Why do you ask her these questions? My goodness.

You need stop trying to negotiate with her for love. By the way, her atrocious behavior doesn't merit your love either.

You are taking one step forward and three back. And she is still deep in the fog. I am wondering if she and her AP have had contact.

Regardless, man up. Get out of negotiating for love mode and get into courtship mode. You are auditioning for the part of husband, so start doing the things that men in courtship do, and stop doing the things that men who lose in courtship do.

Make yourself look good.
Get fit
Iron our cloths and shine your shoes.
Do the things that she used to love about you. But don't expect her to react. Just do them.
Be a great and a strong father.
Cheer up, but don't feign it or put on airs.
Carry on with confidence and strength, but with genuine humility.
Have self-respect and don't mope or fret.

Do NOT suffocate her. Give her space...a lot of it.

Plan A requires you to be assertive about being the best you, but not trying to hard to accelerate or manipulate her feelings towards you. Let he see you gradually changing and becoming a better man.

There are many ways you can show her you care and love her. But do it gently and without fanfare.

Change for the girls. Change for your wife. Change for yourself.

Thanks.
The fret part is the one I have the most trouble with and throws me off track. I am still in the shock of discovering that she was so far removed from the personality and emotions she portrayed, that it is hard to find a current level path.

I become reactive upon the negative episodes.
Not outwardly, but internally.

It's the negatives that carry the heaviest perception of being permanent, at the time they are happening.
But that is getting better.
I am learning that individual episodes, good or bad, do not equal a permanence in that direction.

Within a couple phone calls yesterday, everything was back on. Like the episode had never happened. We did all we talked of doing and then some. The longest and most productive time together yet.

I do.
But right now, because she has separated from me, I feel I will not get opportunities for "...demonstrations of your love", without constantly working to gain time together.
Because we are separated, I am relying heavily on words. Most are written in texts, which leads to some phone calls, which has led recently to time together.
The semi-heavy, and sometimes romantic texting has lead to a few angry outbursts on her part, but seems to have proved to be the most productive path.

Of course I very well could be misconstruing what is and is not working.


I am also a bit confused as my last radio show advice was to ask her for a date at least every other day. A few posts back it was suggested I keep up with the messages, even if many go unanswered, because I don't really know what type of effect they are having.

Now it is suggested that I give her lots of space
(which I believe means laying off on the attempts at communication).

This is a bit scary because I am also struggling with the fear/ belief that if a day goes by in which we do not have any communication whatsoever, might result in another small thread broken and another day she conditions herself to live without me.

Is tough to judge by the hour.
Within just the last three days she went from not wanting anything to do with me (phone) to us spending 4.5 hours going out together (in person), to not answering texts and getting briefly upset yesterday (phone), to (in person) saying we will spend time together again (the day after today,) to once again not replying the few messages and a phone call I tried today.
(And in the last couple days I have refrained from writing how much I love and miss her)

You need to ALWAYS take the advice that Dr Harley gave you.

Not everyone has read your thread right through. Your thread is very long, and people don't always have the time to read back several pages before responding to your latest post. They do not realise that you have been given advice directly from Dr Harley - but you DO know this. Why would you question his advice?

You've been here almost every day, sometimes several times a day, second-guessing your every move and not maintaining a consistent line. You've been told what Plan A involves - and when your wife has moved out and you want to win her back, it does not involve giving her "lots of space".

You are your own worst enemy in the way that you take every change of mood from your wife, and every smile and every frown, as meaning that she has had a change of heart and you need to change your strategy. You don't. Do Plan A the way Dr Harley told you to do it.

Thank you SugarCane. I'll keep at it while trying not to smother.


I do have another question...

I found out today that she is following and receiving notifications of updates from the OM's Instagram account.

He also has several photos on Instagram of him and my wife together.

The notification also states she and the OM are FB friends.

I know he deactivated his FB accounts, and I can find no trace on FB of the name he uses on Instagram. I believe FB allows users to hide their accounts from selected individuals. The OM's spouse says she believes he doesn't have a FB account any longer, but Instagram says otherwise. So I am believing he is hiding a FB account not only from me, but from his wife as well.

I have just told the OM's wife what I discovered.

My questions are... Can I do anything else about this?
I would like to report his page, and post comments on the photos. But I have a feeling the comments will be removed and I will be blocked from the OM's Instagram account.

