Not sure where to Post this, but having read an excellent archived article on Flirting / Teasing by "Mulan" (from 2007 I believe) I just had to Post my situation somewhere here.

And... I am NOT looking for overall relationship advice, just simply whether I am being overly jealous or paranoid... Or is there a majority consensus that there is a level of flirting going on here!

First of all, should point out that spouse and I have had some degree (usually milder) problems since mid 2000s which broke open into a more major problem in late 2013 which led to me separating for a couple months or so.

My concern here is that if there is some type of flirtatious behavior going on (even if not recognized by my spouse as such or not, or if felt to be "harmless fun") that I be able to either "nip in the bud" or at least be fully aware of what is happening.


I felt that this would be a proper place to post as what is going on is a form of a date... just not a "date" involving the spouse!

This situation is a mixed league (MF /MF) bowling league that bowls on a weekend night. It involves just one partner (spouse - who was previously paired up not with current bowling partner, but a relative - who has since been replaced by a "sub" who is a close friend of the other male on their team).

I am not only not involved (not asked), but am actively discouraged from going at all.

Particulars:

It is a bowling league environment where everyone else is doing high fives (strikes or difficult spares picked up), or fist bumps (spares not made), that most of the times he, my spouse's partner, (who started out as a sub and I don't know at all - nor did she, until now anyway; he's a close friend of the other male on this MF / MF team) and my spouse instead do this with JUST each other...

One will hold their hand out flat and horizontal with palm up. When the other responds with their hand out flat and palm down, instead of a high five, they slide their fingertips across the other's palm and fingertips in a single soft stroking movement. It is a modification of the "gimme skin" maneuver that (like high fives, slapping five, fist bumps, etc.,) came from the "dap greeting".

And that's whether it's a high five situation or a fist bump situation. (The gimme skin move - especially as modified - does, I understand, have supposedly flirtatious connotations when done between opposite sexes)

This is what is done by them instead of high fives / fist bumps well over 90% of the time.

And either can / does initiate it.

No high fives or fist bumps hardly ever... just this.

I haven't really paid much attention before now as there's only been like 4-5 games to this point (where I have casually stopped by... and yes, done in front of me as it appears to have become so natural), but it's hit me how consistent it is and has me now wondering if that action is a flirting maneuver (especially as it is only done softly and not "macho" or with exuberance).

And especially with the fact that they DO perform high fives and fist bumps with the other members of the team (and with persons on the team that is being played occasionally) as when appropriate - and never does the "palm stroke" with them!

BTW, I only see any of the other bowlers doing high fives or fist bumps (or occasional double high fives or hugs between obvious "partner couples"). I haven't seen any others do this "palm / fingertips slide".

Simply having fun?

Meaningless good time?

Or some degree of flirting (even if at simply some subconscious level)???

Note: My wife has a history of being highly naive and innocent of the activities of others (throughout our relationship there were instances of mistakenly interpreted but clear to any normal person that it was an outright HMU pickup attempt... rhetorically could have had dire consequences - and not exaggerating either: in one instance she approached a guy that she THOUGHT she knew slightly and began super nicely chatting away; not him... a complete stranger - who took her by the elbow and started steering her outside the store suggesting that they "go get a drink"; she was so stunned that all she could think to say - I think she still thought it was the guy she / we slightly know - was "well, we should ask my husband first", as I was walking around corner of nearby aisle just then - thankfully as they were about 15' from store exit... and the guy released her and literally took off running out the store and completely through the parking lot - obviously didn't want me to see the car he got into... I could relate numerous similar incidents from over the years).

Anyway, while it "is" possible that this is being done mutually and with eyes wide open, it is just as possible that this sweetly modified gimme skin (and chatting, etcetera) move was started by him and she just went along with it, not grasping its significance or that he was doing it just with her and that other bowlers do not use that gestur (but would still insist that it was ME that was wrong, just once again being "totally unreasonable"!).

