I would like help with a problem of determining the correct MB way of bringing EP issues to the attention of my wife. Specifically the EP is interactions with other men.

Some opposite-sex interactions are just no brainers. I am confident we are on the same page in these obvious examples as being not OK during an interaction between her and another man:

Him: "Hey, baby. What's your number?"
Her: "Wow! You lived in (her favorite foreign country) for five years? You have to tell me all about it." (In a private setting.)
Him/her: Hand on arm, shoulder, leg.

The problem with flirting is that you have all kinds of flirting that is not obvious. I don't think I am supposed to link to an external site on the forum, but if you just Google something like "How do I tell if someone is flirting", there is a boat load of evidence, even from scientific sources such as Psychology Today about how subtle flirting often is. They also talk about how bad we often are at detecting it accurately.

It is my understanding that I am the determiner of whether Azurite's behavior is violating an EP, or is hurting me, correct? If so, then that part is not an issue.

The issue is how to EXPRESS to her when this is happening. Let's say we are at a party and I find her particular behavior at some point offensive to me. My temptation is to simply say discretely, "When you (behaved in some very specific way) toward that guy, I felt very disrespected."

The problem with this is that there are sooo many ways that this sort of openness could be manifest. Is it not more productive just to say, "Your openness in that conversation made me feel offended." And then only if Azurite doesn't have a clue, she could ask for clarification?

Another question is about WHEN to bring it up. Do I need to wait until something concrete has happened? In other words, I am getting all kinds of bad vibes about some jerk she is talking to but neither of them have actually done anything yet that could be proven in a court of law on video tape. At least not without an expert witness from Psychology Today...

And what about having to be so specific every time with something that has so many manifestations? At some point it starts to feel like a cat/mouse game. Azurite plays the boundary lines by saying she didn't do anything wrong because I've never pointed out the precise thing she did previously. I really don't believe she's out to hurt me. But I do believe she places things like what she sees as "politeness" to other men or enjoying "reasonable" interactions with men above our marriage. Does this cat/mouse aspect ever get better?

I do a lot of business around women. The vast majority are able to communicate to me and other men that they are NOT interested in openness. This is generally done through body language, facial expressions, tone, etc. And I am not talking about a situation where I have provoked some kind of defensiveness. Most women just seem to know how to avoid getting personal. Do I occasionally feel that some woman is being unnecessarily cold? Sure, but I RESPECT her for that because she has firm boundaries. I am not offended! Especially since many men are constantly pushing the line on women in the workplace. I don't blame the women at all.

I do not have a desire for EPs to be a negative force. I want them to foster a healthy marriage of extraordinary care. I am NOT interested in being "that guy" - the unstable, jealous, paranoid husband. That would be a terrible way to live. But I am also not interested in being continually offended by behaviors that steal our intimacy and honor others above our marriage.

Thank you for thoughtful answers to the specific questions and any advice you can offer on the issue overall.

Erastis, why don't you guys quit going to parties and other occasions that trigger the behavior that is worrying you?

Other than that, you just tell her how you feel, and then let her decide what she is going to do about it. Also, focus on habits that are commonly executed rather than analyzing each and every interaction.


Don't try to read her mind or psychoanalyze her. Just tell her what bothers you.


You don't know her motivation. There is no such thing as psychic powers. Don't DJ her like this.


There shouldn't be any discussion of right and wrong. Just tell her what bothers you. If you've never told her before, no big deal, because telling her doesn't mean she's in trouble and has to pay a penalty.

Because:
1) The third part of Harley's definition of a terrific marriage: creating a lifestyle that is mutually enjoyable by following POJA.
2) I don't want to live in a cave and neither does she.
3) The behavior is a lot more present than I may have given the impression of.


I didn't have to. She told me this.


That brings up something I have been wondering. Is a DJ only a DJ if it is said to Azurite? In other words, if I have a DJ thought in my head, and let's say I say it to my therapist in confidence, is that still a DJ? (Kind of like if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear, does it make a sound kind of thing.)?

I could word my statement to be more neutral, but I don't see what you are saying. When Azurite has plainly told me that she does not believe in "openness" as a concept, and requires me to list an ever-growing complex list of things that define it, if that is not "working the system", I don't know what is. It is a simple statement of what she has said to me.

No, I have no idea what her REASON for working the system is. Other than she doesn't believe in "my level of sensitivity". I am not claiming to judge her motives. But her outward actions are clear, and what she flat out tells me is clear.

Feel free to comment more on that because I am obviously not getting where the DJ is in this.


When Azurite says she didn't do anything wrong, she means she did not do anything I have made her aware that bothers me. It is her saying it, so the use of the word "wrong" is not an issue of judgment. What are you getting at with this?

Wow, you are really disrespectful to people who don't live like you.


She told you she places politeness above your marriage?


If you post it here, it's a DJ. Don't treat the board as some sort of safe space where you can say things Azurite won't see or be affected by. (I got this advice from Steve Harley in 2010, btw.)


I am saying you need to learn to recognize and avoid this mistake. I wouldn't point it out if it weren't important. Listening and learning rather than debating will help you get where you want to go quicker.

Erastis, do you listen to the daily radio show?

Exactly. So the solution is to eliminate things in your life that create tension or strife in your marriage. It seems like parties do that.