I might also be able to access my wife's FB, but it will definitely send her a notification that someone in our town has accessed her account. So I have not tried.

Should I ask my wife if she is still following the OM online? Or tell her that I know?

I am also thinking of asking my 20 year old daughter to ask her mom to stop following the OM online. Is this a bad idea?

I am almost considering another round of exposure letters, at least a message to his father, asking for help by pointing out the Instagram account and the photos.

* FB messenger says the previous exposure messages were "read", but the OM's father never did reply to the two previous messages.
(one exposing the affair, and the other asking for help including my contact information)

I am considering this because although the OM's BS shows concern about her marriage, she doesn't seem to make demands on change.
She has gotten her WH to show her his skype account, but every other electronic device (and chat program), including phone and laptop are still locked from her.

She hasn't made him change his email address(es), phone number, or remove my wife as a contact on his phone.

(I did very recently give the other BS the recovery checklist, to bring her to speed on judging progress)

He has remained living in their spare back room of the house and she is set on "giving him space".
The other BS seems more concerned with helping...him... through... His.. therapy sessions and "sadness".

Other BS hasn't changed routines either. For example, still takes showers at the same times she did when he snuck calls,
lets him continue going on his outdoor "walks", which he used to sneak calls. Doesn't check on him during his work lunch, where he again snuck calls and messages to my wife.

* Months ago, the other BS asked me to stop contacting her WH becauses it causes him more depression and doesn't help her on that end.
(This happened after my OM confrontation letters were sent)

** But, I just found out yesterday from my wife that the other BS has contated her very recently to ask if she was still talking to her husband.

The other BS did not inform me she was doing this.
(The other BS also gave me up as the person who initiated the conversation/warning that contact might still be happening or perhaps attempts were made)

So, I am leaning to adding comments to the many instagram photos on the OM's account.
( Something along the line of... "Remove these photos of you and my wife! You know exactly why!" )

Of course my WW will get an email notification that there has been activity on the OM's Instagram account and see the comments.
So, I am torn between doing so or leaving it alone.

To the other BS's credit, she had previously told me months ago that her WH has been told if he gets on another airplane to the USA, he is out.
She has also cross referenced the times of the recent "000-000" phone numbers (I mentioned above).
Unfortunatly, half of them are confirmed opportunities that the OM could have called.
(Again, because the other BS has not changed her daily routine)

But, there has been no advancement on that end otherwise.

I have asked the other BS for an update on her stating that she will talk to her WH about blocking my WW from his instagram.
("Blocking"... not removing the photos. I have also asked for clarification on that)

At the same time, my wife and I spent nearly the whole day together yesterday, with our two youngest children, attending a charity function and marching in a holiday parade (arriving to the event separately), surrounded by many mutual friends (whom are also members of our organization).

This was my wife's first time interacting with our friends, since my discovery and exposure.

* Nearly everyone in attendance, dozens of them, know what has happened.

** Yet none of those whom are closest to her (some of the very first I exposed to) were willing to hold her accountable. They spoke with her as if nothing was amiss.
My WW was able to interact with nearly everyone as if nothing was wrong.

Some did come to me separately and express they were sorry, but my wife experienced or heard none of this.

While together, my wife went up and down from laughing, joking and taliking with me, to a small outburst against me, in front of others (loudly accusing me of "following her around" when I came up to talk with her at one point), to again lauging and talking, to mentioning that I will be recieving divorce papers soon (I believe it will not happen but I can not really know)... to again laughing, joking and talking.

The event ended with me asking her if we will spend time together (eyes swelling, while holding back tears) and her saying "I will try, but I can't promise anything".

Shortly after, she drove away with our children to an out of state holiday spot for the next few days, for which I was told I am not invited to go with.

We were able to talk about quite a few things regarding us and the condition we are in, and I believe I was able to make several deposits, but like nearly all of our interactions... they start with absolute uncertainty, bounce up and down (on her part), then end with absolute uncertainty.

Later that night, I texted to ask if they arrived safely, that I had fun, that I love her and our children and wished her a goodnight. She replied by stating everyone had a good time, they did arrive safely and also said goodnight back to me.

(My messages spoke of love and family, while hers were short and straight to the point)

But again today, she is back to ignoring the couple messages I have sent and the one phone call I tried to make.

