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My experience has shown me the opposite.. if I treat my wife as a non-BPD, she feels quite disrespected and defensive. If I use my understanding of her personality and emotional state and adapt my approach, I get much better results. If I get offended and personalize every attack that she makes on me, I cannot survive... If I depersonalize it and understand the deeper feelings she is projecting on me... I begin to understand her and respond without anger and defensiveness. Understanding the person you are trying to love and how they think and feel is not disrespectful.
I knew of her personality before we were married and if I disrespected her for it, I would not have married her. We have had discussions on how we are both different in this way, but we also complete each other.
If my WW feels disrespected, she is welcome to tell me so, and I am willing to accommodate any feelings that she has.
I do struggle to respect her for the text message string posted at the beginning of this thread. I feel quite betrayed, hurt, and disappointed. I do not disrespect her for making a mistake... I do have trouble with the fact that she still defends it and thinks it's OK. I have trouble respecting that. Dr Harley says that I have a right to my thoughts and opinions on that. I am right to be angry about it. Voicing that to her is a disrespectful judgement that he talks about and it serves no useful purpose. You are right though... it is hard to hide it sometimes. I think most of us betrayed spouses from time to time will slip and make a disrespectful judgement about the affair.
The problem with Dr Harely's approach is that it is very logical... you complete the checklist and your marriage will recover. This approach does not sit well with my wife. She says Dr Harley is a "jerk"... she is happy with the marriage as it is and we should not spend time together,we should not share passwords, we should not be open an honest, POJA is too "controlling".. etc...
I am looking for any possible suggestion.. I will try it and post the result here. Lets not continue to debate BPD please... tell me what to try and I will try it and provide the result. We need her to see the benefit of ending the affair and working towards a loving healthy marriage. I have a divorce already in process so there is nothing to lose at this point. The problem with your diagnosing your wife with BPD is that you are now customising MB, and declaring most of it unsuitable to your situation, because of what you have decided are her in-built limitations. That is exactly how Dr Harley describes the problem once people self-diagnose a personality disorder, and also when qualified people readily use these highly-contested labels. They find an immutable reason for anti-social and anti-marriage behaviour, and adjust their expectations accordingly. If you read through the thread that BrainHurt attached yesterday, you will see clear, irrefutable explanations from Dr Harley for why personality disorder labels should not be the focus when there are marital problems. It pretty much comes down to the fact that people who really DO have personality disorders are unlikely to have been able convince anyone to marry them, because there would have been terrible problems in any relationships they tried to forge. And if, for some reason, the problems surfaced only after marriage, they would be unmistakable; they would always include self harm, and the person would be unable to keep a job. They would not just be difficult, like your wife, with her ability to cut people out of her circle at a stroke, and her loving someone one moment and seeing them as evil the next. A person with a personality disorder would barely be able to function in society. There is nothing I have read about your wife that I haven't read about dozens of difficult spouses on this forum. There are spouses who seem utterly unfit for marriage, because in several ways they refuse to consider the happiness of the person to whom they are married. They won't acknowledge a complaint, they have angry outbursts all the time, they behave independently, they are sarcastic, aggressive, spendthrift..they behave badly. Your wife behaves badly. If you can get the affair to end, or if you can wait while it dies a natural death, and if your wife - even very reluctantly - decides to return to the marriage, you can work on creating an MB marriage, at which POJA and extraordinary care and protection are at its heart, or you can divorce if your wife refuses to create a happy marriage. You can also stay in a marriage that is unhappy for you, on the grounds that you want to live with your kids full time, and you do not want them to have a stepfather. I have heard Dr Harley say that some men that he counsels, whose wives refuse to stop their affair or do other work on the marriage, choose to stay put for those reasons. They plan to stay until the youngest child is either old enough to choose to go with the father, or is out of the house. That a huge sacrifice to make, but some men are prepared to make it. What you are unlikely to get is support for diagnosing your wife as having a personality disorder, then picking and choosing which bits of Marriage Builders you think you can apply to your marriage. I do recommend, as others have suggested, that you write directly to Dr H about your situation. Do it now; don't put this off. Thank you!!!! this is a great post and gives me some encouragement to press on. So many have told me that my wife is BPD and just run away as fast as I can. My gut keeps telling me not to do this. I need to spend some time carefully crafting a note to Dr Harley, but I will do it. I don't think my kids will have a step father anytime soon... the OM is a loser and would never make a father. More realistically... I will go through a nasty custody battle and find my kids the best step mom I can and demonstrate a healthy relationship to them from all I have learned. I am willing to live an integrated lifestyle with a 50/50 partner in life and I fully agree to all Dr Harley's principles. My wife does not subscribe to this, but I still hope that she will come around before the Divorce is final. Ii would like to give my kids the gift of their biological mom if at all possible. I am still open to any suggestions... when I see my WW, what should I say? When she asks to take her next trip to the state of the OM, what should I say? (obviously, I will say NFW... but what else?) When I ask her on a date and she says no, I don't have time... what should I say? etc..
