partner does not behave - and further, refuses to behave - within the principals of marriage as God designed them. I've hear so many wives submit/husbands love sermons where it is simply pretended that that's all there is to it, that if I EVER attend a church where there's another one, I will walk out and go home.

I couldn't have obeyed better or submitted better to fix my marriage. We need ACTIONABLE teaching within the guidelines of God's Word for how to fix our marriages when the start to wobble, not a bunch of pablum puke pretending all we need to know is what the other person is supposed to do.

Then we need a remedy for when our spouse refuses to cooperate whatsoever within the institution of marriage. God does not intend for us to be in a situation that our health is unable to bear (another paraphrase)...there has to be a solution.

I'm very much at peace with my new understanding of a Christian's liberty to divorce under these circumstances. I may pay for it with censure/excommunication in the future, but I am willing to stand by my convictions because I know them, and have experienced them, to be the will of God in my life.

I strongly disagree with this interpretation of the Malachi statement. Malachi 2:16 does not say that God hates divorce per se.

Malachi says that God hates the treachery and violence which are the cause of divorce.

Malachi 2: 14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.

15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

16 For the Lord, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the Lord of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.

Here is an ESV version if that's easier:

14 But you say, �Why does he not?� Because the Lord was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. 15 Did he not make them one, with a portion of the Spirit in their union?[f] And what was the one God[g] seeking?[h] Godly offspring. So guard yourselves[i] in your spirit, and let none of you be faithless to the wife of your youth. 16 �For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her,[j] says the Lord, the God of Israel, covers[k] his garment with violence, says the Lord of hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and do not be faithless.�

NIV translation:
14 You ask, �Why?� It is because the Lord is the witness between you and the wife of your youth. You have been unfaithful to her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.

15 Has not the one God made you? You belong to him in body and spirit. And what does the one God seek? Godly offspring.[d] So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful to the wife of your youth.

16 �The man who hates and divorces his wife,� says the Lord, the God of Israel, �does violence to the one he should protect,�[e] says the Lord Almighty.

So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful.

This is upsetting - people just add what they want to the word of God and pretend their logic is a solid as - and even PART OF - the inspired word. This is completely made up regarding something they are not enduring and that they know nothing about other than their pious, self righteous imaginings on how THEY THINK God SHOULD run other people's lives.

When my divorce was evolving, and my health was at the end of what I could take, I was coming to the realization that I would be ready to initiate a divorce when I was ready to stand alone on God's word, with God, and against everyone I knew and my church.

My own father does not see 1 Cor 7 as an exception, so even though I eventually received that, I am still standing with God against condemnation from others who have not been through the trenches, and therefore the enlightenment that a 25 year struggle for answer might bring.

Agreed.

Thank you Sunnytimes for your posts. They are very thoughtful and well-written. It's very cool to see how your position evolved and your respect of God and scriptures really shows through your arguments.

On the standers - Many times Christ dealt with the Pharisees and teachers of the law rather harshly because they were missing the forest for the trees out of over-zealousness for the law. They wanted to grasp white-knuckled onto the letter of the law rather than the spirit of it, and drew some really stupid (and sometimes convenient) conclusions that way.

Paul sort of gets at a closer approximation of the same problem in 1st Corinthians 7 with some believers in the church at Corinth who were married but had decided that sex was evil through their own overzealous interpretation of teachings on sexual immorality. His argument about why this is wrong is interesting because it zeroes in on this behavior as something that is likely to cause the individuals practicing (and their spouses) it serious spiritual harm.

That's kind of how I feel about the standers (which I hadn't heard of but I'm not terribly surprised by).

God demands obedience but I think people who believe God is leading them into a situation (or continuing a situation) where they are placed in extreme spiritual peril are not listening to God (or reading his book!).

What's interesting about Paul's writing is that he basically says on the celibacy debate (whether or not to get married) that it's different for each person...each person has their own threshold for whether they can hack it or not.

Sort of how I feel about the standers. If you can stomach that, more power to you. But someone who can't is not committing a sin.

I see it as very unlikely (and even unscriptural) that God's intention for that person was to live in a situation where they would be put in such spiritual peril. If you got married in the first place, you were created to have the sort of marriage described in 1st Corinthians and Ephesians which is the sort of one the MB program creates....extraordinary care. Willfully subjecting yourself to extreme abuse/neglect/abandonment by your spouse is sort of taking Paul's advice about who should be married (and why) and throwing it out the window.

What's interesting to me is that all 4 of us (me, PW, nwmb, ST) have identified social pressures and popular thinking as a major fear we had approaching divorce. That speaks a bit to where these "save the marriage at any cost" attitudes really come from.

Got my divorce decree paperwork in the mail today from my law office.

All is in order but one interesting detail...Ex's signature is notarized by a notary public about 1000 miles away.