It is mentally hard to deal with on a daily basis and I still have at least one long or short breakdown per day.

* The scary part now is that Dr. Harley mentioned on the program that if after 3 months of non-substantial progress (following my wife's "semi"-no contact letter to the OM), I find we are still in basically the same position, he would be concerned.
That date is 3 weeks from today.

Yesterday might be considered progress, but she has blown off the last two times we agreed to spend time together, and was going to attend this event (while bringing our children with), with or without me.

I'm hoping someone might be able to give some advice on my questions above.

I'm trying to remove triggers that may cause her to seek out contact with the OM.

-------
The last few days have been pretty bad.
Since the charity event 5 days ago she has taken only 3 calls and replied to none of the texts.
Two of the calls accepted were a few days ago (same day) in which she became angry quickly and hung up on me.

I've continued to text her as I have been. A mixture of funny jokes, suggesting little things we might do together, inviting her to activities our friends are planning as a group, and talking about wanting to spend my life with her and building a marriage in which she would be completely happy.

All of it simply ignored with no response.

She accepted the third call yesterday in which she was pleasant. She said the jokes were funny, but also said she wished I would stop texting her. We then talked for a minute normally about the trip she just had with our children and another random subject. I again asked if she was planning to alter her work schedule to free up weekends so we could start spending weekends together (something she has agreed to, then not agreed to, several times). Her answer was... "I don't know". This is her answer to nearly every question I ever ask. We talked normally for another minute, before she said she was getting off the phone now. I asked her if she would call me later and she said "I will call you later", I showed excitement in that answer before saying goodbye.... her call back didn't happen.

I texted another joke latter in the evening and also let her know I would rather spend time with my wife than my guy friends. I also said I was so tired of us not being under the same roof.

Perhaps the last few posts were too long?

I tried to break the questions up with a bit of relavant info.

I haven't yet acted on anything Ive asked about above.

Hi PTSD,
I haven't read your whole thread but do see you have a lot of questions.
Can you send a quick follow up with Dr Harley on them? It seems like some of the things he has asked you to do is a little different and maybe that is keeping others from commenting.

Sorry I don't have any advise other than that!

I have been trying to compose another letter, but as I add info as to why I am asking the questions, it is becoming lengthy. (Trying to re-write it shorter).

Until then, would someone give me advice on one of the questions above? This is something I am wishing to do something about, today...


I found out my W is following and receiving notifications of updates from the OM's "Instagram" photo account.

He also has several photos on Instagram of him and my wife together.

The notification also states she and the OM are FB friends.

I know he deactivated his FB accounts, and I can find no trace on FB of the name he uses on Instagram. I believe FB allows users to hide their accounts from selected individuals. The OM's spouse says he deactivated his FB accounts, but Instagram says he and my wife are still "friends".

(perhaps deactivated, but not deleted FB accounts still show "friends" ??)

I also might be that he is hiding a FB account not only from me, but from his wife as well.

I have told the OM's wife what I discovered.


My questions are...

Can I do anything else about this?
I would like to report his Instagram page, and post comments on the photos. But I have a feeling the comments will be removed and I will be blocked from the OM's Instagram account.

I might also be able to access my wife's FB, but it will definitely send her a notification that someone in our town has accessed her account. So I have not tried.

Should I ask my wife if she is still following the OM online?
Or tell her that I know?

I am almost considering another round of exposure letters.
At least a message to OM's father and sister, asking for help by pointing out the Instagram account and the photos.

* FB messenger says the previous exposure messages were "read", but the OM's father never did reply to the two previous messages.
(one exposing the affair, and the other asking for help including my contact information)

* The OM's sister accepted my friend request, and I wrote to her afterward, so I know she received my letters... but also did not reply. She in fact still has me listed as a FB friend.

I am considering this because although the OM's BS shows concern about her marriage, she doesn't seem to make demands on change.
She has gotten her WH to show her his Skype account, but every other electronic device (and chat program), including phone and laptop are still locked from her.

She hasn't made him change his email address(es), phone number, or remove my wife as a contact on his phone.

(I did recently give the other BS the recovery checklists, to bring her to speed on judging progress)

He has remained living in their spare back room of the house and she is set on "giving him space".
The other BS seems more concerned with helping...him... through... His.. therapy sessions and "sadness".

