To me, body language is important when having this type of conversation, so I would wait until he is home. Plus, that gives you some more time to snoop.

Wow FL I just read your story and I'm so sorry. Hope you're doing ok and find you're better off.

Thank you, Kat!

I said this to him over the phone last night. He immediately agreed about the no overnights, but asked how to handle when schedules conflict with other son's sports games. I suggested we talk about whether travel sports are right for our family, maybe they are not. He disagreed. Then he said that we don't go together for my sake, because I'm the one who has a hard time with late bedtimes and need to get my sleep. He said he's been doing it for my sake. I reminded him of the last two long trips we did do and how he told me my being there makes everything hard. I reminded him about reaching out and warmly touching and smiling at the mom in front of me, after expressing irritation with me when I said we should think about getting dinner. He agreed that I had a right to be upset but assured me that I have nothing to worry about, and we can find a way to all go together from now on.

He said he thought we were doing better, spending more time together. This week, we spent maybe 15 min having coffee together in the mornings (while on an iPhone) and maybe 15 min talking before I went to bed. And that was it. And to him he thought this was making an effort, for our M. He did his R class with his female friends. He went to lunch w a visiting friend (guy). He left work early most days and coached until after 8pm nearly every night. I told him this wasn't enough.

He got very quiet and upset about the no more R class. He said those women are not his friends, he doesn't see them outside of class, nor does he stay in touch. He loves the class, it's his release. He said he can work out at lunchtime on his break. He doesn't understand the issue. He told me I was crazy, that I was getting upset and he couldn't talk to me. Gas lighting, like you all predicted. That's why I wanted to do it over the phone.

I calmly replied that I'm fine, not worked up at all. I had written out what I needed to say, so I wouldn't get emotional. He said we can talk about it when he gets home, that I'm in a "mood" and pissed, and he gets that, but I have nothing to worry about if he goes to a class he loves and it happens to be mostly women.

If anyone can help me with the last point, I'd appreciate it. He did say that it can't be all his way, he knows that and he's not saying that. He just doesn't understand why it's a problem to workout in a class with mostly women, then leave to go back to work. He told me he rarely even talks to anyone in the class and when he does, it's to be polite.

I've been around town with him at our children's sports games and he's known women I didn't know by name, talked. He always introduces me, but it's still weird. But he doesn't see the issue. I know 100% if I went to a class to workout and it was mostly men, he'd have no problem with this. So how to get through?

It doesn't matter if he understands why it bothers you. He doesn't have to understand why it bothers you. The question is, SINCE it bothers you, will he stop?

I wouldn't waste anytime trying to explain why it bothers you. I would just state to him that you're no longer willing to live this way, and stand by that.

This is classic gaslighting. Notice how you're all of the sudden the problem.

Don't suggest. Tell. You're no longer willing to live this way.

I wouldn't waste any time talking about that. Just tell him you won't accept it.

Don't discuss right and wrong.

Don't have long drawn out discussions with him, either. That gives him time to weasel around and encourages him to think he'll be able to get you to back down.

Don't back down.

These kinds of back and forth discussions are murder. Don't have this kind of drama with him. Just tell him you won't accept this any more, like my wife suggested. Then start preparing for a separation if he doesn't agree.

It can't be "for your sake" if it's hurting you and your marriage. This is all FOR HIM. If he wanted to do something FOR YOU he would stop going, period.

I have 8 children and none of them need me to take them on overnight trips for any of their many pursuits.

Thanks Prisca and Markos. No more discussing it. This is very helpful.

So to clarify, we are still in this step right? Now I introduce MB concepts (again)? He didn't read the books the first time. I don't want to make the mistake of coming across like it's "my way or the highway," which he's already accused me of and his mother has accused me of in the past.

So yes, I will stand firm on the 3 things above I will no longer accept, but how to move forward on MB concepts? He agreed to move forward w me to have a romantic marriage, said he wants that too.


1. "The first step, as I mentioned earlier, should be to express your need clearly without demands, disrespect, or anger. Invite your husband to complete the Emotional Needs Questionnaire with you that can be copied from the Questionnaires section of the Marriage Builders� website. After you have each described your most important emotional needs, the book ,"His Needs, Her Needs," will help you learn to meet those needs for each other. The accompanying workbook, "Five Steps to Romantic Love," provides worksheets that will help you both implement a plan to turn need -- fulfilling behavior into habits.

Have you seen this?
Please Explain Gaslighting

I did not see this until now, but I know the term, yes. The thread you linked to explained it much better than I've seen previously, so thanks.

