SC, I did not realize that I could email those scenarios and get direct help from Dr. H. Thank you so much! I'll do as you suggest. For some reason, I thought "follow up" meant letting them know how things were going later down the road.

Your post is encouraging. We can definitely take those steps you outlined. In fact, son would have likely been ok with a private discussion about how we'd just had a major team dinner/event the evening before and the promise of us bringing home ice cream after our date (we do this often).

It's not soccer but it is very similar. And it's tough when everyone else goes along with this stuff, even other moms when kids all decide they want subway in between games. I'm swimming upstream at these events.

Thanks for showing me some ways to change these habits with my husband, instead of just going along with it and feeling upset.

It does mean that, as well! But when Dr Harley tells callers (or emailers) to follow up with him, he is telling them to update him and ask further questions.

This is a serious problem for you.

I will say that although the issue of snooping is important and you should always do this, especially with your husband's rampant independent behaviour (an affair cannot take place without IB; indeed, an affair is the very definition of IB), I think that discussion of this is in danger of taking this thread off track. It should not become the primary focus of the thread until there is evidence of an affair.

The primary focus needs to be your (quiet, polite, dogged) insistence that your marriage must change, and that your entire recreational activities need to be arranged between your husband and you, not between your husband and the children. You need to keep in mind the "When to call it quits" advice. You do not argue with your husband, or tolerate his sulking about your high standards. You tell him how your marriage needs to change, you say "no" to all activities that take away from your pre-agreed UA time, and you ask him to leave when he does not accept your demands - as indeed, they are demands.

I too have a H who was prone to a lot of IB. It took me some time to realize that I played a role in that with my own sacrificing. It is not uncommon for that imbalance of the giver and taker in a relationship to happen. I wanted to be the good wife who did not stand in the way of him enjoying life by doing what he wanted to do, even if I was not really enthusiastic about it. MB has taught me not to sacrifice.

It is important for him to change his IB, however if you are sacrificing at all it is important for you to stop. For instance, if the team was going out for dinner and you were not enthusiastic about going, do not agree to go. Say you are not enthusiastic about it. Of course he could still just run over your feelings and agree to go anyway, but it does not seem that he is in the habit of doing that.

You being O&H about your feelings and not sacrificing will be a huge key in changing his IB ways.

For instance, how did you handle these situations? When your H wanted to go do sports with his guy friends, did you say no, I am not enthusiastic about that? And did he just walk out the door anyway? Or did you reluctantly agree for him to go? When your H wanted to go on a ski trip, did you say no you did not want him to go? Or did you reluctantly agree and then hold on to resentment that he actually did go?

Dr Harley has some great articles about sacrificing.

I will say that although the issue of snooping is important and you should always do this, especially with your husband's rampant independent behaviour (an affair cannot take place without IB; indeed, an affair is the very definition of IB), I think that discussion of this is in danger of taking this thread off track. It should not become the primary focus of the thread until there is evidence of an affair.

[/quote] The primary focus needs to be your (quiet, polite, dogged) insistence that your marriage must change, and that your entire recreational activities need to be arranged between your husband and you, not between your husband and the children. You need to keep in mind the "When to call it quits" advice. You do not argue with your husband, or tolerate his sulking about your high standards. You tell him how your marriage needs to change, you say "no" to all activities that take away from your pre-agreed UA time, and you ask him to leave when he does not accept your demands - as indeed, they are demands.

[/quote]

Thanks for this. This is the step I'm focusing on though I am also continuing to snoop. I agree with MB that transparency is important in every marriage, and I feel very hurt when I don't know who my husband is talking to throughout his day. Now that he is no longer going to rec class, I feel much better but the IB needs to change throughout for us to have successful marriage.

I will continue to be polite, quiet, and dogged in my approach. So far, this approach is definitely the right way to end the IB, when the issue is clearly addressed. I do want Dr. H's advice on how to handle the many other times it comes up when not specifically addressed though.

Husband does not sulk, thankfully. I thought he would, but he isn't. He's been texting me before and after every rec time with me to tell me how much he enjoyed that time with me. Not one word about missing his class or community. I presented it to him like it is my obligation (thanks Prisca) to ask him to stop IB that is a threat to our marriage. This resonated with him and he does understand, though he does not agree that he did anything wrong. Prisca and Markos helped me see that he does not need to agree- he only needs to stop the IB.

My work is to not argue or tolerate any arguing from him.

When I insist that IB must change and will no longer be accepted by me, these are demands, that's what you're saying, correct?

Also wanted to note that putting our children first is something he witnessed growing up. I know MB does not focus on childhood, but I thought it was interesting that my husband mentioned over dinner how he works hard to give our children more than we had growing up. He mentioned how his parents scraped every penny together to send him and his sister to private school so they wouldn't be bussed an hour away to an inner city school during that time (integration policies in public school).

Many people tell me how highly they think of my husband for his approach with our children. I've been told how selfless he is and how wonderful a father he is.