Other BS hasn't changed routines either. For example, still takes showers at the same times she did when he snuck calls,
lets him continue going on his outdoor "walks", which he used to sneak calls. Doesn't check on him during his work lunch, where he again snuck calls and messages to my wife.

* Months ago, the other BS asked me to stop contacting her WH because it causes him more depression and doesn't help her on that end.
(This happened after my original OM confrontation letters were sent)

So, I am leaning to adding comments to the many Instagram photos on the OM's account.

( Something along the line of... "Remove these photos of you and my wife! You know exactly why!" )

Of course my WW will get an email notification that there has been activity on the OM's Instagram account and see the comments.
So, I am torn between doing so or leaving it alone.

It may also result in severing contact with the other BS as she asked me not to cause him further grief.

To the other BS's credit, she had previously told me months ago that her WH has been told if he gets on another airplane to the USA, he is out.
She has also cross referenced the times of the recent "000-000" phone numbers (I mentioned above).
Unfortunately, half of them are confirmed opportunities that the OM could have called.
(Again, because the other BS has not changed her daily routine)

But, there has been no advancement on that end otherwise.

I have asked the other BS for an update on her stating that she will talk to her WH about blocking my WW from his Instagram.

("Blocking"... Not actually removing the photos)

As of yet it appears neither have been done.

Should I do this?
Should I run it by the other BS first?
I would like to keep making it very difficult for him to keep pining after my wife.

And, should I try to access my wife's FB account?... knowing she will find out?

Thank you everyone.

Have you told her that it hurts you immensely, for her to continue her affair with OM?

I have told her this once before.
I was told in this thread that because she separated it doesn't have the effect it should.

There have been other times that she has seen me upset and the reply has been "I am sorry this is hurting you".
(in regard to being separated and her saying it is over)


edit:

If anyone reads this thread, you will remember the OM lives half way around the world.
There is virtually no chance of him coming to the USA again.

Still not sure what to do about the Instagram photos.


Would it be a detriment to tell her about the MB program?

Perhaps not by name, but to let her know there is a program I have found that shares the same beliefs about creating, improving and healing marriages, and ask if she would like to learn about it?

I'm nearly positive she will not be willing to participate, but perhaps talking about my efforts and desire to heal, and letting her know there is help out there that I have taken the time to learn about, perhaps it will function as a deposit?

I have written another letter to the radio show, it should air within the next few days. I've included most of the questions that I have asked recently.

I have also gone and talked to my wife's mother again to bring her up to date on what is/ has been happening.

--------

What I did not ask in my letter to the program, and am hoping someone might give their advice on, is the question just above about mentioning the program ?

Another is...
I am still able to access our family's cell phone plan and records. My wife is listed as the primary account holder, but it is one of the few websites that she has not changed her password on and does in fact know I am able to see this information.

I discovered yesterday that she is sending 100's of texts back and forth to a number I have never seen before. This is a number in a neighboring town, not from the OM, whom lives overseas.

Best I can gather (but not 100 percent certain), by searching the number online, is that this is a male coworker. The texts have been literally one or more per minute, for several days.
They are at all hours of the day and night, including early AM, like 1 to 3 in the morning. I tried calling this number, while masking my number as private, but it goes to a generic "leave a message" recording, with no name expressed.
(likely the person did not pick up because my incoming call would have showed as a "private number")

The incoming texts are heavier than her outgoing texts but she is regularly replying and continuing the conversation. Sometimes it drops to a 1 to 1 ratio.

Should I ask her about this?
Is there anything else I can/ should do?

She does know I can still access the phone carrier's website and our family phone records. There is a possibility however that if I do ask, she will change the password to the carrier's website and/or shut my phone off.

* Our phones are still synced, and I am able to see the websites she visits, and her gps location 24 hours a day.

These two questions have now jumped to the top of my concerns.
I had thought I was sending too many texts at about 8 to 10 per day, and have thought about stopping for several days, as not to seem needy (and she has stopped replying to them).

Checking the phone records today, I've discovered that she has sent back and forth 1400 texts to that mystery number, in just the past 4 days.

I am very scared she is jumping right into another affair.
I have printed out the phone records that show instances of the texting (53 pages), but have no idea what to do next.