But... am I just misreading things and being jealous, unreasonable, paranoid even???

Or is this indeed a form of flirting???

Thank you.

"Mulan" post from 2007, just because (IMO) it is so great!

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1980123

Welcome to MB.

Your wife shouldn't be playing in a mixed bowling league without you. She also should not do anything that involves having a male partner who is not you. She should not be carrying out recreational activities without you.

You need to ask her to give up that activity, and you need to replace it with a recreational activity that involves just the two of you having fun.

The fact that she has this separate activity suggests that the rest of your marriage is not in great shape. It sounds as if you have independent lifestyles. Is that the case?

We have independent lifestyles to a large degree because that is HER choice (like with minimal sex). She doesn't want to go on dares or road trips with me (I'd love to). She doesn't want to socialize outside her circles (which other than family does NOT include me - she has her own groups). She believes that I should find th I vs to do... that don't involve her.

We watch TV together. We sit doing our (separate) computer games just feet apart... for hours. She sits in the kitchen for hours on her laptop doing her part-time job (a good place to retreat to if I try to become talkative). She is very outgoing and social and talkative with ANYBODY... but NOT with me. She doesn't even particularly like to even talk to me. Her very tone of voice becomes very much more positive and even exciting if even just talking to someone else - anyone - on the telephone (when I have pointed that out and then accused of lying about it, I have offered to record just her end of the call - the part that I hear anyway - and she has gone ballistic... that I would "dare tape her" - note the not-so-subtle misdirection?).

So, you're saying that activity IS flirting?

Flirting is flirting. That's a pretty specific act.

What SC is saying is that having independent lifestyles will destroy your marriage and lead to affairs.

Have you tried brainstorming to come up with activities you both like and can enjoy together? It shouldn't be an either/or kinda deal where one person has fun and the other is bored. You may need to come up with something more enticing to your wife (which you also enjoy) in order to get her to join you.

Why, then is she married to you? Has your marriage ever been better than this?

No, I didn't say that. I didn't address that, because I think it is irrelevant. What is relevant is that she should not be doing that sport without you at all.

I should answer your question.

It's very likely that your wife is having, or about to have, an affair with that man. That flirtatious behaviour is probably the tip of a very large iceberg. You need to find out how deep their relationship goes, and get her away from that sport - both at the same time. Start spying on her, and also ask her to stop going.

It probably won't be easy to get her to agree not to go; not if she's having an affair, and also because she is used to her independent lifestyle. She is not going to give this up just because you ask. However, the first thing you need to do is ask, and then talk about creating an integrated lifestyle.

Your marriage is in great trouble. It needs a complete overhaul.

Are you married?

I shouldn't have use the word "irrelevant". What I should have said was that your focusing on the details of that act was to ignore the much bigger problem beneath it.

What were these problems, and what specifically led to your separating in 2013?

Yes, it has been better.

It currently has cycles of being VG.

I am married because I love her more than anything or anyone.

Um, we had our first date when 15 (chaperones). It looked like it might be our last date as my folks (divorced) went in different directions and we were 1200 miles apart. 18 months later, a month after she turned 17, I returned in early June that year back to this area to visit my dad for part of that summer. She was babysitting for dad and stepmother. Within a couple weeks we were dating steadily, then I decided to stay with my dad and we started "going steady" since we only dated each other. Then in November I proposed to her. She said yes. I joined the Marines a couple months later and we got married when I graduated from Boot Camp. She was just a couple months past her 18th birthday. When I got out of Marines I went right into law enforcement. We had 4 children (5, one didn't survive) and 13 grandkids. She is still beautiful, very outgoing (sometimes too much so?), and desirable.

I think that the fact that we have weathered a separation over a year ago and that she's still here speaks volumes for her feelings. It is just a longer road for her and she has a lot of "past history conflicts" (childhood / early teens IMO),but....