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Things that I expect from a rational person without a PD:
#1 Being able to admit a mistake, say I'm sorry
#2 Discuss an issue at hand... not bring in events from 10 years ago like it is happening right now
#3 Ask for what you want
#4 Not blame every single problem on someone else
#5 Understand what an inappropriate boundary is with someone of the oposite sex
#6 Understand that kidnapping your children across the country is wrong
#7 Not walk out of marriage counseling (for no reason)
#8 Do not hit your spouse
#9 Be able to balance a checkbook
#10 Be able to get up in the morning and hold a job
#11 Be willing to negotiate or make a compromise
#12 Be able to talk like an adult when you have a problem or are upset about something
etc... So because she does those things, she has a personality disorder. That logic is astonishing. No...the opposite.
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Things that I expect from a rational person without a PD:
#1 Being able to admit a mistake, say I'm sorry
#2 Discuss an issue at hand... not bring in events from 10 years ago like it is happening right now
#3 Ask for what you want
#4 Not blame every single problem on someone else
#5 Understand what an inappropriate boundary is with someone of the oposite sex
#6 Understand that kidnapping your children across the country is wrong
#7 Not walk out of marriage counseling (for no reason)
#8 Do not hit your spouse
#9 Be able to balance a checkbook
#10 Be able to get up in the morning and hold a job
#11 Be willing to negotiate or make a compromise
#12 Be able to talk like an adult when you have a problem or are upset about something
etc... So because she does those things, she has a personality disorder. That logic is astonishing. No...the opposite. oh please. WE all know what Sugarcane meant and so do you. Nothing on your list indicates a disorder.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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You realize people do those things all the times right? Especially during an affair.
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The point I am trying to make with you is that you can not be your wife's therapist and her spouse at the same time. As long as you persist in analyzing your wife, you will never be able to foster a marriage of equals. You can be sure the OM isn't analyzing your wife. That is a big reason why he has an upper hand over you right now.
me-65
wife-61
married for 40 years
DS - 38, autistic, lives at home
DD - 37, married and on her own
DS - 32, still living with us
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Things that I expect from a rational person without a PD:
#1 Being able to admit a mistake, say I'm sorry
#2 Discuss an issue at hand... not bring in events from 10 years ago like it is happening right now
#3 Ask for what you want
#4 Not blame every single problem on someone else
#5 Understand what an inappropriate boundary is with someone of the oposite sex
#6 Understand that kidnapping your children across the country is wrong
#7 Not walk out of marriage counseling (for no reason)
#8 Do not hit your spouse
#9 Be able to balance a checkbook
#10 Be able to get up in the morning and hold a job
#11 Be willing to negotiate or make a compromise
#12 Be able to talk like an adult when you have a problem or are upset about something
etc... So because she doesn't do those things that you expect from a person without a PD, she has a personality disorder. That logic is astonishing.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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I listened to my WW today, here is what she said:
She asked if I wanted the divorce... I said no, I want a 50/50 partnership and loving marriage. Will you go on a date with me?
