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When I reached the point in my marriage that your wife is at, the reason I needed to talk about those things was to make sure my exH UNDERSTOOD what his behavior did to me, and how deeply it hurt me so he would be able to protect me from this kind of behavior in the future.
(He was not interested in MB; it is not MB advice to cooperate with continuously dredging this stuff up, but he refused to follow MB, refused to read an MB book and continued anger outbursting at me. My only hope was to get him to understand.) That is a recipe for disaster. MB says not to try repeatedly to make your spouse understand because you will drive yourself nuts. The fact that once in awhile a person might get lucky this way does not mean it's a good idea. You had another hope: MB would recommend protecting yourself from a spouse who won't do MB. That's a much safer and less riskier approach, so it comes with more hope built-in. My xH seemed to be completely oblivious to the pain he was causing me. Yes it was a recipe for disaster - and I knew it was - but by then I was ready for disaster, WANTED disaster, so I didn't care. You will remember that I was one of the tougher nuts to crack on getting me to leave my husband from his abuse. In retrospect I was able to reconcile what I needed to do (follow MB advice!) with my faith and my new understanding of the whole counsel of God's word on the subject, not just my understanding of a few limited texts. While going through this, I didn't have that understanding yet. I am NOT advocating or recommending whatsoever that anyone do this; I'm just telling Jim WHY his wife is doing it, and where she is. And Jim, heed Marko's fair warnings, it will lead to disaster so you need to make sure she believes that you get her pain the very next time she brings it up, so she can let it go and stop bringing it up. Once you show a very caring empathy so she can feel safe in that you understand, then every time she goes there afterwards, you can make the statements that Didn't Quit is formulating for you. Be careful that when you make them they are not in a dismissive tone, but a sincerely caring tone. For your marriage to recover, she has to move on from the place she's in right now.
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By the way, Jim, if you commit even a single same-old, same-old lovebuster in these next critical few weeks, she will lose complete faith in all of your changes.
Please be on high alert. If necessary, thank her for the suggestion or criticism and ask her for some time to think about it, and bring it here and you will get lots of help.
My xH made ALL KINDS of promises which I would hang on until I could see he had gone back to same-old, same-old. Then I was even more skeptical of his promise next time.
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By the way, Jim, if you commit even a single same-old, same-old love buster in these next critical few weeks, she will lose complete faith in all of your changes. Jim, even though this may have been true in the past, I don't want you to get discouraged when you make a mistake. Remember that your marriage is a wreck for 2 reasons: 1. Love Busters (primarily behaving as if she didn't exist) 2. You didn't meet her emotional needs.It takes lots of deposits to offset love busters. 0 Deposits = Always in the RED. In that status, any love buster becomes her last straw. So how can she heal from your love busters? You CAN'T replace what you broke. We can't do it over. But you can show JUST COMPENSATION. You do that by eliminating love busters and habitually making deposits. Jim, your wife is probably not going to quit, even though she threatens. She has stuck around this long. If you start meeting her needs, then she will notice. She might balk (AO) when you try, and she will balk (AO) when you make a mistake. But I think that she will see changes. To be clear, I am not saying to ignore love busters. I am taking into account that you have been eliminating them over the last year or so. All is not lost, just because you miss something. This is a learning process, and there is a LONG way to go here. You BOTH will love bust and make changes as you adjust to each others' sensitivities. When your wife gets upset, project an appreciation that she let you know, and a WILLINGNESS to protect her in the future. So Jim....please stay on track with your daily schedule. The goal is that eventually, at 10, 12 and 3 every day, you won't need the alarm. It will become natural to take a break, send some love to your wife, and then go back to work.
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My wife is extremely needful to discuss my past indiscretions in order to heal from them. I'm not sure how to do this and what she needs/expects. Maybe you can help me to better understand what she means. I'm sorry to put this on you but I really do appreciate the efforts that the moderators put forth on this forum. I just hope that you all can help me and my wife. We are both running out of steam...DJ
-She could be trying to punish you. (Dr.Harley told you this in response to your email.)
-She doesn't hear you defining the actual problem and suggesting a plan to solve it.
-She does not realize that it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to imagine how she would feel in any given situation.
-She is in the habit of discussing crisis as a last resort to get your attention. Habit.
Please answer. When she complains,
1)Do you acknowledged the specific love buster that occurred?
2)Do you agree to a plan to avoid this in the future?
3)Do you express concern that you won�t recognize those situations in the future?
4)Are you debating her recollection of the facts?
5)Do or make statements that give the impression that she is off base or crazy?
6)Do you say "But I don't understand... why?"
7)What happens just before she says, "I'M DONE!"?
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o I took a new job (5 yrs ago) and pretty much made the decision on my own without discussing with her all of the details and deciding together. I even promised to talk with her in great detail before I took the job and never did. I accepted the job via email to my future boss and I copied my wife on the email very proud of myself for involving her. What a mistake! What a jerk!
