Good, have him write Dr. Harley. He has a way of gently but effectively showing people where they err.

I needed to hear this. I was able to meet ENs because I know my husband's way of apologizing was how he was acting last night. DQ is right- my quiet and calm way of handling that situation sent a very clear message to him. In the past, I would be very direct and upset w him, and we'd argue.

But last night at the field and dinner, all I wanted to do was go home, shut the door, and get away from him and my son. It felt abusive, but I didn't want to make a scene at dinner. I thought that if I refused to go, or left the restaurant, brining the kids with me, that would have been an AO. Thanks for showing me it isn't. That my instincts are right on.

*edited to ask for guidance on what to email him. Is the sentence Prisca posted enough or do I spell out all the issues regarding last night as well?

I had an angry husband and was in the full time counseling and talked to DR. H.
Leaving and refusing to sit around being abused is not an AO. A scene should have been what happened.
It would not have been your fault.

What caused the scene Kat? The abuse or you not accepting being abused?

You don't need apology's- you need his actions to change.

If you felt that way honey....(wanting to go home) you need to LISTEN to your enthusiastic feelings!!!!

You yourself is over riding your own feelings - follow it!

You are harming your marriage more by enabling this.

What is wrong with it threatening him? Your marriage is headed down a horrible path and you are trowing up warning signs everywhere.
It should threaten him. He should take this seriously.

DO not feel guilty about this.
Wow, has he gas light you so much that you are even guilty over wanting to be loved and not abused?

Agree with him.
Yes, this should threaten you. Your marriage is on the line. This is may day. We are on the brink of separating.
I am so unhappy, incredibly hurt and tired of your abuse that it has to change and I am no longer willing to live like this.

Yes-I am controlling what I am willing to live with.

I am not angry, I am in great and agonizing pain and you need to pay attention.

Yes, I am "worked up" (or whatever word he uses)because our marriage is failing. It is my job to give you the bank notice that your overdrawn and we are drowning.

Yes, it is that serious.

DO you see my point?

Yes, I do. So I should actually email him this, along with Prisca's script regarding contact Dr H if he doesn't understand the POJA? Do I include details from last night and why that's not ok?

Thanks, Elaina. It is hard to realize that my husband is the one who is being unreasonable. Everyone thinks he's great. Even leaving dinner last night my kids wanted to ride with him, not me. They adore him. My friends adore him.

When he arrived to meet me at other child's game, I got up from my seat to greet him. He gave me a quick peck then walked ahead and had a 5 min conversation with another coach, leaving me standing there staring at his back. I just don't get it. It upset me. But how do I say that talking to the coach instead of me upset me? I feel unreasonable.

Why don't you start off telling him last night bothered you and hurt you immensely. Then give Prisca's lines.
Add another about the full time counseling.

*nobody is saying he is an awful guy- he just doesn't know how to be married!*

Also, why don't we get away from the word un-reasonable. It is a judgment word.
He wasn't being unreasonable, he was being abusive with DJ, AO and SD.
I would try to never again think about yourself as reasonable or unreasonable. It gets you no where.
You have feelings and need them respected period. What that looks like is different for every person!

Whether or not he thinks it is or isn't unreasonable is a moot point. No matter what he thinks, he is hurting you and he needs his actions to stop.

Don't get to the point where you feel like you weigh your feeling and what you ask for on "HIS" perception of reasonable or sensitive, or too much etc.

It is what it is and he has to deal with it to have a happy life-!!!!

PS: Start right now a journal, and write down each and every thing from last night that bothered you.
This way you can give it to him later and you have a record. (This is a huge thing DR. H will have you doing anyways, so start now)

Kat, the situation I'm seeing here is that you are not enthusiastic about your son being involved in sports when he is such a disrespectful jerk towards his mother.

Therefore, neither one of you should take your son to practice or games until he is respectful again.

If he gets kicked off the team during that time, maybe he should've straightened out faster.

Meanwhile, your husband is the coach of this team. I'm sure your enthusiasm for that isn't very high, either.

Agreed, Markos. And I want my husband to see this too and do his best to protect me from further disrespectful behavior from our son. Like Prisca said, he is putting our son, and sports involvement, first instead.

I need to know the best way to approach him about this. Do I send him an email today that goes over specific ways his actions hurt me yesterday, what we should have done instead, and include Prisca's script about how I need him to agree to follow the POJA with me from now on and if he has any questions about how to do that, he can email Dr H himself?

Drawing this portion of your evening out of the context of the rest of it, here is an example of how your POJA technique could be improved:


This would be a great opportunity to POJA over something trivial, that isn't so emotionally loaded.