And I am a traditionalist. When I took the vows I meant them. It was my word. My oath. And I meant every word of it. "For better or worse" weren't just some nice sounding words.

But it doesn't mean that one sits back and not strive to resolve relationship conflicts. Maybe had I done so earlier in the marriage, been more insistent on what boundaries there had to be (for both of us)...

Right now the issue of it (the flirting) being relevant IS important as I want to be able to show her (when this gets discussed post season that the majority - hopefully - believes that it IS flirting and not good.

And yes the next point to be discussed will be activities. Like if you really want to bowl, then join a Women's League with some of your lady friends and for every night out with them (she already has dinner with them weekly), we set up something to do.

Right now she feels we spend too much time together as she equates simply being in the same house (doing nothing together) as "being together most of the time).

No, trust me, SugarCane is right. Most men here don't make progress by trying to prove to their wives that they are wrong and should think differently about something. I've seen tons of men get stuck trying to do that and it's a dead end.

A better approach is to get your wife to buy in to the idea that neither one of you should be engaging in behavior that the other is not enthusiastic about. Have you read Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts? Are you listening to Dr. Harley's radio show, daily?

She has NOT had a physical affair with me in our decades long marriage.

Of that I am sure.

Her thing is EMOTIONAL INFIDELITY... turning to others to meet her non physical needs (she's not even into sex much any more at her age). Additionally, the male bowling partner is 20 years younger. While I won't say he doesn't have a Cougar Complex, I feel he does this very covert sly approach with girls 8-80. I wish he wOULD physically come on to her - just not sicko, as it would scare her to death and accomplish in moments what will take me months!!!

I'm sorry, but I didn't ask you this. I asked you why she is married to you.

What I am getting at is: She seems to have no desire to have a close marital relationship with you. She seems to have fallen out of love entirely. She seems to have little to do with you. Why, then, does she stay married to you?

You need to worry about the whole picture of your marriage.

Why would you wait until the season is over to discuss this with your wife?

I don't know if it is flirting. Since they are bowling partners, they may have a different form of "skin" because of that alone but whether it is flirting or not...it bothers you so it should stop.

Welcome to MB

x 2

Those are famous last words. We've seen them on this board a thousand times, always from someone who goes on to find out that their spouse has indeed had an affair. But I'll ask you anyway: how can you be sure?

You shouldn't bother making a distinction between physical and emotional infidelity. Both are destructive to marriages.

Perhaps you only meant it as a joke, but the comment about wishing he would physically come on to her is screwed up.

Why did you separate? I would not assume that no longer being separated speaks volumes since you don't have an integrated marriage.

You said you are prior military and police (still working?)...did you have long deployments from your wife or work hours that were not conducive to an integrated marriage? Was your wife a SAHM?

You were asked that question before. Please answer it.

SugarCane,

If you fully read replies, you'd see where I assuredly DID answer your this.

After our separation and my return (with understanding that this would only be with our working to improve things - and after divorce was discussed, which she ALSO took off the table), that she is still here. And still working on things. I have been back 10 months - I don't expect things got be 100% magically fixed in that time period; just that progress be made.

And it has been.

So what I'm I doing here? (Maybe this Topic Area was the bad place to post as I am NOT concerned about an affair and have no intention of ever having one)...

Well, as I noted this problem developing, as I have seen on a periodic occasion over almost FIFTY YEARS, well, I felt that approaching it in a way different from "Me versus Her", was to have some unbiased, other individuals' data to point to and be able to say, that it's not just me that interprets this as "flirting"...whether intentional, not grasped as such, thought of as just meaningless fun, or whatever, it IS flirting.


Just to specifically take the "personal factor" out and provide a starting point for discussion with a lessened "defensive attitude" (which is why she defends whatever activity occurred, once she concedes that she "now sees what was happening" as being "so my meaningless fun and being friendly, not REALLY flirting" -- even in those cases where it was 100% the other person's fault). It jumps away from being about the issue to that of it being me "overly jealous" because of that defensiveness.