And I agree....but pointing this out to say that I do think this is where my work comes in. It's very difficult going against this way of thinking to get husband to put me first, when everyone, including my own family, sees nothing but good in my husband's approach to family.

And he's willing to do it. Yesterday son asked husband to take him and a few friends to a daytime event that would have cut our hike together short. I said no, and husband agreed.

So he is doing it. I just need to always ask politely, quietly, and doggedly. And not argue. This is not natural for me but like Dr. H said, I can never have an AO again if I'm committed. And I am. For the record, I never sounded like the couple on the AO radio clips. I did argue my point though, quite often. No more arguing.

Good questions, and thanks for sharing your experience with a husband with IB. I never thought of myself as a sacrificer because I'd argue when I didn't agree or wasn't enthusiastic. I argued and cried in those instances above. I got the bad advice that in order to have a happy marriage, I needed to let husband have his independence.

Our solution was to hire help, which my husband readily agreed to despite managing our money very carefully. I got upset about trip, even asked why he wanted to have a second child if he would be so quick to leave me on my own with a newborn, and he said he wouldn't go on the trip. I told him to go because I didn't want the resentment, with the agreement that we'd hire extra help.

I should add that by this point, I was exhausted about arguing with him about IB time. I told him I did not want him gone every weekend for 3 or more hours (I never knew how long it would be) to do a rec activity solo or with guy friends and he still didn't stop. In his mind, he worked hard all week to provide for us, and he deserved to enjoy rec time. Since I was caring for a little, I couldn't join.

Yes,. that's what i am saying. I'm pointing out the irony that Dr Harley tells us that there is no place for demands in marriage, but then he goes on to show us that we must demand a happy marriage, or separate. That's what the "Quits" article argues, in effect.

This is a very valid thing for parents to do. I think there is hardly a parent that wouldn't put their child's education at the top of their priorities, or work to give them more than we had. The thing is, we can work and save to send kids to certain schools, we can homeschool like markos and Prisca, we can move house or coach our kids through difficult exams (as many do here in the UK) but none of that means that we cannot have a marriage. You have not had a marriage. "Education" does not have to mean becoming a Dance Mom family - your H becoming a Sport Dad. (I've just started obsessively watching that series. We don't have that lifestyle as a rule in the UK. Yes, maybe if your son is Andy Murray and you are determined to make him a top tennis player, - maybe then you'll drive all over the country and move to Spain, even when your marriage is breaking down - but we don't do that here, if, like mine, your kids do a gymnastics class at the local club once a week. My eyes are wide and I gasp when I see the way Dance Moms and their ilk put their kids' careers above their marriages, above their other kids, and above normal family life.)

I think, from reading the online forum, that what you should aim for is an agreement with your husband that your (his and your) arrangements will be honoured, and that you can refuse your son's requests on your husband's behalf - he will give his agreement in principle that you will decline unexpected requests like this. However, with other requests on your time or goodwill that friends or family might make, your agreement should be that you will not answer on the spot for your husband, but you will speak to him in private, and your joint decision will be communicated later.

I'm not saying you did anything wrong - you did it entirely correctly. I'm just anticipating another scenario that might come up.

Dr. Harley's solution to that is for the husband's enjoyable recreational time to be spent with his wife. There is a universe of possible recreational activities. Something can be found that they both enjoy that fits into their lifestyle. Yes he does work hard and deserves recreation AND IT SHOULD BE WITH HIS WIFE and equally enjoyable to her, and her emotional needs should be met at the same time.

disagreeing is not arguing. You can respectfully disagree, an stand by your choices. The idea is to create a life of thoughtfullness toward one another that makes you both happy. So you dont stop with just disagreement, you work on finding mutually pleasing solutions.

I worry that I wasn't at all clear here. As a reader, I wouldn't understand what I was trying to say!

Your son, or anyone else, asks you to do something.

If it falls within UA time, you say no. You have your husband's agreement to do this without asking him first. Your UA time is non-negotiable (He needs to agree now that this is the case. He really does.)

If the activity is proposed for a time when you did not have UA time booked, you ask your H first before responding, unless you know this is something that neither of you would want to do. You need to discuss the kinds of things that this would cover.

Sugar Cane, thanks for clarifying. I did know what you meant and the scenario you described is exactly how I handled it the second time, but I didn't regarding the dinner. But you're saying I need to clarify with my husband that UA time scheduled will not be negotiated if something comes up (and of course things always come up). Is there a nice way of saying this without sounding more demanding?

Markos, I'm going to say those words to my husband if it comes up again (it didn't this time around). I needed to say that years ago.

Apples, I have found MB to be very helpful in realizing that disagreeing and complaining are both acceptable in a healthy marriage when done without AOs. I know I need to stay consistent with this.

Thanks to you all. I hope I'm not posting too much. It helps keep me on track w learning how to disagree, complain, and hold my marriage to a higher standard without AOs.

Let us know when you hear back from the Harleys.