I woke up to a flood in our kitchen and water gushing from the fridge. I had to wake the neighbors (and friends) to help pull fridge out and turn off water, and dry water off wood floors. I called my H at 6am and he and our son were still sleeping in their hotel room.

He called an hour later before checking my vm and left vm not knowing the situation, then texted back that I should pull out fridge and unplug, lay down some towels.

I was upset and tried to take calming breaths. Called him back and said that this was a bigger deal than lying down towels, and I had to call and ask for help because I needed a man here to help. I did not yell but I am not sure if this was an AO or not. He agreed and said he would do whatever needs to be done to handle, he will call our homeowners for floors and have fridge replaced if needed.

He then moved on to discussing our son's games for the day.

This is how it goes. He does his IB, he listens to me get upset, he talks about the weather.

The emotion you are experiencing is Resentment Type A. The fridge disaster felt like a bigger deal than it otherwise would have BECAUSE of this resentment.

If he doesn't start following the POJA with you NOW, it's only going to get worse. You are going to get to the point that you hate him so much you won't even consider fixing your marriage.

Invite him to join you in the program, yes. But don't accept crumbs. If he doesn't read the books or refuses to follow any part of the program, then you need to be ready to separate. Set the bar high -- if he wants to keep you and keep your marriage, he's going to need to make drastic changes.

And that's a GOOD thing. Marriages get better when wives refuse to accept crumbs and start expecting their husbands to be integrated with them.

What have you done as far as snooping?

Do not try to drag him through the program. Invite him, but it's his choice whether he follows it or not. If he is not going to willingly follow through on what he needs to change, then there isn't much hope for your marriage recovering and you will need to separate.

Sometimes it takes a separation to get a husband to realize you are serious. That is what it took for markos.

Mine sure did!

I definitely understand this, and everything you've said above. I'm finding it very difficult to want to be nice to him right now. It's a relief to me that he is not here this weekend.

Still snooping, figuring out how to use the remote spyware, but since his device is likely not backed to iCloud, I need the device first before setting up. I've done the online account reviews and nothing suspicious. Reviewed cc statements, nothing. He's not protective of his device when he's home. He leaves in near me all the time when he goes into the garage or yard for something. I'm on the text loop with other moms from team and getting updates, pictures, so I'm not totally out of the loop of what's happening with team activities.

My call with Dr. H is tomorrow, so I know I'll get answers soon to this question, but I'm still not sure on exactly how to handle when he comes home tonight or even tomorrow if no one brings up R class. Likely he will not. Markos said not to talk it out (very helpful as I likely would have).

But what do I say? And do I tell him that I'd like us to do MB together but let him know if not then I don't see much hope? And do I do Plan A first if he's not interested (it seems like I've been in Plan A for a looooong time but I also know that resentment does not make me the most loving wife and I spent all last weekend ignoring him, which wasn't hard since he wasn't around)?

I want to thank you Prisca. I know you have a new baby (congrats) and making time to help me with this is very kind. I don't want to ask anyone I know for help. It's humiliating and I can't handle bad advice right now, which I know I'll get from certain family members.

In reading the other poster in the recent thread on alcohol recovery and parenting/discipline, I wanted to add that this is a common issue for us as well. My husband has said the same words, that attempting to control a child or discipline them other than simply talking, repeatedly, over and over, until it sticks, is going to cause rebellion. He will allow our 12 yr old to be incredibly disrespectful to me, but denies he allows it because he "talks to him."

Before leaving on Friday, my son yelled and screamed that there was nothing he'd like to eat in our home (we had smoothies, eggs, apples, protein bars, etc., plenty of food). He then asked my younger son (right in front of me) if he wanted to go play tackle football- on the pavement so he could pound him. My H got home right after this and I asked him to talk to our son. He just said "are you being nice?" Then that was it.

This happens everyday.

Which issue do I even start with?

You do not need to be Plan A for very long at all. For a woman, Plan A can simply be showing him that you are willing to create a great marriage with him. If he shows no interest, start making moves for a separation immediately. You should avoid all Lovebusters during this time, certainly.

In fact, start planning for a separation now so that you will be ready when the time comes. What will you do?

It is very common for husband and wives to disagree on disciplining children. Markos and I used to fight over this issue. Once you get into the program, you will learn how to negotiate this issue. It CAN be negotiated, and you both can be happy with the agreement you come to.

But, for now, you need to focus on the bigger issues of him traveling overnight, engaging in activities that you are not enthusiastic about, and his poor boundaries around women.