OH: You didn�t follow through on your promise to discuss it with her.
POJA: You didn�t see gathering her opinion as a necessary part of the process. You didn�t consider the fact that everything you do affects her in a real way. You dictated her future.o Our aged dog was very sick one evening. We thought that she was going to die that night. My wife was also sick with a bad cold. Rather than stay with/help my wife, I slept in the garage in my car so that I could help our dog. I thought that she was going to die. It felt like the right thing to do at the time but it wasn't.
The only way to avoid doing this in the future is to ALWAYS ask your wife for her feelings before moving forward. Wife, I know you aren�t feeling well. How would you feel about me taking care of the dog tonight? (Wife says, I can�t believe you would consider that when I had a cold.( which is a DJ�) That is why I am here, wife. You are most important.
o My wife and I went to IKEA and had a very nice day being together. As we were in line to check out, my wife pushed the cart forward and accidentally bumped a pallet full of champagne glasses. About 5 of them fell on the floor and shattered, glass everywhere. We were both embarrassed. The IKEA personnel told us to step away from the glass (I was on the ground picking up shards to help clean up the mess). My wife was very embarrassed and I did nothing to ease the situation like putting my arm around her and telling her that it was okay. Nope, I leaned over to her and said "...how embarrassing is this!". Then I kind of backed away from her and basically left her on her own. Oh boy!
I explained it to my husband this way: Here we were in the middle of the battlefield, and I felt like instead of shielding me, you ran for cover. Those are most of the big things. Now, the reason that I tell you about these is that my wife has insisted that we talk through each of these experiences and clear the air. So, we've definitely talked about the events but we haven't had any healing at all. My wife is as hurt now as she was when they occurred; even more so now because I can't seem to "talk" the way that my wife is envisioning.
I am struggling as to how to "talk" about these events so that we can break down the wall that is between us.
Wife: You realize that you did �.thing to me. How could you??
Jim: Thanks for telling me. So what I did was (fill in the lovebuster .) Is that correct?
Wife: Well, yes.
Jim: I am sorry. What would you have preferred I do in that situation?
Wife: I would have preferred you to �..
Jim: I will try to do that next time. Can I write this down to help me remember?
Wife: Okay.
Jim: I want to be thoughtful of you. (Hug)...How would you feel about going for a walk with me? (to move forward)
I know that Dr. H suggests to talk of difficult events in great detail and then don't ever talk of them again but move on. I know that he speaks of this as it relates to an affair but I'm not sure if he means this with any kind of difficult event. That said, my wife needs to talk through these things until we can heal but we haven't been able to talk in a way that heals anything.
Him: I feel like I�ve addressed this complaint. When you keep talking about this, it really feels like you are trying to rub my nose in it. Is that what want?
Me: No honey, not at all. I'm Sorry, I�ll move forward. Hopefully, that gives you some good understanding of what we're dealing with at this point. We have been in this mode now for at least 5 years. I have not kissed my wife for at least 3 years now. The only physical contact that we have is holding hands (even that has stopped recently). This is your choice to not be affectionate with your wife. I understand that it may be a natural outcropping of the tension between you. However, I wouldn�t assume that she doesn�t want affection. Did you stop kissing her because YOU are angry with her?
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I can't say that we've really ever talked through any of these things until she is healed of the hurt. 1) Learn what love busters you are doing and stop doing them. You are working on this right now and have been for the last year. Remember to define the love buster. Agree to a plan for what she would prefer you do next time, and write it down.
2) Focus on 4 main emotional needs; affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment You are doing this by implementing a daily plan for affection and conversation: Affection when you leave the house, affectionate messages and intimate conversation at 10, 12, 3, and affection upon returning home.
3) Plan at least 15 hours/week to be together to focus on meeting those needs . Fine tuning this will be your next focus. For now, please continue to come up with date ideas which can meet the needs listed in #2, and incorporate the invitations into your daily communications.
4) Understand what your spouse�s emotional needs are. She probably won�t share this right now, but you might be able to remember. Hopefully you gain the traction you are desiring, and you will feel comfortable sharing this program with her.
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Please answer.
When she complains,
1)Do you acknowledged the specific love buster that occurred?
Response: I do acknowledge it now. I argued for many years and dismissed her feelings as "silly". I do not do that now. I realize how serious these things are and I acknowledge what I did.
2)Do you agree to a plan to avoid this in the future?
Response: I have acknowledged that what I have done is wrong and have agreed to not do this again. We have never really talked things through to the point of identifying the root of the problem (i.e. selfishness, dishonesty, independent behavior, etc.). I always tend to focus on what I did rather than why I did...My plan to avoid certain behaviors in the future have not been discussed with my wife and agreed to jointly. I've just gone off and planned and planned and planned but never acted.
