The reason you have this mother/child relationship with your husband is because of his independent behavior. There is no equality here and won't be until you change your reaction to his childish behavior. He goes off like a teenage boy, and you react. When you do that, he reacts like a boy.

Instead of fussing at him, I would tell him that your marriage won't work unless he follows extraordinary precautions and stops going off doing his own thing. The alternative is to have a completely integrated leisure lifestyle where you do everything outside of work together. I don't believe he will ever do that. And if he won't do that, then the answer is to separate because his independent lifestyle will lead to MORE affairs.

Surely, you are smart enough to see he is not serious about recovering your marriage.

What you are saying is partly true. But this is what I really believe it is...

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget? Letter #2

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042b_qa.html

In this case I'm the husband and he's the wife.

He's doing all of this and feeling the way he feels because of my actions in the past. I've been demanding and had angry outbursts throughout our entire marriage, and been judgemental. I'm not saying he didn't have other choices but this is why he did what he did, and why he wanted to move out in the first place.

If I tell him to stop going off and doing his own thing, he views it that I'm trying to control him.

Read this Please Explain Gaslighting

Interesting. I've never heard this term before. Passive aggressive, I've heard of that and in recent past have thought he was like that.

WOW I'll have to read more on that.

So let him know if he doesn't stop and doesn't commit to recovery of your marriage that it is time to separate. He can go off and do his own thing living someplace else. This is NOT a marriage at all cost program and your husband is NOT serious in any fashion.

Instead of reading, have a discussion with him TODAY and tell him he has to make radical changes in his lifestyle for this work. That starts with eliminating his single lifestyle and creating a integrated happy marriage.

newtopia, are you going to do this^^^^?

ADs= Anti-depressants. They can temporarily help you stay calm so you think and act rationally.

I don't know at the moment.

He has since posted on his fb "And... Here.... We.... Go...." feeling frustrated, and then a few hours later "Not the responses I was expecting..." feeling satisfied. He also texted me in all caps..

"You told my bosses daughter in law are you kidding me? I'm trying to keep a level head right now."

Now mind you, this is the 22 year old woman he works with every day. OF COURSE I TOLD HER!

We have a therapy appt tomorrow evening that we both thought about cancelling. But since finding out that the guy knows about MB I'm keeping the appt. I guess he'll have to decide on his own to come or not.

What does serious look like to you guys? Yes I guess I'm so clouded at being gaslighted I don't know what is up or down anymore. I talked to a mutual female friend this morning who agreed with everything I thought that he is in the wrong, there's no excuses. and she KNOWS me. She knows how I can be and that it doesn't matter that I don't deserve this. Everyone has choices.

Here's what I found.. I don't feel this way at all. I don't apologize, I dont withhold information, I dont feel depressed.

#1, sure, #2 yes. I've been highly sensitive since I was born.

Here are the signs of gaslighting:
1. You are constantly second-guessing yourself
2. You ask yourself, "Am I too sensitive?" a dozen times a day.
3. You often feel confused and even crazy at work.
4. You're always apologizing to your mother, father, boyfriend,, boss.
5. You can't understand why, with so many apparently good things in your life, you aren't happier.
6. You frequently make excuses for your partner's behavior to friends and family.
7. You find yourself withholding information from friends and family so you don't have to explain or make excuses.
8. You know something is terribly wrong, but you can never quite express what it is, even to yourself.
9. You start lying to avoid the put downs and reality twists.
10. You have trouble making simple decisions.
11. You have the sense that you used to be a very different person - more confident, more fun-loving, more relaxed.
12. You feel hopeless and joyless.
13. You feel as though you can't do anything right.
14. You wonder if you are a "good enough" girlfriend/ wife/employee/ friend; daughter.
15. You find yourself withholding information from friends and family so you don't have to explain or make excuses.

And you have choices too.

You can wring your hands and continue to complain daily about his IB and non-compliance with EPs...with the nice added benefit where he uses MB to punish and abuse you vs its intent, which is to build a integrated happy marriage.

Or you can make a choice to separate until he is willing to get on board with recovery. And raise the bar high and not accept these crumbs he is tossing at you.