Ok, I spend all of my free time with my husband and I do not consider that a "cave." I view it as the best time of my week and so does he. We look forward to our dates and time together. When we are invited to a party, event, we have to decide if we really want to squander our free time spending it with others. Usually the answer is NO.

My H and I don't "live in a cave" and we probably go to about 1 party a year. [TOPS] Pretty much, we REFUSE to sacrifice much more of our free time than that.

Short list of the questions I asked:

It is my understanding that I am the sole determiner of whether Azurite's behavior is violating an EP, or is hurting me, correct?

How should I be describing flirtations? Very specifically ("When you locked eye contact and smiled for five minutes straight"), or should a general statement of "When you were talking to him") suffice? Azurite is saying that she must have very minute, specific details. Is that reasonable?

Should I be required to wait until subtle, hard-to-prove flirtations turn into blatant actions before saying anything about it?

I get it that all of this seems like overblown paranoia... until you start reading about flirting from a clinical point of view. Aww Dean, you're just a little sensitive poo. Really? Is it sensitivity or is it gaslighting? If it's sensitivity, why don't I "imagine" these issues with every man she talks to? Why are there consistencies with certain men?

MelodyLane, Azurite tells me that what you describe characterizes our marriage in earlier years where I attempted to moderate her openness (and my hurt) by restricting her circulation. I understand that POJA is not the same, but I think she may see it as the same. You would have to ask her. I do know one thing. She has made it crystal clear that she will NOT be going back to that kind of life where she is not social.

She has made comments about never wanting to speak to another man again (in the current day) out of frustration on this issue. And I think she might actually be willing to do that, but I don't think that is a healthy solution, nor sustainable for her.

YES. You are the only person who is qualified to determine if something hurts/upsets you or not.


Just tell her what behavior makes you uncomfortable and to please stop.


Tell her what behavior makes you uncomfortable and to please stop.


Calling one's spouse "sensitive" or "paranoid" is a disrespectful judgment that should be taken off the table. If you are "overly sensitive" does it make any sense to aggravate you? She should, therefore, be MORE cautious, not less.

...and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

This probably sounds silly but it is a serious question. When a disrespectful judgment is made, is it considered to meet the conditions of being a DJ when:

a) It is made to the spouse
b) It is made to someone else but the spouse can hear
c) It is made to someone else out of the spouse's earshot but word gets back to the spouse
d) It is made in strict confidence to someone other than the spouse and the spouse never finds out
e) It is muttered in the shower and the spouse overhears (unintentionally heard)
f) It is written in a MB forum post
g) It is a thought that is never spoken
h) It is a response to the spouse asking, "why do you feel that way?"
i) all of the above

What say ye?

Please stick to one thread.

The two things I said above were both describing the same problematic conversation. OK so let me work through this one real slow just so I can be totally clear. The behavior between the two cited that makes me uncomfortable would be the smiling five minute eye contact because just her talking is not an issue. So that more specific thing (smiling eye contact) is what I would say. Correct?

Ugh. I was hoping that a more generalized statement would suffice. Or a baseball sign or something.

SHE should be "moderating" and eliminating any behavior that hurts her spouse. You don't have the power to "moderate" her, only she does. If she continues practicing hurtful behavior, knowing it hurts you, then she is trying to control you. Control is a violation of the policy of joint agreement. This entire issue comes under the POJA.


It's not healthy for marriage to hurt your spouse. Anything that comes before your marriage will eventually come between you.

I don't see how this thread has anything to do with the other thread, other than a purely coincidental mention in that thread. It seems to me that it would be confusing to introduce this separate topic in that other thread.

Is there some reason you are seeing that I'm not why they should have been combined?

Please stick to one thread so people can follow your story. Threads have been merged. Thank you.

I have no idea what you're referring to. Care to explain?


Yes, she has plainly stated for example that her "basic politeness" to a man was more important that any feeling of offense that I would feel from her expressing that politeness.


Please clearly define "mistake". I would like to understand.

Would you be willing to consider that my motivation in going back and forth in a thread is not to debate? I couldn't care less if you "beat" me in a "debate". It is not about who wins for me. It is about understanding. I actually dislike debates. I am just asking questions trying to understand what you are saying.

If I didn't care about your opinion, I would not be asking clarifying questions. If you want to call me "slow", that's fine. But I am not trying to debate anyone.

The EP you should be concentrating on is to avoid going to places where flirtations can even occur.

Absolutely. Always hear the current day and started a while back going into the archives. I am back to Nov 2015. Why?

Like, out of the house?! Azurite just stated that to me this morning. There IS no place out there without men. And they often come HERE. (She was talking about the exterminator, husband that may come over with a wife who is visiting, etc.)

I'm sorry, y'all but I don't see how this is reasonable, as I said in previous posts.

If the only situation was parties or some limited social situation I'd be totally on board with what you are saying.

I am pretty sure I've heard Harley say that limiting the wife from social settings involving men is not a healthy situation. Period.

Does she flirt with ALL men all the time? Or is it only in social situations? Then, yes, you would want to eliminate those situations.


He has not ever said that. He has said to implement extraordinary precautions to prevent an affair and to avoid doing anything that makes your spouse unhappy. Again, you don't have the power to "limit" your wife from doing anything. You are not her poppa daddy. She can CHOOSE to have a happy marriage with you or not by eliminating behavior that hurts you. In a loving marriage, spouses do not hurt each other.