I actually feel I can stay in Plan A indefinitely.

The trouble is, I have tried everything I can. Approached from many angles, continue to show support, love, and compliments. Continue to invite her places, and express that I do not want to be separated for even another day. That it is silly and unnecessary... on and on, with almost no progress.

* The latest example is that just this past weekend I finally had an opportunity to confront, face to face, the current chief officer of the charity organization. A major individual whom had bashed her publically for over a year and was a large influence in having her removed from the same position which he now holds. I absolutely defended her, won the argument, and caused him to leave the event while I was congratulated by everyone around.

I told her this and the fact that he will no longer be speaking publically about either of us or bad mouthing her again in any way.
This was a major circumstance and are all actions she has wanted taken on my part for a long time, but only came back with a sentence or two and stopped replying the rest of the day.

I offered to talk about the details, yet it resulted in nearly no response.

So, what I have now is daily built up text messages, and although I have described "I don't need... I want her" , that I don't like sending a string of messages when we can just talk, and have shown some large examples of confidence, I think it might seem to appear needy, and I am afraid she is allowing that to happen to continue a thought pattern that I am lesser than her.

I was thinking that perhaps holding off for a couple weeks in the hope she starts initiating the conversation, would show I am not needy and perhaps she might realize that.

I had thought it is yet another angle to pursue, but if that is not a recommended course, I am fine continuing with what I have been doing.

Dr Harley does not recommend 'holding off' or disengaging or whatever you want to call it. He has Plan A, and then Plan B, and nothing in between.

If you are in Plan A then you would continue to try and fill lovebanks at every possible opportunity.

You don't actually know how your texts are affecting her. Even though she refrains from responding, that does not tell you how they make her feel. It is very possible that each one is making a small love bank deposit even if you do not get a response from her indicating that it is.

I will keep up with it then.

There might be an effect. This morning I reminded her of the song that makes me think of her. She doesn't realize our phones and her laptop are still synced together and I can see what sites she visits. She looked up the song shortly after I wrote the message.

Amazing, also this morning, I said I wanted to talk with her today and that I would call at a certain time (like I do most days)and was sure that when the call was not answered I would not get a response.... but she returned it shortly later.

A 25 minute call.
Just casual conversation, but she made the effort to call back.

It started with her sarcastically saying "what do you want?", with my reply as "I want to talk with my beautiful wife", and then it quickly went into regular conversation.

She did at one point, out of nowhere, and very casually said "I am not coming back", but I passed over that and the conversation continued.

I told her I would call again tonight, and she agreed.

I'm hoping someone might weigh in on this latest circumstance.

Yesterday, after arriving home from work, I decided to call her and suggest that while I am out visiting a friend, we should sit and talk afterward. After an initial "I don't think that is a good idea" reply, and a bit more talking, she agreed.

I arrived at her mothers just after nightfall, and after some initial tension on her part, we ended up sitting on the back porch and talked for about the last 45 minutes, from the over an hour that I was there.

We talked about different leisurely subjects, we laughed several times, told jokes, spoke about the kids schooling, the odd neighbors next door, her mom, physics, math... ect.

At one point the motion sensor lights went out and we were in darkness under the stars still continuing to talk.
During our conversation, in the dark, at different points in the conversation I was able to say things like... I look to the stars and thank God that he allowed me to find you, I no longer want to be separated, that I love her, that I want to wake up next to her again, and that I don't want a divorce, that I am not giving up on her despite all that has happened.

She remained silent in her replies to those statements, despite the one answer of "maybe you should", to my mention of not giving up on her... I said no f'n way am I giving up, and the conversation continued afterward, on changes of subject.

It was really nice... considering the circumstance.

That circumstance being that just after I arrived, in the driveway pulls up my oldest daughter carrying the last of my wife's furniture along with the dressers of the two other children that had been with me this whole time.

Earlier in the day she had said on the telephone that she thinks the children will just live with her and her mom now.
I said we can talk about that at some other time.

(the lawyer had already told me all I can do about it is let her have them for now, raise a scene and cause trouble, or file a petition for custody)

* I am right now going with option #1.

At one point, in the dark, I asked what she would like to talk about and she said the kids.
I again said I don't want to talk about it right now, that all I want right now is for her to be happy.
That I no longer wish to talk about division or negativity.