She said no. I want your entire paycheck and I want 100% control over how it is spent.
She said 100% of everything is my fault and I need to change. She said that she will not go on a date with me until I give her money and I change.
I asked her what she wanted to change. She said that I made a comment about her using a flat iron on her hair a coupe weeks ago and that offended her. She said that I didn't do everything on my "honey do list" quickly enough for her, so that must mean that I don't care and am not worthy of going on a date with.
She asked to travel alone with the kids to the same state as the OM. I said no.
She said that it is impossible to have an affair with someone that lives so far away.
She also said that she would not go on a date with me because I have not dropped my petition for divorce. She said that if we do divorce, she wants me to drop the psychiatric evaluation that the court has ordered and she wants to settle it out of court.
How do you think I should respond to this????
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Never negotiate with a wayward, EVER! Especially one this deep in the fog/affair.
They never negotiate, they only demand 100% their way. If you give them what they want, they will NEVER return the favor.
What to say to her, say something innocuous like - what do you want for dinner, that is a nice blouse you are wearing and walk away. She is testing you!!!!!!!!!
BTW- that is the most entitled BS fog babble i have seen in awhile.
Last edited by NebDane; 10/30/15 04:32 PM.
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I forgot to mention a couple things...
#1 she also asked for $15K that she owes her mom. I said fine.. give me a list of what you owe her for and we will start from there. She said "why, you don't trust me?" I said, if I asked for $15K would you not ask me what it is for?
#2 Regarding the trip to the other state... if it is really to only see family and not the OM then she won't mind if I come right? Why would I not come along? The other issue is that we really don't have the money for such a trip right now. I said, why don't we stay at home and work on our marriage and just have some family time?
Do you think this affair is really still going on? Is it possible that this is WW Fog this long after it started? 1 year? The guy is such a loser that I just struggle to believe that she could be in a Fog over him.
I said, you want all this money, and so much from me... all I asked you for was a date? It's only a couple hours of your time. Would you rather spend 8 hours in court or a couple hours with me that costs you nothing. Why would she be so illogical about that?
What is she testing me for? It seems like she wants me to prove how much I love her and nothing is enough. She kept saying prove it... actions not words. I'm a smooth talker but no action. She wants to see money.
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I
What is she testing me for? It seems like she wants me to prove how much I love her and nothing is enough. She kept saying prove it... actions not words. I'm a smooth talker but no action. She wants to see money. Don't give her any money. Don't allow her to ruin you financially.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Don't give her money!!!!!
ASking her why she isn't logical is a waste of time.
She is testing you to see what you will give her and how much she can get away with.
At this point you can give her everything and it will not be enough, so DO NOT fall for this trap.
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Thank you!!!! this is a great post and gives me some encouragement to press on. So many have told me that my wife is BPD and just run away as fast as I can. My gut keeps telling me not to do this. I need to spend some time carefully crafting a note to Dr Harley, but I will do it.
I don't think my kids will have a step father anytime soon... the OM is a loser and would never make a father. More realistically... I will go through a nasty custody battle and find my kids the best step mom I can and demonstrate a healthy relationship to them from all I have learned. I am willing to live an integrated lifestyle with a 50/50 partner in life and I fully agree to all Dr Harley's principles. My wife does not subscribe to this, but I still hope that she will come around before the Divorce is final. Ii would like to give my kids the gift of their biological mom if at all possible.
I am still open to any suggestions... when I see my WW, what should I say? When she asks to take her next trip to the state of the OM, what should I say? (obviously, I will say NFW... but what else?) When I ask her on a date and she says no, I don't have time... what should I say? etc.. Most people around you probably have zero practical experience with infidelity. My mother and my older brother both work professionally in mental health and had all sorts of theories (like BPD, which is often blamed for wayward behavior) of why my ex-wife was wayward. All I would say is nobody had a handle on the situation as well as the people on this forum. The people around you probably mean well but they have no idea what they are talking about. Whatever you send to Dr. Harley doesn't need to be super elaborate or detailed. Just the basics of your situation. You will be very surprised how well he can read between the lines on stuff, just speaking from experience. He's been doing this for a very long time.
