And there's nothing CUTE about psychoanalyzing your wife. It's disrespectful.

What is there to agree or disagree with? We know what it looks like when somebody psychoanalyzes their spouse and you don't. You are just like most of us when we came to this forum, and just like most men. This thing is completely invisible to you, and we are trying to make it visible.

So we're going to show you each and every data point we get, and to some extent you are going to have to connect the dots in order to understand.

Maybe you can't say why something is disrespectful right now, but if you work at this, some time from now you will be able to. But not if you leave it up in the air as to whether or not you "accept" that your statements are disrespectful.

This is a massive problem, my friend, and you are shooting at the rescue helicopters.

Exactly. There's nothing special about this situation.
What is she doing that you call flirting? Be specific, without getting into her motivations, or her past, or her intentions. What are her specific behaviors.
It needs to be more than just "she's too open." What does that mean? What is she DOING? Be specific.

When you get into analyzing her, you get disrespectful. Stick to the facts. Did she bat her eyes? Smile at the guy? Giggle? What is she doing to make you think she's flirting? And complain about THAT, and that alone.

"Honey, when you giggle with men who are talking to you, it bothers me." And leave it at that. Move on, and let her decide what to do about it.

You might find this list helpful that I've compiled of ways to engage in disrespectful judgments. These are ways that I found that I or other people on the forum or on the radio show did things that their spouse found disrespectful.

sarcasm
criticism
judgment: stating that their perspective is wrong
"should"
lecturing/attempting to educate
gestures, facial expressions, body language
expressing surprise or shock at an opinion or feeling or belief
saying that something is "obvious" (in other words, you "should" realize this or "should" know it)
disrespecting your spouse's feelings instead of accepting the fact that they do feel that way

guilting, shaming
hyperbolizing
always/never
exaggerated words
scolding
name-calling, labelling
saying or doing something you know your spouse identifies as disrespectful

comparisons: if I had done such a horrible thing as you, I'd be doing more to make up for it

defensiveness

minimizing -- "just" -- you just say that because ... [Translation: I don't have to address your complaint.]
psychoanalyzing your spouse
explaining away your spouse's feelings or complaints

attributing motivations
blaming, fault-finding
expecting them to read your mind


I statements may help, but are not an excuse for a disrespectful judgment:
I feel like (DJ)
I feel unloved.
I feel like you don't love me.

A great example that is obviously still happening is you saying your wife has an "independent mindset." Dr. Harley explained to you why you should let this go and just focus on doing the program - the mindset will change after she falls in love with you. But she can't fall in love with you because you are so disrespectful.

This is a gigantic elephant in the room and when we try to talk to you about it you ask us how many toes the elephant has and if a professional has certified that there is an elephant and accuse us of making cute remarks. In other words, you argue with us. And then when we try to tell you what a problem that is, you argue with us about whether or not you are arguing!

Has anybody ever told you you do this? If so many people are talking to you about it, do you think it could be a real problem?

Do this: just take note of the things your wife or we or Dr. Harley or your coach says is disrespectful, and filter those things out. Later you can learn exactly why they are disrespectful. You can even write rules for yourself on what kinds of statements to avoid (I did!) Call your Marriage Builders coach up and ask her what she thinks of this advice.

The important thing is that you learn to FILTER the things that are disrespectful. It doesn't matter if anyone proves to you that they are disrespectful or not. You can FILTER out things that are disrespectful toward your wife even without understanding why they are disrespectful. I did! I had to!

I think I see a serious problem:


When your wife does something that bothers you, pass the information about what she did that bothers you (complain), but don't "call her out."

This is what was in my head when I wrote my question to you: "I reread my post over and over and I canNOT see where he is saying that I am psychoanalyzing. I feel like I am providing the same kind of info as MANY people have done on the radio show and here on the forum where one spouse is having to speak for two!"

This is what I heard in your response: "Erastis, we know in our knower what you don't know. And you don't know because you don't have a knower and we can't be specific with you because you don't have a knower yet. But we're trying to help you to get a knower."

Someone please hand me a knower! I want to know!

Seriously, your comment about invisible is SO TRUE. YES. I have scales on my eyes when it comes to judgment. I know that I have scales. More specifically, the nature of thought that a person has who is NOT disrespectfully judgmental is foreign to me. It is opposed to my current, habitual thought patterns. What I am needing is a bridge for getting from one form of thought (current) to the non-judgmental thought.

Harley has given me a bridge and I am working on implementing it. But I get to spots where the bridge appears to have holes in it (my lack of understanding). That is why I am HERE. On the forum.

There are two things about me that I believe would be useful for people on this forum to know, who are "trying to help me".