Who knows what the story is there, but it is bizarre. No family in that area and doubtful OM uprooted to head that far out of town, as he has been in this area for 20+ years from what the public records say and has lots of family here. But he may have family there too, who knows.

Makes me wonder just exactly what effect exposure had on her and them, as even though her family's reaction was limp-wristed and enabling, the exposure was broad enough that I can see where they might have still got quite an earful from the targets on my list. Both of them canceled their cell numbers within a week or two of the exposure (WWs I know from what her family told me and OM complains about "being forced to change my phone number" in his RO).

Not that it matters a whole lot to my day to day at this point, it's more of a "hmmm....to be a fly on the wall!" sort of thing since for the most part I've heard nothing from her about that part of this story.

This isn't unlike her to want to relocate suddenly (part of our dating was long-distance while she lived in SoCal for 6 or 8 months) and from my experience with her at that time, what this tells me is that is very possible she is emotionally reeling from all of this right now.

Unless she got a great opportunity out there, I am surprised to see her acting like this. She and OM seemed to have quite the little scheme hatched in their own minds about this business startup of theirs and unless it's the traveling sort, that sure didn't take long to abandon. If there is no sweet gig for her out there, I actually feel a bit sorry for her. At some level (she's said this to me before verbatim...back when we were dating) she is aware that she pushes people away/runs away when she feels insecure. I wouldn't even be surprised if there's another OM in that area she's attached to. It would fit the mold for a more adult version of how she was about relationships when she was younger. Hopefully not, for her sake.

At this point I expect the calendar year to run out with no change, and until then I'm focusing on tying up loose ends in my career and personal life before I start dating next year so that I can give that my full attention. I know I'm a renter until I actually get married again, but I wouldn't have even been close to 15 hours UA in my marriage and I want to make sure my life is ordered enough by the time I'm married again that it isn't a problem.

What I have noticed is that the worst/"most trainwreck-y" parts of a wayward's personality comes out when they are reeling. Your exWW's tendency to pick up and run is probably coming out now. She probably moved because she thought that was the exciting, care-free thing one does when one gets divorced (all the movies say so. It would kind of be a "when Ax's ex got her groove back" sort of thing, except that her groove is very messed up and reality will hit her in the face fairly soon. If she is in Southern California, then the reality of "it's ridiculously expensive, and it takes two hours to get anywhere, and my water bill is $800 per month, and this other man is an idiot" will sink in soon enough. By then, Ax will have happily moved on being 29 ( geez 29!) and childless with many single women pinning over him. Poor Ax's ex. Oh well, let her enjoy her drought and traffic.

Mine has 10k in credit card debt from the past 8 months we've been separated and moved into a ridiculously expensive place--probably to impress whatsherface (I know this through court documents). Meh. Let his profligate spending and debt be someone else's problem. Let's see if his college student pays off his car and credit card debt like I did. Oh, and she'll have to probably pay his child support as well.

Haha, good points PW!

This time isn't SoCal actually. When she was out there, that actually made sense because she has a lot of extended family in that area that she stayed with. Also there is a lot of attraction to SoCal.

This time it is rural Colorado.

Her entire immediate family lives in like a 100 mile radius near where I am. I doubt any of them get to see her now.

Southern California, rural Colorado, it hardly matters. What matters is they way she lives her life is an enormous trainwreck and even crazy consequences like losing her husband, don't phase her (at least for now). Whether she is in the city or the woods, it'll all catch up to her eventually.

I have a friend (actually he was WH's friend, and a groomsman at my wedding) who was in the same position as you with his first wife. He is now happily married with a toddler and another one on the way. So things will go well for you, my friend.

what is Dr Harley's email address?

Axe,

You wrote, Makes me wonder just exactly what effect exposure had on her and them,... the exposure was broad enough that I can see where they might have still got quite an earful from the targets on my list. Both of them canceled their cell numbers within a week or two of the exposure

Not that it matters a whole lot to my day to day at this point,

I think it does matter as it is a very good story to tell women you date, I would guess it would be a great deterrent to serial cheaters as they would know you're not just another push over.

I think it has put you in a much better place psychologically then many who have gone through the same. The other function Dr Harley says exposure serves is to end the marriage sooner and relieve the pain.

Too bad my W's friends H didn't know about this in his first marriage, he wasted 10 years with an on again off again wife.

Gamma

I agree with this. There is justice in exposure, even if you get divorced. This DID happen. You are NOT crazy. That was the most useful thing for me. I was able to tell my story--that this was happening and I didn't want it to be happening and I CARED that he was doing it. He was basically saying, "she's a horrible, frigid you-know-what and she couldn't care less about me or what I am doing." Totally not true on any front.

And I agree with Gamma: exposure basically speeds up recovery or divorce. After exposure, you know what you are dealing with pretty quickly by their response to exposure.

From the MB Radio page:

"Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Because of the high volume of questions that are sent, a response is not guaranteed. "