Happily remarried to wonderful woman who I found using the guidelines in "Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders" 2 baby boys, working on #3 and couldn't ask for anything more. When my ex's affair happened: BH 28, Ex-WW:29 Married: 7 years Together: 8 years D-day: 10/5/2014 D filed: 1/22/2015 D Final: 6/4/2015 My story
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I forgot to mention a couple things...
#1 she also asked for $15K that she owes her mom. I said fine.. give me a list of what you owe her for and we will start from there. She said "why, you don't trust me?" I said, if I asked for $15K would you not ask me what it is for?
#2 Regarding the trip to the other state... if it is really to only see family and not the OM then she won't mind if I come right? Why would I not come along? The other issue is that we really don't have the money for such a trip right now. I said, why don't we stay at home and work on our marriage and just have some family time?
Do you think this affair is really still going on? Is it possible that this is WW Fog this long after it started? 1 year? The guy is such a loser that I just struggle to believe that she could be in a Fog over him.
I said, you want all this money, and so much from me... all I asked you for was a date? It's only a couple hours of your time. Would you rather spend 8 hours in court or a couple hours with me that costs you nothing. Why would she be so illogical about that?
What is she testing me for? It seems like she wants me to prove how much I love her and nothing is enough. She kept saying prove it... actions not words. I'm a smooth talker but no action. She wants to see money. Just reread your whole story to catch up. I think your wife is still pretty fogged because she is gaslighting you about the affair and none of the money stuff makes any sense, it is highly manipulative. Waywards tend to have problems with finances, and there are so many stories I've seen here (my own included) where the wayward tries to use the betrayed spouse like an ATM. Her affair could be very alive and well and simply underground. I agree with what MelodyLane said way back at the beginning of this. I think you need to plan to separate since you took her back in with no conditions. You can ask for her to agree to EPs all you want but there is no teeth to anything you say right now since she knows she can leave for 6 months with no explanation and then return to an open door. Would you expect her just to take you back in if you had ditched her and the kids for 6 months on a whim? She has no seat at the table on the terms of your divorce filing, and there is no earthly reason to give her that. She knows she is in trouble there (probably because she can't afford a lawyer) and that is why she is hassling you about settling out of court. She obviously came back to you for money. I think that is your leverage with her to get her to agree with EPs, and as long as she is in your house, you have no leverage. If you still want to try and save this, you can explain that you are willing to build a loving and romantic marriage with her, but don't be a doormat. What she is doing to you right now could go on for years. I wouldn't expect anything reasonable from her and not because of BPD, but because she needs a reality check, like coming home to changed locks on the doors.
Last edited by axslinger85; 10/30/15 07:00 PM.
Happily remarried to wonderful woman who I found using the guidelines in "Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders" 2 baby boys, working on #3 and couldn't ask for anything more. When my ex's affair happened: BH 28, Ex-WW:29 Married: 7 years Together: 8 years D-day: 10/5/2014 D filed: 1/22/2015 D Final: 6/4/2015 My story
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How can we figure out if this affair is still going on? It sounds like it needs to stop if things are going to get better. I already exposed. She has her phone hidden. I am with her most of the time when I am not at work or sleeping. I have VOR's running all the time (to protect myself from abuse charges)..
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I it possible that I am really seeing withdrawal symptoms right now? If it is withdrawal... eventually,it will go away.
She slept in a bed with the kids for about 3 weeks when she came back. She has been using them to fill her emotional void it seems. Their behavior has gotten horrible as a result.