I invited her to festival this weekend (although I knew she had to work) and when I said "take the day off"... she said she needed the money, at which point I told her to quit and I would support her. (I have said this several times before).
I also suggested other things we could do on her next day off... and she seemed to be open to possibly doing it.

(I also confirmed a couple times that she will do as she claimed and start depositing her paychecks in our joint account again, and get rid of the separate bank account she had opened. She said she would, but I guess I will see what happens)

After about 45 mins of talking, she said she was tired (it was 10:50pm) and it was time for us to say goodnight.

She said "I am not entirely angry that you came" and I replied with the same.
She gave me a half hearted hug, and we touched foreheads.
I told her... "I love you" once more (actually it was "I f***king love you")
She poured me coffee to go, and told me to drive safe.

Is this progress?
It feels like it, but at the same time the kids have apparently moved in to her mothers, right before my eyes, and is something I had not agreed to.

I feel I should call again tonight and express how nice it was for us to spend time together, but am torn between doing so... or let last night resonate a bit longer, before trying.

Why are the kids moving if you didn't agree to it?

It seems the kids, both girls... early to mid teens have started identifying/ empathizing wit their mom. A big change and a blow to me, considering the younger one had asked me, only a month or so ago, "can we just move on without mom".

The older girl is currently cold shouldering me and refuses to talk.

Both have now been given rooms at my wife's mothers house.

All three have hinted, from time to time, that once school lets out this would likely happen. It came two days before the last day of school.

The reason my wife gives me is that our house is currently under interior repairs in preparation for selling (which it is), so they will be staying with her and her mom now.
But I know its more than that.

I was afraid it would happen, so I had previously discussed it with the lawyer I spoke to. a As I mentioned, my only choices are to let it happen, cause an argument with my wife, or file a petition for custody.


Every choice possible hurts badly, but my best choice is likely to let them stay there for now and use the time to get the house fully ready for sale. Its really all I can do.

At the same time...

Four days ago my wife and I had the night talk I spoke of,
likely the best we have had in some time.

The following day she said it was once again fine for me to visit her at work for a while (service station) which she previously said not to come anymore.

* On that night the station was staffed solely by my wife and my oldest daughter,(age 20), and I did stay for an hour or so until the end of their shift.

My wife and I had already planned to spend time together two days from now, but during the discussion that day, we agreed on adding another day in between... yesterday.

I told her I did not want us driving off in different directions anymore... she said we will talk about it another time.

We laughed and joked afterward at the end of her shift. She reminded me, before we drove off, that we will see each other again tomorrow.

But as before, yesterday came and she changed her mind. I was told she will just be going home after work to go to sleep.
That Tuesday (2 days from now) is still fine.

Today she called a couple times and returned my calls within a couple minutes. At one point I said, I no longer want to fall asleep or wake up without her another day and had to clarify my feelings.
She said "She knows and that I have, but we are a long way from that point...yet"
I said "I know that we are".

Today I stopped in at her work again. Originally to get the kids, as they were either going to be home alone or hanging out at her work for 8 hours (Both of the children refused to come with me).

I did use the same visit today to ask my wife what she would like to do, two day from now. A haircut is already involved (which she had already agreed to) and I suggested also ordering out food and watching old kung-fu movies. She said "Yes, maybe".

We also talked about the house, and I used the opportunity to once again briefly state that if we are not to stay there I would like us to find a new and better place... She quickly said "we are never living together again" and the subject changed once more, just as fast.

It is hard to know what is progress and what is not.

The talks and visits in the last few days have been "good", but I am also watching my children move out, and although my wife has assured me, more than once, that we will see each other Tuesday, she very likely could pass it by once more.

I also still continue with a few "good morning/good night" and various texts, daily, to tell her how beautiful she is and that she is the love of my life.

* Sometimes romantic, other times playful.

** On the phone, I keep the discussion on other things, while occasionally mentioning a compliment or special feeling.

When was the last time you spoke with your lawyer?

I have had one in office consultation. It was three weeks ago.

She showed today, waiting when I got home.

We spent 3 and a half hours together, side by side, watching a movie and eating dinner. She let me into her personal space, touching, smiled, let me take a few photos for my phone, said she was "not unhappy" to be there. Agreed it was nice to spend time together... and she came up with the idea to do it again tomorrow.

I was able to say, a couple times, that my love transcends what has occurred and that when she is ready we can talk about what happened. That she can trust me.
She believed me, but didn't want to talk about it.