It was addressed on today's show. It was hard to hear that my husband probably doesn't care for me. Is this what everyone is getting from this behavior? I thought it was an issue of not knowing that IB could be so hurtful.

Hi Kat-

It can be shocking to hear Dr. Harley put it so bluntly. To a certain extent, we all care about ourselves at times, more than we care about the other guy.

This article explains it well Have you read it before?

The Giver and the Taker

Thanks, DQ. I am familiar w that MB concept but didn't recall it in my situation. Now I do feel better reading this again.

My husband gives a lot though, that's where it's so confusing. He gives to the family and the children. He's giving me everything I've asked for since coming here and asking.

Was Dr. H saying that his taker is coming out in just the instances I wrote him about?

Yes. Us. MB is the ONLY thing that helped.



Sorry that I haven't been able to get on lately to answer the question you asked me about listening to MBR. I'm glad that you wrote to Dr. Harley about all of these other scenarios. What he explained today about this being a PROCESS, is so true, especially when POJA and PLANNING have never been practiced.

I would caution you not to take it personally when your husband forgets about you or doesn't take your feelings into account. Don't ignore it either. We all lack empathy for a foreign perspective and that is why the POJA is such an important rule. It requires us to have empathy where none existed.

One example of this is when your husband offered to bring Subway. Maybe he would have loved to hang out for 2 hours at the bb park, just toodling around with all of the other parents. He might have thought that you would enjoy the break from the kids. Maybe he figured that you wouldn't want to eat gluten, but asked anyway. The good thing is that he did call you first. So when he does that, even if he is way off base from your true perspective, try to thank him for thinking of you, and let him know what he CAN do for you.

When we started implementing POJA, it caused some problems with the kids because they weren't used to it. One thing that helped was that we sat them down and told them we were going to do things differently moving forward. We actually explained how good partners always get their heads and plan together, in order to keep the marriage and family strong. That helped us establish new habits, and it shut the kids down when they tried to circumvent one of us. It helps them learn to think ahead instead of throwing things at us last minute. Our kids know when we are having PLANNING mtg etc. Hopefully now it won't be a foreign concept when they grow up and get married.

Recently, one of my kids told me that their friend said: The one thing about your parents is that they are ALWAYS on the same page. How on earth do they know that? Probably because the kids make plans and know which parent will say no. Not here no more. So funny.

And one more thing about POJA. It also gives your husband the chance to respectfully express his perspective as well. There may be positives to his perspective that you would be more likely to consider if he were to talk about it with you before moving forward.

This is just a way that I made sense of my husband showing lack of care for me. It was a combo of his taker coming out, or his lack of understanding my perspective, or not caring.

To a certain extent, we CARE about our spouse because of what they bring to the table for us. So selfish, right? As long as your husband gets what HE wants, then he is good. He doesn't really CONSIDER that the things he is not doing for you are actually causing you real pain. The same things that bother you wouldn't bother him. He doesn't even think about it long enough to care. It is unintentional, and out of instint. That is why the people here are telling you to complain or even separate if necessary to send a clear message to him that his unintentional negligence and IB are seriously hurting you.

DQ, it's encouraging to hear that MB helped the IB stop. I'll do my best to not take it personally when my husband doesn't consider me, while still complaining nicely.

You're right about the Subway incident- he thought he was helping the family out my running the kids to pick up lunch and letting me stay at the field.

We had another similar situation last night. Son asked to go watch another team's game and I told him I'd talk it over w husband. Husband ended up taking him without talking to me about it first. When he got back from dropping son off, I said "I wish you would have talked it over w me first." He said, "Why?" He thought he was helping out by running son to game to be with friends so we could relax together. When he left, I didn't know if he was going to stay at the game too, or if son had dinner.

The ultimate IB is an affair. MB deals with eliminating IB all the time.

My question is, how does your husband react when you complain about his IB?

I find that response of his disturbing. How committed is he to eliminating IB?

In a MB marriage, even one that is trying to recover from IB, all you would need to say is:
"What you did bothered me."
That's all the why he needs. He should be willing to change his behavior simply because it bothers you. No further explanation needed. Is he willing to do that?

Dr. Harley is talking about extraordinary care. Your husband is not showing you any extraordinary care when he does IB. He can't do both at the same time -- it's impossible. They are the exact opposites of each other.

No, he doesn't know IB is hurtful. He probably has no empathy for what you are feeling because it probably wouldn't matter to him if you did IB. He'd probably think it's great if you did that, actually!

This is why MB concentrates on actions, not feelings. It doesn't matter if he feels empathy as long as he is willing to stop doing what hurts you. It doesn't matter if he feels care as long as he takes actions to care for you.

A big saying around here is: "Feelings follow actions!"

The feelings of care will follow once he starts taking consistent actions that show care. He will come to care for you.

What Dr, Harley is seeing at this point is that your husband is making some effort. You may get to a point where his effort is not enough, or he may give up and stop trying, at which point you will have a choice to make. But, right now, he's making an effort.