1) I have a skillset that requires a highly aggressive, relentless form of analytical thought. I am very good at this. Yes, people actually pay good money for it. It has been ingrained in me and developed for several decades. I am rewarded nicely for the results of what I produce in work because of this skillset and thought process in which I practically live at work.

Let me give this example: For any of you who have dug a clay ditch using a pick axe and shovel in the hot sun, it requires a great deal of fortitude and aggressiveness to get that job done. The problems we are faced with in my line of work involve a similar line of mental aggressiveness and problem solving.

Now, I have come to learn (the very hard way) that this does NOT work in a personal relationship. And surely not in an intimate relationship. LOL. Not at all. The bridge for me to get from my default state of mind to thinking in a non-judgmental way, I believe, is apparently a much more difficult bridge to cross than for many people. Other people around me may not get the concept of DR easily, but it seems to come a heck of a lot easier than it does for me. This is all based on my observations. You can say, "Nah, we see guys like you all the time." I would doubt that. Ask Azurite.

2) The other thing I have observed in myself is my tendency to work out problems in a form of appears to you as a "debate". This is a subset of #1. As part of working out problems we are often working on "black box" situations. Very stubborn black boxes. It requires, again, a very aggressive process of coming at the problem from every possible angle, relentlessly and systematically. And documenting it all until test results are matching up with theory. Sometimes it is a grueling process.

What annoys me a great deal is when others around me are "getting it" when it comes to something like DJs, and they don't understand why I'm not "getting it" as quickly as they think I should, or as easily as I should. They suggest that I follow some line of thought that got them there and don't understand why I don't achieve the same result with their method.

Example: One of those 3D prints. If I have 10 people around me saying, "Wow! Isn't that amazing! Look at that! So cool!" Except when I look at it, I see nothing but a jumbled mess. I stare at it for hours. Finally there is someone in the crowd that is a similar thinker to me. He simply says, "Hold it 10 inches from your nose. Cross your eyes. Slowly uncross them while you adjust the distance and you'll see it." BINGO. Now I get it. THAT PERSON HELPED ME. And the kicker is that even though I was able to see the 3D, I may have to practice it 100 times to be able to consistently see it as quickly as others can.

Look folks. I am the guy who pulls up to a traffic light and can't keep from analyzing the setup. The control system, the sensors, the type of LEDs, the timing of the light changes, on and on. God forbid that they leave that silver control box unlocked. I might be pulling over and poking all through it.

It is not because I am defective. It is just that with DJs I am really struggling to change a deeply ingrained, opposing mindset that has served me quite well in other contexts.

To clarify, I am not saying I'm special or some unique person. But I am saying that my thought processes are not "common". I rarely come across it when looking at prospective employees (one so far). He was just as dysfunctional in some of these areas like DJ as I have been. LOL. But he's a brilliant worker in this field.


Yes. Welcome to my massive problem world (at home, anyway). I agree.

I accept that you are saying that you feel shot at. But I am telling you all that I did not intend to shoot at you. I know it doesn't make you bleed less if you get hit, but knowing that it wasn't my intention might make you feel better. I want to learn muzzle control and I am working on that. I have to learn to shut down the aggressive analysis and troubleshooting.

Now that was helpful. Thank you.

YES. Very helpful. Thank you.

Azurite and I just so happened to be talking (respectfully) about this one yesterday:

expressing surprise or shock at an opinion or feeling or belief

There are at least two ways to interpret that, and she said she sees those two ways also. Neither of us knew what the correct interpretation is.

Example: Azurite tells me one day that she feels like getting a tattoo of Dora on her forehead. Just pops it out of the blue (pun intended). She's totally serious. Asks me how I'd feel about that.

1) I express totally involuntary shock or surprise (jaw drops, dazed look, silent stare, say "What?" even though I clearly heard her, whatever). There is no intention of being rude or ugly. I am just in shock.

2) I express disrespectful surprise or shock ("Are you nuts?", etc.)

#2 clearly won't work, but I would have thought #1 would be fine. But then you get into a complication that Azurite and I discussed. What if Azurite saw my totally involuntary reaction as disrespectful? How in the world can you NOT express involuntary surprise or shock at some things?

This is actually something that happens in our life in a less dramatic way. Sometimes when Azurite and I discuss some issue, I may be genuinely surprised by something she says that is a departure from who I know her to "be". If there is even the slightest hint of this in my tone, facial expressions, etc., I get hit with the DJ card. I do not feel like that is reasonable.

I have absolutely no problem with Azurite's right to want a Dora tattoo on her forehead. She is entirely 100% entitled to that opinion/belief/desire. But that would be a bit shocking to me, and especially if I didn't see the declaration coming, it would probably result in an expression of "shock or surprise".

What is your understanding on this type of DJ?

First, generally I understand you are right.