That is what I am trying to avoid. The personal attack mindset and resulting jump to defensiveness... I really thought that it would be a good idea (interestingly, I have had a few on some forums say that it IS strictly me, that it's just harmless fun and that I am making a mountain out of a molehill... though most identify it as SOME form of flirting).

So we've been married almost 46 years and there's been maybe 10-12 instances like this over the years. That's what? Like 1 every 4. 1/2 years. So it's not like we're talking constantly ongoing conduct (which seems to have been assumed). This incident in particular? She doesn't know the guy other than bowling. He is a close friend of the other male on their team (our daughter's BF, as the other couple is daughter and her BF). His background and who, what, where is NOT known by her. She leaves home just early enough to make the games and returns home right after the games. They don't communicate away from the games (yes, I know that). He subbed a game a couple months ago then after a couple games with the regular partner, he was eased in (by daughter and - mainly - her BF) as he is more fun with them than the regular and a MUCH better bowler.

Anyway, there have been like 5 sessions where he was there. Like 2 individual ones where he was a legit sub (the second of which I "popped in" just by chance as I had already disregarded the "prefer you not come" position and stopping in long before that. And then have attended the other 3 since then on purpose (BTW, the league season lasts like 8 months, with bowling every other Saturday night, so we're talking a couple hours every two weeks in a very crowded bowling alley).... And, as previously mentioned, he is 20 years younger (went to HS with daughter and her BF).

I really think that the wife doesn't even know that it is specifically going on (her daughter and daughter's BF high five and fist bump so that's what she does with them; he does this gimme skin move, so, oh well, that's what I do with him... that line of thinking), and would NOT like me doing that as a repeated greeting with some female, even if well known). Personally, I think that he does it because he's a card, he gets a thrill out of it, and thinks it's funny (I note that when I pop in - and do always stay - that he seems to pout, and the "activity" lessens, just seems to happen without thinking when it does).

So once again, it's back to HOW to address it while by-passing the immediate defensive reaction.

So why make a fuss at all? Because whether regular or extreme occasional, whether intentional or unaware, whether vaguely perceived but just written off as "harmless being very friendly", the fact is that it is hurtful and should be addressed (for exams, she doesn't walk up to strangers that she THINKS is someone she VAGUELY knows and start chatting away anymore... after the lesson learned from that incident!).

Just as spelled out here:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1980123

And:

***EDIT***

So, maybe I have too much information and overloaded with details that were not necessary (though when I first tried a short version just worded generally, most readers apparently thought that this was something that I was doing - often in context of a single guy - and that I was questioning whether or not the female recipient was right to interpret as being flirtatious... So damned if you do and damned if you don't)!

Also, on the basis of "owning what is yours", this hasn't been a one-way street.

When we separated, I got a "list" of things that were MY problems and there were like NINE problem areas, later dropped to six as there were concessions that three of those weren't really problems that I was doing, but perceptions on her part that were incorrect (and one of those 9 included infidelity, flirting, etcetera). And I have been strongly working on fixing every one of those. Some have disappeared completely as problems and the others have all had significant progress.

Her list?

I didn't give her one. I felt it better - knowing her personality and responsiveness - to address problem situations as they come up rather than even a mental list which would (in her mind) hang over her head in a near insurmountable fashion (whereas I am a "list type person".

So again, I am not looking for layman level marriage counseling advice (no matter how well meant). WE have been married longer than some of you have been alive (SC, we had been married 20 years when you got married). As a former (long term) LEO, I have dispensed advice in formal domestic dispute cases in numbers that likely surpass the number of months that some of you have been alive.

All I am asking is that if you were in my shoes and this activity was going on between your spouse (or even SO) and someone barely known on a quasi (but consistent) regular basis, would you consider it flirting?

That's all. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Thanks (to include thanking for what I feel w as truly well meant advice, just not thought out and with all the information).