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I read alot of this thread.. I am really confused if my wife has BPD or this is affair related... the most extreme irrational behaviors occurred after the affair, but there was alot of difficulty with POJA before the affair. One similar example that hit home.. she took the kids for a week.. I gave her a bag of medicine, instructions, and a printout from the doctor on everything that was going on and she did not give the kids their medicine once. This is a few months after one child was hospitalized and could have been lost Some behaviors though have been going on for years (before the affair).. especially, the inability to follow a POJA. When we were first married, she was extremely loving and we talked to each other about everything. At some point, after having children (and staying at home) she could no longer follow any POJA and IB became unstoppable. And if staying at home caused too much dependency, who was stopping her from getting a job? I really need to see if this affair is still going on... if we take that off the table, it should help us understand what is going on. I will keep reading on PD's... it's an interesting debate. I wonder how someone could be so uncaring, manipulative, and purely evil if it is not a PD. BPD offers and explanation as why someone can be so loving and easy to be with for such a long time, then the begin to turn on you.
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What you really need to do is email mbradio@marriagebuilders.com, and include your phone number so Joyce can call you back and schedule you for the radio show. You will get the most help from going on the radio show. I know because I and my wife have been on twice and both times were immensely beneficial. Besides, it provides an opportunity for all of us to learn from Dr. Harley's advice to you.
me-65
wife-61
married for 40 years
DS - 38, autistic, lives at home
DD - 37, married and on her own
DS - 32, still living with us
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I have emailed Dr. H and am awaiting the response. I am looking for advice on how to handle the money situation and I will explain how I have handled it this week. The reason I ask is that being overly emotional about the budget discussions had been an issue with my WW even before the affair. She has even said that she feels that I don�t care about her and don�t want to be with her long term because of the way we handle the budget. In my view, I only ask that we follow the POJA. She has always felt that she should have complete control over my income.
Yesterday, she asked for specific amounts of money for food, gas, travel, clothing, and money for her mom. I said that she could have the $ for groceries and gas. We should travel together and spend the travel $ together so she could not have that money... I would pay for the travel while we are together. For clothing, I again requested that we shop together. She argued, so I said that I would hold half the clothing budget and she could hold the other half. For her mom, I again asked for a detailed list of expenses. She just said legal costs, and then got quiet. I believe her mom is paying for her apartment which is right near where the OM lives. Her mom was dumb enough to cosign for that so in my view, she can pay for it. I already gave my wife $20K for living and legal fees.. .so I think I should hold firm and give her nothing.
I really want to know... am I being too controlling with my paycheck? When one spouse works and the other doesn�t am I really a controlling monster for not just signing my entire paycheck over to her? What would be reasonable? Why does she resent me so much for making the money and wanting to budget, pay bills together, and follow the POJA which is what I have been wanting to do for years. She cries almost every time we have a budget discussion.
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You need to man up and NOT give a wayward money. You know she is using it for her affair and against you. Why would you allow that to happen?
You are afraid of her (as all of us were at some point, including me).
Stop being afraid, stop trying to mind read her, she is in the FOG.
No one will fault you for trying to control your own financial destiny.
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You need to man up and NOT give a wayward money. You know she is using it for her affair and against you. Why would you allow that to happen?
You are afraid of her (as all of us were at some point, including me).
Stop being afraid, stop trying to mind read her, she is in the FOG.
No one will fault you for trying to control your own financial destiny. That is where I draw the line. I will not fund her affair. I am not paying for her cell phone (I cancelled it... she only has her cheater phone now). I will not pay for her to travel by herself. I will not pay for going out to eat by herself... we do all that together. All the money is in a joint account so I see every transaction and asked her to keep receipts. She has enough for food, gas, and some clothes. That is it. All else being equal though.. am I too "controlling"? I also told her that she is free to work all she wants... I will share all household chores, childcare, anything that she wants/ needs. I feel like I married a woman 8 years ago who worked three jobs... we had children, and now she is a spoiled brat who is entitled to everything; she is entitled because I am just a worthless POS subhuman monster.
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