Hopefully what you are saying is that if I will just follow the plan, that I will cause Azurite to cross the romantic threshold. This in turn will create an opening, so to speak, or a motivation for her to fix her IB. THAT I can understand and THAT gives me hope.

The problem is that because the IB have happened since day one, and because they hurt, I have little belief in my mind that Azurite being in love with me will make much difference in her CHOICE to stop IB. According to what she told me last night, she believes she was in VERY in love with me from day one through the first three years, and in love for the most part for the next eight or so (while IB was happening). I made her aware of IB that hurt me back then. Her love for me did not motivate her to change then.

So, Markos, the problem for me is that I am having to take the part about IB relief totally on faith. And yes, it is hard. I am hoping that her awareness is what will make the difference this time (awareness by her going through the MB material).


Has anybody ever told you you do this? If so many people are talking to you about it, do you think it could be a real problem?[/quote]

Actually, very few people. Harley, Azurite and you. LOL. Somehow I have gotten along with suppliers and clients in business without much issue, but I can see my behavior more in personal life. There have been a couple of cases where I've driven people nuts and I'm sure they were just trying to be non-judgmental in not telling me to quit. Also, I think my "politeness" guard tends to be down with Azurite - that old familiarity thing where we foolishly show our loved ones less restraint than a total stranger. So even though people aren't telling me what a debater I am all the time, you are correct. I know it is a problem.


Practical. I like that. I find that very useful. Thanks.

I think you run the risk of wearing out the folks who are most invested in you and your marriage, like you wore out your wife. Sure, ask questions, but be careful to be doing what you need to do in the process. The knower part is a result of consistent change in actions and habits. Are you taking your wife on 4 4 hour dates a week, with the goals of meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs? Is your goal in Conversation to get to know her better?

I wish you consistency and thoughtfulness in your efforts.

HI! Being in a family of over analyzers... maybe this might help.

You have to stop thinking of WHY> you never have to understand or know why Az is doing what she is doing.

You don't need to figure out intentions, right/wrong or talk about ANYTHING but concrete actions and NEVER the FEELINGS of her actions.

"It bothers me when you stare into another man's eyes for more than 3 seconds when you speak to them."

"It bothers me when you talk to a man for more than 5 minutes"

"It bothers me when you speak to more than one man before coming and checking in with me"

You see, just the actions of exactly what she is doing.

You guys have spent to much time thinking of why she does things instead of just addressing the thing she does!

It isn't right or wrong to speak to a man-or leave socks by the bed- or whatever else might bother you.

The point is -certain actions bother and hurt you and she needs to know what they are without any comments about why.

Even telling me she has independent behavior doesn't mean a thing to me.

You could never ever use that word again and solve the problem by picking the top 3 ACTIONS and start addressing it.(not feeling, thoughts or other words) that she does that bothers you (and you classify as IB, but she doesn't need to know that)
"It bothers me when you spend money without talking to me."
"It bothers me when you make plans without talking to me"
"It bothers me when......
what is it she does? I have pages and pages of words from you without one that is useful in knowing what actions she does that is independent!!!!

Is this helpful at all?

*And again, as far as the shock and bewilderment of a tattoo Dora- this happens often-really???.*

If she finds your facial expressions disrespectful, take personal notes on the exact actions you are doing (do you frown a certain way, turn your head, fold your arms etc and stop doing them) She needs to give you a list!

Yikes. You just hit on a big motivator for me to do things like eliminate LBs and learn how to learn from others without debating or running them ragged. Two of my children clearly have some or all of these thought patterns in a big way. As you implied, I believe it is genetic. If I can just figure this out I can teach them the methods and save them a world of hurt...


Yes. I understand what you are saying and I know it's true. I am starting to see the light. Hopefully it isn't a train.

Analyzing myself, I think one reason I struggle so much with it in the area of her conversation with other men is because there are SOOOO many of these concrete actions that you speak of that can happen. Having to convert observations to concrete, especially when the observations are subtle, can be overwhelming. I know I have to learn to do it, though. And I understand that when I go to her when it's happening that it doesn't need to be a list. Probably only one.

Speaking of lists, using website lists of observed flirting body language, behaviors, spoken words, etc. as a starting point, I actually sat down yesterday and compiled a list of all of the CONCRETE things I have observed in her conversations with men that have bothered me. I just wanted to see if the number of concrete things were as daunting as they seemed. Yep. My list had 55 ITEMS. Good grief.

I also made a list of things she does during conversations with other men that makes me feel "honored, respected, loved, reassured, confident in our relationship. That list had 19 items.

Azurite has been asking for me to provide specific examples, so I shared the lists with Azurite. She said it was helpful and confirmed that I did not commit any DJ in the lists.