I was even able to touch on the subjects of love making and falling asleep together.
Both of which she said she is not yet ready for, which I expected, but she listened rather than getting upset about the subjects, or saying it is never going to happen.

She grunted a few times while talking and made it know a few times when the touching was too long. But those were the only couple lows... other than leaving before I wanted it to be over.

But, 3 and a half hours is the best we have done in a long time.

Just keep plan A'ing.

We spent another three hours together again yesterday evening. Same situation... dinner/ movie/ couch. I was able to make several deposits. More expressions of love, some touching, allowed me to kiss her cheek and head at different points, and the hugs (plural) were almost full on and lasted several seconds each. I again talked, more than once, about not wanting to be separated (she sighed, but said nothing about not wanting to return). We discussed parenting our children together rather than separately, and she also agreed (so far) to help get the house ready for sale/ rent.

* there were some other various nice moments as well.


I have been wondering about the checklist.
Other than the initial exposure on my part, and us very recently spending some leisure time together, I have gotten nothing to check off the list. I casually mention these items to her (in various ways), and she listens, but as of yet has accomplished none of them.

It seems I am doing an end-around and hoping to circle back to the list at some point in the future. I believe my first struggle should be to get us away from being separated and back together in the same home. I think if I were to push the list hard at this time, it will drive her further away. I am resolved to have this list completed, but I think I should continue to mention these items casually and cautiously, rather than having them be the first items completed.

Does this sound reasonable?

It doesn't seem logical to ask her to do anything from the list if she feels that you are firmly separated and the marriage is over. Unless she goes back to the marriage, she won't do any of the things on the list.

Is it possible to go overboard on Plan A?

If given the opportunity, I would talk to her all day, non stop.
Right now I send several texts a day, tell her I love her a few times each day, wish her goodnight and good morning, and to have a good day at work.

I call, not always successfully, a few times each day.

I also mix in romantic statements within my various texts.

Most often, she reads them, and then talks about other subjects.

But she has a said, a few various times when aggressive, that she doesn't want me to send the romantic stuff.
I tell her it is because my love for her is so strong and that I want to tell her I love her, all the time.

She has at one point, said... "That's fine, but you don't need to send the other crap".

(The other "crap" is in fact really how I feel, and not a gimmick)

The times she has told me to stop I would settle down for a while and pick it up again a day or two later.

She has said stop a couple times, but as I keep going with the plan, she seems to answer the phone more often, we spent those times together recently and she has been talking longer.

I "think" she actually likes it, but doesn't want to acknowledge it. But I can't be sure.

So, I am also unsure if expressions can be overdone.


Also...
A few subjects I am wanting to talk to her about, but am not sure if it is a good idea:

- I have not mentioned the affair since shortly after she sent the OM the "goodbye/ it's over" letter, 8 weeks ago.
(which also included the words "never regret" and "I'll always treasure")

The OM's spouse believes there has been no contact, but I am contemplating asking my wife about it again to see what she has to say about maintaining no contact.

- I would also like to more often bring up the fact that I desire us to live together again, perhaps focusing on that more often than I have.
I often say that I don't want to fall asleep or wake up without her even another day, so she knows very well I do want us back living together, but I do not want the subject to drop.

- I have started to mention that I would like her to change her work schedule, or quit altogether and let me provide everything instead.

* I have told her I would like to show her life as it is intended. (Which is not cooped up in a house and simply traveling to work and back)
I send her a photo or two, and/ or a description of what is happening, each time I am out visiting friends or attending an event.

Right now we work different shifts, and hers also involves working weekends.
This makes it very difficult to spend time together, even during the times she might be open to doing so.
(I do ask her to spend time, and give ideas on what we might do... nearly every day)

Would continuing with these ideas be recommended?

It would mean risking more opportunities for her to become irritated, but I am feeling that simply talking about non important subjects, or falling back on the same type of circle conversation is not making as much progress as there might be potential to do so.

I ask advice on asking her about maintaining no contact, because I found some 000-0000-#### text numbers, and short phone calls, placed and received 4 days ago... and again just an hour ago.

From what I understand, calls and texts from 000 numbers are international and/ or skype numbers.

The other BS says a few of those call/text times do correspond with opportunities the OM might have had to make them.


* My wife and I had a couple decent talks today and she said we will hang out for another movie and dinner, tomorrow.

She actually blurted out a bargain... "If you do "this", Ill come tomorrow for the movie/ dinner we talked about"

I didn't ask for, or want it to be phrased as a compromise/ trade off, but agreed.