I have thought about handing them to her mother. Perhaps she will ask her daughter about it.
Or leaving them on her car at work with a note asking her to please stop.
Or maybe sending her a message or an email, explaining that I know what she is doing, asking who is at the other end of the text, and that it needs to end.

* Recently, she had told me about buying paintball tickets.
It is something we talked of doing, after discovery. I had been coming up with ideas of spending recreational time together and this was something she seemed interested in.
She had refused, but informed me some weeks ago (after our time at the mall) that she bought six pairs of tickets and thought it would make me happy if we were to do this together.
I told her she was wonderful for doing this and that It would be a great time. She said she did not want to start right away but that we could in the fall.

But, she has since stopped answering my calls, stopped replying to texts, and has now started sending all of these messages to an unknown person at an unknown number.

I don't want to blow the possibility of this time together from happening by doing something rash, although I am frightened she has already cancelled it in her mind.

Perhaps the best way to respond to the discovery of these texts is to write a love letter (through email so that I may check that it was read).
I have just written a letter. It describes memories of the past, my passion and love today, and if she will allow me to, a building of a wonderful life and marriage. The desire for her to return with our children, and what to expect in our and our family's future.

I am working on sending it. What I am unsure of is if I should explain a little about what I will need from her in return, or if I send those things in a following letter.

Perhaps a following letter will be best(?)
I would like to, and feel I need to express that I need to know her contact with the OM has truly ended, and that I need her to stop texting this other person, whomever it may be.
Perhaps I can mention the MB program and invite her to read and/or start with a specific page. Perhaps mention that we can start a thread together.
If I do mention the program and the website, I will be able to check and find if she actually visits.

Have you researched the new number? Who does it belong to? What does the spyware tell you?

I have no spyware.
Because we are separated, I have no opportunity to install any.
I would not be able to anyway as her phone is locked with thumbprint access.
What I have are synced phones which allow me to see the websites she visits and monitor her movements by GPS.

I have access to the phone providers website, which allowed me to discover the texts. I also have access to her, at one time, primary email account. She has since created several more email accounts allowing her "primary" account to be filled with 10's of thousands of spam messages.
She now uses other accounts which I can not access as her methods of communication.
I could try to guess my way into them but they are @gmail accounts and send a notification text to her when accessed.
The email account I am most concerned about is one she created using her middle and maiden name as the address. Apparently to conceal her identity.
I had asked her about this account and the reply was... "that is the account I want you to stay the h*ll away from."

As far as researching the phone number of the texts, I found a possible match with a name that I "believe" is the same as someone she works with. This name is listed as residing in a neighboring town, so I am almost certain It is correct.

I tried calling a couple times, while hiding my number as private, but it is a generic "leave a message" recording.

I am frightened she is jumping right into another affair.
Over 1400 texts in 4 days, at all hours of the day and night.

At the same time, she has stopped replying to my messages and phone calls for over a week, with the exception of a couple sentences. I have continued to send 8 or so per day, trying to engage a reply, and try calling once or twice per day with no reply or get cut off after a couple rings.
I have not tried to communicate with her today, with the exception of the emailed love letter described above. I thought I would wait until I confirm she has read it before I try to resume conversation.
It could be days as she has allowed the account to basically become a trash heap, and does not regularly check it.
* I did think about sending it to one of her other accounts, including the one I have just mentioned that she told me she wanted to stay away from.

** I am unsure as to send a follow up letter explaining that I need to be reassured her affair is over and that she is not pursuing yet another man. I am also unsure if I should mention MB and invite her to join me in learning about it.

In my messages I am constantly coming up with new ideas of spending time together, but am really getting nowhere with it.
Only two occasions in July, totaling about 12 hours.

It's driving me a bit crazy and causing anxiety. She was at it again all day today. She is talking to this number, very likely another man, as I type this. I am almost willing to directly ask who she is talking to so often and directly calling the number without hiding whom is calling and outright confronting them.

What I did do was send a message hours ago stating that I hope her day was going okay and asked if she would like to get coffee or something to eat tomorrow as we both have off work.

When that got no answer, I sent the second text of the day, about an hour ago, with this...
(borrowing ideas from another thread)

"It bothers me that you have a wall up. It hurts to think you might be filling conversation with another. I would very much love to spend some time with you and give you the center of my attention. To concentrate on pleasant activities and resolve troubles".