That statement throws me for a loop. I know it shouldn't but it does. It isn't that I think she shouldn't talk to men. On one level that is obviously not a right/wrong issue. But I am getting blinded by the hurt that has happened in her course of doing that. It's kind of like this: No, it is obviously not right/wrong whether I leave my socks next to the bed. And then my brain searches and says, "Wait a minute! There would be if you did it in the process of sleeping with another woman!". And the basic issue of socks on the floor being right/wrong is tainted by association. So clearly, the association of a perfectly innocent thing (her speaking to a man) mixed with hurt is making it challenging to think straight about that issue. Weird.



Yes, tremendously. Between the MB course, forum responses, MB radio, Harley's comments and Azurite's help, things are beginning to dawn on me. So thankful. This is life changing.


Dora often? Maybe a time or two a year, learning something about her that is a MAJOR departure from who I thought I knew. Other things of a smaller nature? Pretty frequently.

If I understand Harley's position on this, if I am thinking the DJ thought internally but not speaking it, and if I am doing things like raising a brow or have a look of shock, I think he says that is OK. Not ideal but OK. That it is "in the DNA" of some people to be DJ internally. Anyone feel free to chime in on that.

THANK YOU.

There's not just faith - there's the data point that it worked for me.

BTW, in your post to Dr. Harley this morning, this really jumps out at me:

"i agree that my DJs are an issue but"

I really wouldn't expect things to get much better until you make some major progress in eliminating the DJs.

Express respect for Azurite's opinions when they differ for yours! For example, when she wants to prioritize family time over UA, express respect for that. Make some love bank deposits that way. Her emotions are telling her to run away from you and that's not wrong.

I've heard Dr. Harley say that expressions and body language can be a love buster.

If it's hurting your wife why would you look for permission from Dr. Harley to do it?

I would advise learning to calm down and take things more in stride so that if your wife makes a suggestion like this you can just calmly, casually say "Well, that would certainly be different. Do you think you'd enjoy that? I'm not sure I'd like it."

FYI turns out my wife likes some tattoos and nose rings, too, and I didn't predict that when we got married. I don't need to express shock.

I appreciate the encouragement. I'm not totally clear on the cause/effect of the data point, though.


Yes. I understand and agree that our progress is hindered by continued DJ. Therefore my efforts at trying to get through that lesson and understand it. Without understanding I couldn't implement it. I think I am finally getting there with the understanding. Next step is to get better at identifying when I actually do it. Then I can catch myself BEFORE doing it. It's all steps, right?


Markos, man, that is a good one. Banking love units by expressing respect for a differing opinion. I understood that I am not to criticize her differing opinion, but banking love by actually telling her that I respect her opinion. That's smooth.

BTW, when I said to Azurite that my understanding of MB principles was that we should be prioritizing UA before other activities, was that judgmentally worded? I tried to be careful to do that right.

Sorry to intrude here Markos.

Erastis, I would avoid conversations where you are trying to educate her on ANYTHING. Instead tell her what you would like to do by using an IWLII statement ...

"I Would Love It If we could plan our UA time as a priority over other activities. How do you feel about that?".

Doing this will let her know your wishes, without it being demanding or demeaning, and provides her an opportunity to negotiate with you.

This, BTW, is just the beginning state of negotiating with your spouse. I assume you've read this already:4 guidelines to successful negotiation

I have heard him say that as well, which is why I am confused by something different Azurite and I both remember him saying. I will have to see if Azurite remembers where it was. If memory serves, Harley's reasoning was that the woman in question was actually committing a DJ by calling out her husband's reaction to something she said/did, because it was just an expression he made. She would have had to read his mind in order to say that his expression meant something hurtful. Or something like that. Does that ring a bell?


It's not about how much rope I can have to make DJ expressions. It's about whether DJ extends to involuntary body language, for example. DJ is determined by the offended spouse, correct? So in other words, whether the offender believes it is a DJ is irrelevant. That was the general rule I understood anyway. The question is whether the offender's determination of a DJ extends to involuntary body language reactions.

Think of a national disaster that you've witnessed on TV, live. How many of us watched the unfolding of something like that on TV without being horrified? I am pretty sure at some point that my mouth was just hanging open a bit.

Mouth hanging open, cocked brow, glazed look, stiffening of the body. These types of subtle body language trigger a DJ call. Should they?




Sorry, just kidding. I hear you, and that is what I shoot for in terms of having emotions but not allowing them to rule me. I get the impression that this is what you are talking about. I am talking about the kind of reactions that are involuntary. Yes, I could learn to make my heart stop too, but I don't know that it's a reasonable thing to learn.

One can get in the habit of stopping "involuntary" gestures when you are aware they are lovebusters. If your spouse tells you a certain look or gesture is a lovebuster, you simply stop it. You don't have to talk it to death or analyze it to a pulp, simply STOP IT.

That is where I would focus if I were you, erastsis. Just stop all offending behavior. Ask your wife to do the same.