3)Do you express concern that you won�t recognize those situations in the future?
Response: I have expressed this concern on a number of occasions because I've realized that I never had a clue during our entire married life that what I was doing was causing so much damage. My wife expressed concerns continuously so she really invested herself in our marriage but I did not.
4)Are you debating her recollection of the facts?
Response: I haven't done this for probably 6 months now. I used to argue continually with her about the "facts". I realized that arguing was making things even worse and I was typically just justifying my behavior instead of acknowledging the truth.
5)Do or make statements that give the impression that she is off base or crazy?
Response: No, never.
6)Do you say "But I don't understand... why?"
Response: Yes, I say that a lot
7)What happens just before she says, "I'M DONE!"?
Response: Well, right now, if I even bring up the fact that I want to talk about something related to our marriage, she instantly turns me off and says "...it doesn't matter, too little, too late". If I persist, sometimes she will just get angrier and storm off. Other times, we will actually talk for awhile and it almost seems like she has a glimmer of hope but then she stuffs that glimmer back down inside. I think that she is just so afraid to let me in again because I have let her down so often for so many years.
I'm 64 yrs old; married to my wife for almost 40 yrs. Started having marriage troubles 10 years ago. I have lived independently for all of these years. 10 yrs ago wife announced she did not love me anymore. Wife has had angry outbursts our whole married life. I now understand that this is a symptom of my independent behavior. No infidelity from either of us. Active members of our church. 4 children, 1 son, 3 daughters. All out of the house now. Adjusting to the empty nest
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[quote=DidntQuit]
Did you stop kissing her because YOU are angry with her?
Response: No, I stopped because I felt like I was being rejected and I've not been comfortable just doing what I want to do if she doesn't want to do it. I do kiss her on the head a lot. It feels to me like she doesn't want my affection.
I'm 64 yrs old; married to my wife for almost 40 yrs. Started having marriage troubles 10 years ago. I have lived independently for all of these years. 10 yrs ago wife announced she did not love me anymore. Wife has had angry outbursts our whole married life. I now understand that this is a symptom of my independent behavior. No infidelity from either of us. Active members of our church. 4 children, 1 son, 3 daughters. All out of the house now. Adjusting to the empty nest
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We had a fairly lengthy discussion tonight after I got home from work. It seems to me that I have grown to the point where I can acknowledge that I've done wrong. I can see and understand what I've done wrong.
When I say that my wife wants to continually talk about what I've done, its not that she wants me to re-hash what I've done; its more that she wants to talk about why I did what I did and how that impacted her. I think that is quite a bit different from just re-hashing events. It seems to me that this is a perfectly reasonable thing to discuss. Its basically identifying love busters and seeking to understand what I do/did.
My wife is very bitter and hurt and its pretty hard to start a conversation about anything related to staying together and continuing to work on our marriage. She is so withdrawn now and doesn't want me to fulfill any of her needs. Its amazing to me how clearly I see things now. I really wish that I had taken this seriously much sooner than now.
I understand now how I need to just keep marching forward and not give in to my instincts to run. I think that is what has hurt us more than even the things that I did over the years. My constant starting/stopping has done nothing but taken my wife's love bank into the red. I believe that my lack of consistency has been the biggest love buster that I have been doing.
DQ, thank you so much for helping me to understand and see things clearly. I want to see this through and keep plugging away at things. I just pray that I can work to build something that we've never had together.
This is so hard! I feel so helpless and alone at times so I am truly grateful for all of you that are trying to help folks like me work through this difficult time.
I'm 64 yrs old; married to my wife for almost 40 yrs. Started having marriage troubles 10 years ago. I have lived independently for all of these years. 10 yrs ago wife announced she did not love me anymore. Wife has had angry outbursts our whole married life. I now understand that this is a symptom of my independent behavior. No infidelity from either of us. Active members of our church. 4 children, 1 son, 3 daughters. All out of the house now. Adjusting to the empty nest
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If she has not filed for divorce or moved out, there is hope. Continue to work the program. Continue to invite her on fun dates. Avoid relationship talk, especially on dates. Glimmers are good. They are a sign some love bank deposits are getting through.
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If she has not filed for divorce or moved out, there is hope. Continue to work the program. Continue to invite her on fun dates. Avoid relationship talk, especially on dates. Glimmers are good. They are a sign some love bank deposits are getting through. Yes. Fun. Relationship talk only to address a complaint. Address it and move on to a good topic. She needs to associate you with positivity and not pain. Another reason why your messages throughout the day should be positive and admiring.
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Hey Jim-
Did you listen to the radio show yesterday?
If not, please listen to the last 10 mins. Starting at the 50 minute mark.
It goes away in a little while.