This is the time to do it. The longer you let this go on, the less chance you have at a recovered marriage.

I hear you. Honestly I don't feel strong enough to listen to him tell me that he isn't doing anything wrong and I feel I can't list them all out.


Here's the anxiety again. Let me think about this and list it out.

We've already told you.

Remorseful attitude
Implementation of EPs
Removal of love busters like IB

This is not recovery. This is dragging a kicking and crying wayward up the hill while he fights you every step of the way.

Welcome to your future unless you let him know (via separation) that you are not going to settle for this.

It's very simple. A BW who doesn't want to separate makes it complicated. We have seen this before.

And your WH KNOWS this about you.

He knows that you don't want to separate and that if he can get you into an argument you just give up and let him do whatever he wants.

You don't need to list everything out and play these games with him. You can write down what MelodyLane posted (very simple) and then end the conversation.

I love this quote from Dr Harley. It was written in response to a question from a BW whose H was ignoring her request not to attend co-ed AA meetings.


Welcome to your future.

I don't think your WH has any interest in recovery, I am sorry to tell you. Not even a little bit.

You are going to be dragging him uphill kicking and screaming the entire way for the rest of your M.

This may be how he truly feels or it may be a tactic that gets you to give in.

You have to let him know that his actions hurt you, create stress for you, make life miserable for you. How well do you do that?

Do you tell him he can't go out alone (controlling) or do you tell him how his IB makes you feel (inviting him to see your pain)?

Read what was just posted about the POJA. You cannot go through life with a partner that is willing to gain at your expense. That is no way to live your life. You are not controlling him, you are protecting yourself from the continuing harmful things he does to you.

Is he totally unwilling to POJA or does he simply not know how to negotiate? If he won't negotiate with you Win/Win(s) then you have a choice to make. If he doesn't know how I'd suggest you two get a coach to learn how.

And you seriously just took that?
BWs who just roll over and accept crumbs from a disgruntled WH don't make it.

POJA he hasn't done in full, he left to go bowling yesterday without even telling me(or discussing with me)

he actually agreed to 30 days of this and "reevlauate" then.

he has agreed to never talk to the 2 woman again, he hasn't and he blocked all communication from them.

I have looked at his phone, texts, email, fb. His group me chat with his male friends. I have access to all.

Account for time 24/7. he just told me last night if that is going to be forever he's not going to do it. he agreed and then failed to tell me of two places he went yesterday. he initially agreed and then told me after the near future he wants to reevaluate this too.

Account for $. I have access to all bank accounts/credit cards.

Spend as much time together as possible, we have. we were both off work Thurs-Sunday and have spent all of our time together. (I sent this on Thursday evening after bowling, so he did go bowling)

His response to this was.. I am open to this. However, I will not go out of my way to wake you up at 4am so we can spend time together. There are limits to what I'm willing to do here. I we need to discuss this then we can." In him meaning that he needs less sleep than I do. Typically he will only sleep 6 hours and I need more. So at times he'll be awake for 2 hours more than I am.

no overnight separation, he agreed. But he said this can't be permanent. He said that if I leave him then he still needs a job, so in a sense putting that above me?

no friendships with women, he agreed

no bars, he agreed.

total honestly. I doubt this has happened but I have zero way to prove anything and I'm not even sure if he has lied about anything or with held the truth on anything.
ok I take it back, he didn't tell me about going to the grocery store, he didn't tell me about going bowling,

and acutally on the last three his reponse was "Fine"

Then he listed his requirements...

MY REQUIREMENTS!

1. You will need to make time for me when I request it.

2. You will NEVER put our business out to the masses again. There is no wiggle room on this. It is not driven by what I do.

3. Weekly updates on your feelings as they pertain to my honesty and openness. I need you to tell me if you feel I'm being honest weekly and subjects, if any, that you feel it's lacking.

4. I'm open to hearing your feelings, thoughts, and concerns about the 123 and XYZ(omiting names) issue through April 8th. (2 weeks) After that I am DONE listening to it. I will not have this continuously thrown in my face. We have to move on.

yes he did just call what he did an "issue"


I'm scared he will never get serious. "crying"

HE'S NOT SERIOUS!!

Kick his butt out the door!