She said she is not ready to move away from being separated.
But, hints at it happening at some point.
She said she is back to "liking" me and that she did not for a long time, that there is a difference between liking and loving, and that she was much less "in love" with me, for years."


She also agreed (so far) to talk to her manager and request a move away from working weekends.
She said "It doesn't mean we're going to spend every weekend together".

I said: "Several of them"

Her: "okay"

Perhaps someone can give me some advice on what I should do next...

I was stabbed in the heart 3 times today.
It went from good to bad in an instant.

I sent my wife a text this morning that read "good morning" and attached a photo of the sunrise outside the skyscraper I was working in.
She sent nice messages back describing how cool the photo was and that It was a great view.

At the end of the exchange, I playfully and literally wrote...
*[insert text here about how much you love your wife]

She replied "bah" ... and I left it there.

I called her at lunch later and suddenly she was angry upon even first picking up the phone. I talked about the time we had planned together for tomorrow (we agreed to check out a very close to home, local pub/ billiard place we had never been to) and perhaps we could go downtown on one the next few weekends.

She started treating me terribly and at one point I calmly asked "Do you respect me?"... Opposite of what I hoped the answer was, she said "no". I asked why that is, and the answer was "Because you are selfish"
I asked what it was that I might have done...

She says, [stab number one]...
"Because of the extent you went out of your way to make sure me and OM / AP can't talk to each other again."

She apparently is still holding resentment from the exposure.
*I had thought she was beyond that by the progress that has been made in the last few weeks.

I said that everything I do is for us and our children. That she is the love of my life.
She hung up and wouldn't answer the return call.

I sent a few texts explaining that all I do and all I say and all I show, is for us.
That having us together and healthy is the most important thing in my life.

Later, after work, I was to pick up my youngest daughter from the workplace of my wife and and oldest daughter (they work the service station together on some nights) and I was to have have her for the next 5 days.

* We tried the same thing a few days ago, while staying at my parents, and my daughter
(age 13) ended up calling her mom after one day and had her pick her up in the driveway after I left for work (without telling her grandmother she was leaving).

They both (my wife and daughter) agreed it would be changed to today, but as has become common, I got a text from my daughter, one hour before I was to get her, saying she did not want to come.
I asked why and got a brief answer, and the comment... "because I said so".

I called my wife (who was standing right next to her) and asked her to please explain to our 13 year old that she is not allowed to say No to her father or make demands, especially after making plans.
My wife had little interest in helping me and said "She doesn't want to go".
[stab number 2]

My daughter said she would come in a few days and when I tried to verify that it would be for 5 days, she did not answer.

(She now, as our two youngest have done several times in the last few months, will be sitting around a gas station for the next 7 hours)


[Stab 3]
I called my wife to explain that I wanted no one upset, and let her know I agreed with our daughter to wait a few days. That it will likely be for 5 days, like talked about.

My wife asked me hold on while she got her keys and went outside.

The next words I hear from her:

"I am going to say this once. We are not friends, we are not buddies, we are not pals.
I don't want you. I don't want to be married".

I say again that she is lashing out at me and ask why she is upset with me today... She says "You know why".
(I'm assuming she means the comment from earlier about how I broke up the affair)

I tell her she is the only woman I have and will love and that everything I say and do is to be the best husband and father. That I want nothing more than for all of us to be involved in each others lives... the reply was...
"I don't want you in my life. It is too little, too late"
( this is her go to phrase when angry )

I said I am sorry you are upset, then reminded her I was calling about our daughter.
I also again promised my wife that our time together tomorrow would be great.

"I'm not doing any of that" she says. "I'm done". "We are only married on paper"
"I want you to stop all of it".
"I don't have the time or patience to deal with you right now".

hung up.


What should I do?
Wait?
Try calling later?
Change my approach?

This morning I was looking forward to what would have been our first time together (since discovery) out of the house. To a few hours later having some of the worst comments I have heard in the pat reappear, without cause.

Today has been pretty scary.

My guess is the OM stopped by her work.

Email yourself the text messages.

You need to accept the fact that you are not going to talk your WW into falling in love with you. By trying to do just that, you are pushing her further into withdrawal.

You need to allow pleasant exchanges to exist without pushing on so hard. You are trying to build up your balance in her love bank. You won't do that by declarations of your love for her; you will do it by demonstrations of your love. Do you understand the difference?