Last edited by DidntQuit; 03/02/16 12:03 PM. Reason: time correction
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I wasn't able to hear the show today. By the time I read your post DQ, it was too late..DJ
I'm 64 yrs old; married to my wife for almost 40 yrs. Started having marriage troubles 10 years ago. I have lived independently for all of these years. 10 yrs ago wife announced she did not love me anymore. Wife has had angry outbursts our whole married life. I now understand that this is a symptom of my independent behavior. No infidelity from either of us. Active members of our church. 4 children, 1 son, 3 daughters. All out of the house now. Adjusting to the empty nest
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No problem, Jim.
That's why we like to subscribe to the archives. It allows us to hear what we miss and search by topic.
Food for thought:
It's not a good idea to keep asking your wife about her marital plans. She may perceive it to be controlling. Just keep filling her love bank and watch for her to start opening up to your efforts.
Would you be willing to report often to reassure me that you aren't skipping? We are all rooting for you to achieve consistency this time.
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Yes, I'm glad to be held accountable. We spent some time talking tonight (some real UA). We planned some UA time for tomorrow night. First time that my wife was willing to even consider it after about 2 weeks or so. I have been sending her messages throughout the day (specifically at my alarm times). I've also been writing her handwritten notes when I leave for work in the morning. I haven't been able to figure out any affection in the mornings because I have an hour commute and leave typically before she wakes up. Since she's in menopause, she has a real hard time sleeping now and mornings seem to be her best sleep time so I really steer clear of waking her up in the morning to say goodbye.
I was able to give her a hug and kiss (top of her head) tonight before she went to bed and there was no revulsion (is that a word?).
Our talk tonight really focused a lot on positive things; memories from our early days of marriage. We laughed on a few occasions and there were some good positive feelings. I think that a few love bank deposits were made tonight; just a few. I think that my being consistent with the daily messages as well as my not running away from a difficult discussion has been helpful. I will continue to be consistent and appreciate any accountability that any of you can offer me.
Last edited by dividejim; 03/02/16 11:45 PM.
I'm 64 yrs old; married to my wife for almost 40 yrs. Started having marriage troubles 10 years ago. I have lived independently for all of these years. 10 yrs ago wife announced she did not love me anymore. Wife has had angry outbursts our whole married life. I now understand that this is a symptom of my independent behavior. No infidelity from either of us. Active members of our church. 4 children, 1 son, 3 daughters. All out of the house now. Adjusting to the empty nest
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Yes, I'm glad to be held accountable. We spent some time talking tonight (some real UA). We planned some UA time for tomorrow night. First time that my wife was willing to even consider it after about 2 weeks or so. I have been sending her messages throughout the day (specifically at my alarm times). I've also been writing her handwritten notes when I leave for work in the morning. I haven't been able to figure out any affection in the mornings because I have an hour commute and leave typically before she wakes up. Since she's in menopause, she has a real hard time sleeping now and mornings seem to be her best sleep time so I really steer clear of waking her up in the morning to say goodbye.
I was able to give her a hug and kiss (top of her head) tonight before she went to bed and there was no revulsion (is that a word?).
Our talk tonight really focused a lot on positive things; memories from our early days of marriage. We laughed on a few occasions and there were some good positive feelings. I think that a few love bank deposits were made tonight; just a few. I think that my being consistent with the daily messages as well as my not running away from a difficult discussion has been helpful. I will continue to be consistent and appreciate any accountability that any of you can offer me. Good job on leaving notes instead of skipping the morning, and so glad that you are sticking with the schedule. Great update!  I hope you can find some time during your daily commute to listen to the radio show.
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Tonight we shopped for groceries and had fairly pleasant evening. We got home late and got ready for bed. I suggested that we spend an hour or so talking about some of our issues tomorrow night and then we could go out on a date. I was hoping for some UA time tomorrow night. My wife told me that our issues are too big and that I am a constant reminder to her of what I have done to her over all of these years. She went to bed annoyed.
I'm continuing to press on with the things that we have discussed...DJ
I'm 64 yrs old; married to my wife for almost 40 yrs. Started having marriage troubles 10 years ago. I have lived independently for all of these years. 10 yrs ago wife announced she did not love me anymore. Wife has had angry outbursts our whole married life. I now understand that this is a symptom of my independent behavior. No infidelity from either of us. Active members of our church. 4 children, 1 son, 3 daughters. All out of the house now. Adjusting to the empty nest
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I suggested that we spend an hour or so talking about some of our issues tomorrow nightand then we could go out on a date.� Why do you feel hard pressed to talk about "issues"?
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I believed we asked you to avoid relationship talk. You should not bring any "define the relationship" talk for a month. Let her love bank build up.
UA time is FUN. Bringing up DTR at the end of the date spoils everything. If you have an actual complaint, talk about it at a different time.
Are y'all vacationing in the next few months? Start trying to plan a fun trip with her.
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Remember, you are trying to leave the past in the past. So stop bringing it up.
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