Instead there was a somewhat judgemental back and forth, conceding and sacrificing.

Perhaps he has a different idea of what "too small" is. You are assuming that only your perception of "too small" is correct. Neither your or he can claim the high ground of being correct. "Too small" is subjective. You are both right in your feelings about what it too small.

Instead of spending energy on who is correct about the table, which is win/lose, spend your energy on finding a mutually agreeable win/win solution.

"I think I'll spill my food if 4 plates don't fit at that table. What would you think of
.......waiting for the next table?", or
....... trying xxxxx restaurant instead?", or
........us making a sandwich at home?" or maybe even
"If you feel this would work, we could try to pull chairs up to the corners to see if we would fit."

...or so very many other options that could be suggested.

Remember to negotiate from a place of good will towards the other person, not from a preconceived fixation on what you "know" is right. The same things are not "right" to everyone.

This is so frustrating to read, because it is not right.

First: Kat already suggested going to another place (your suggestion no. 2). She had already shown a willingness to negotiate. She also showed a willingness to consider H's point of view when she agreed to stay for a while, and indeed, found a table.

There was nothing wrong with her expressing her opinion that the table was too small. She was not disrespecting her husband by voicing this opinion.

The person doing the disrespecting was her husband, when he showed irritation. He then DJd her by telling her she was getting worked up.

What she was doing was expressing her distaste for that table. She would not have enjoyed her meal squeezed into that space, and she had every right to say so. At that point, her husband should have respected her point of view, and not judged her and become irritated with it. His behaviour was intolerable.

There was absolutely nothing in that account to suggest that Kat was unwilling to negotiate, from a place of goodwill, with her husband. Indeed, she suggested going somewhere else, and she also agreed to wait a little longer when her H asked. What she didn't want was to spoil her evening by squeezing onto a table for 2. There is nothing wrong with her having held that point of view - she was not enthusiastic about that table.

The person unwilling to negotiate was her husband, when he showed his irritation and told her she was getting worked up. That was utter disrespect and she would have been justified in leaving right then.

Agree x 100

He has no excuse to act out in irritation, but from this account what was "obvious" to her was not obvious to him. That's a basic premise of POJA - you may be both right, but find something that you both like.

In almost every post, Kat is looking to us for solutions but also step by step help with her techniques.




This is very horrible, and on her thread I've been one of the biggest advocates against accepting this behavior and separating from him over it.

This is why I spoke just to the specifics of POJA'ing the table, and excluded the context of what was going on in the evening as a whole.

Kat, you should email him the list I posted, just as it is. We need to see what his response is.

Prisca, send him this today with nothing else other than Dr H's email address? Don't include anything about yesterday, right?


"It bothers me when you make decisions without me."
"It bothers me when you don't take my feelings into account."
"I need you to agree to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement with me. If you need help understanding it, here is Dr. Harley's email address."

Yes. We need to see what his response is before you can go any further.

This is a problem that can be worked out once we know whether or not her husband is on board. This is a speck in Kat's eye compared to the beam in her husband's.

He just read the 3 sentences you helped me with, Prisca, along with the POJA article as it applies to marriage, not just parenting like the previous one I sent him, and texted me back: Ok, no worries we are on the same page. I love you.

He had no excuse to act out in irritation - and that should be the end of that sentence. He was irritated before Kat made the point that it was obvious that the table was too small. He was irritated as soon as she indicated that she did not want to sit there. He was the problem in that interaction, not Kat. He did not respect her point of view, and he used a nasty tactic - irritation - to get her to back down from her point of view. He wanted to stay in the restaurant at all costs, and when he knew that she did not - not if it meant sitting at a particular table that she didn't like - he tried to get her to sit down and shut up. That is the height of disrespect.

The solution we ought to be giving Kat is to give her the confidence to insist that her husband does nothing that she is not enthusiastic about. He should consider her viewpoint first and foremost, and if she isn't enthusiastic about something, like sitting at a table, he should not bully her into accepting his point of view.

The technique that we need to teach Kat is to insist that her husband takes her views into account, and that she learns to "do nothing" when they do not agree.

You are not helping her, Sunnytimes. You are not teaching her Marriage Builders, because you are misunderstanding it. You have your own agenda here, for some reason, and you are deflecting attention from the fact that Kat's husband is insensitive and dismissive to Kat's feelings and wishes.

Kat, did you hear MB Radio running now? It would be helpful for you. The first topic is about the POJA and what to say when your spouse isn't following it.