That's pretty brilliant too. So instead of essentially saying, "Harley says to do this", just take the MB principle, adopt it as my own knowledge, and base a statement of my DESIRE on it. So there's no "well, the expert said to do this...", or "don't you remember this", or "this is the right way" type of stuff that is implied. OK. Man this is going to be a challenge. So. Unintuitive. for. me.

OK I have a question then. Let's just say I highly suspect that Azurite has missed in her own learning that Harley in fact did say that we need a minimum of 15 hours of UA/week, for example. If I do what you are saying, as far as she's concerned she does not see anything in that except my DESIRE to do 15 hours. If she honestly doesn't remember him saying that, it may not even raise her curiosity about why I'm suggesting 15 hours. Yet that is a critical MB principle.

Am I totally at the mercy of her own learning in that situation? Or is there any other option that I have available that would be respectful? I guess it almost sounds like you may be saying to forget about respectful persuasion. Forgive me if I'm reading too much into what you wrote.

Thanks for taking the time to post on the thread. All of the different perspectives really help me figure things out.

You spend a lot of time focusing on right vs. wrong.
In a marriage, you cannot give yourself permission to determine what is right and what is wrong. You see things one way, she sees things another. And that's it. When you start making value judgements, you start getting disrespectful. You are not right, and she is not wrong. You simply see the world differently. If you're going to make it, you're going to have to force yourself to change your thinking on this one.

You do not have to understand DJs to stop them. In fact, you may never completely understand them. It's simple: She's says it's a DJ when you do something, so you change your behavior. You don't have to understand why -- in fact, demanding to know why it's a DJ can be a DJ in of itself. Respect her when she tells you that you have been disrespectful. "I'm sorry I hurt you when I did that. I don't want to DJ you -- what would have been a better way for me to respond?" You don't need to get into the whys and completely understand how she sees things and how she feels. You just need to change your behavior.

A lot of times, understanding comes later. But even if it doesn't, you will still be protecting her from your lovebusters.


You are trying to educate her. Which is disrespectful. It is not your place to educate her. She's got a coach that can do that. Dr. Harley can do that. WE can do that. BUT YOU CAN'T.

You can express your desire to have UA instead of FC on any given night. But, remember, FC is a very high need for her. She values it highly. If you try to educate her that your desire for UA is more important than her desire for FC, you will be lovebusting her severely. You're not just educating her, you're telling her that her emotional need for FC is not that important. She will feel threatened. She's going to want to get away from you even more as a result.

UA is essential, but so is FC. Schedule enough time during the week to you have wiggle room for UA, and still be able to meet the need for FC. Don't try to replace FC with UA -- she doesn't like that. Refine your schedule so that you don't even have to think about doing that.

The mens dinner is in the past, as well as whether or not you should have canceled it for UA time. Leave it there, and move forward with a refined schedule that will take into account lost UA time.

You can DJ with your body language. Period. Expressions can be DJs. She doesn't have to read your mind to know that your body language hurts her. So, cut it out. Stop expressing in a way that hurts her.

Yes.

Yes. They can all be DJs. And she's the only one who can tell you if it is a DJ or not, not you.

BTW, asking the question "Should they?" is also a DJ. Don't debate her if she feels it's a DJ. You would do well to avoid the word "should" from here on out.

You are hyperbolizing. Which is also a DJ.

A beating heart is a far cry from a shocked look with your mouth hanging open. It is far less likely to be seen as a DJ for your heart to continue beating. And your are far more likely to learn how not to react so shocked than you are to learn how to stop your own heart.

Don't hyperbolize. If she feels your mouth hanging open is disrespectful, learn to keep it shut.

Don't tell me it can't be done. Markos has changed his reactions to a shocking situation because of how his reactions affected me. It can be done, it just takes work. Don't look for a way out of doing the work -- MB won't give it to you.

It is not your place to educate your spouse.
She is not stupid, and she has brilliant teachers that YOU HAVE PAID TO EDUCATE BOTH OF YOU. They are not incapable of teaching her, and she is not incapable of learning.
Stop trying to educate your wife. It is not your place, and you do more damage to your marriage when you try to educate her than if she were to remain ignorant.

Harley quote from the private forum:


So, he never actually refers directly to a raised brow, so to speak, in that post. He is talking about her having a problem with what the guy is thinking.

I'll just have to ask Harley. To me, the idea of not involuntarily doing some SUBTLE body language would be similar to saying that I shouldn't flinch or say "umph" when hit.

Maybe y'all are all zen masters when it comes to this sort of thing. The funny thing is that most people I know would not call me reactive, with the exception of a few who know me closely. I have always been described as stoic or unemotional. Made fun of, actually for being that way a few times.

BTW, the type of body language reactions I have been talking about are not like some drama queen that's doing ridiculous, exaggerated body language in response to shocking or surprising revelation on Oprah.

I see posts like this as more exhausting exercises in mental masturbation. It still comes back to the same principle: if it bothers your spouse, stop doing it. You don't have to talk something to DEATH in order to achieve that.

Stop talking and start DOING. [or not doing in some cases]

Erastis, if your marriage is going to make it then you are going to have to stop trying to figure out how you can keep DJing your wife.

Your body language hurts her. So stop the body language. Stop trying to find loopholes. You have a SERIOUS problem with DJs, and it's hurting your wife. Why would you try to find an excuse to keep hurting her? Do you want her to be in love with you? If you do, CHANGE your body language.

Searching for and finding a supposed loophole (and it isn't a loophole, btw) that proves you don't have to change what your wife feels is disrespectful only hurts her worse and will only drive her further away.

That doesn't matter. What matters is how your wife feels.

It doesn't matter. What matters is how you make your wife feel. Do you want her to be in love with you, or not?

You seem to enjoy talking quite a bit and take pride in that. I don't know why since it seems to be a distraction from taking direct action. I would suggest that putting that same energy into changing offensive behavior would result in a great marriage.

All Dr. Harley is telling this woman is to not react to a DJ with a DJ. That's it. He is not telling her not to change her behavior, or that her husband doesn't have to change his behavior.

Change the behavior that is hurting your wife. She doesn't have to be able to read your mind to know that what you are doing is hurting her.

Here is something you could see might help Az.
So something my father did to help change his behavior to my mom was smile. Anything else was disrespectful to her and he was very stoic and an over thinker.
Not a huge cheesy smile but he practiced making a pleasant smile when she would speak with him and if she said something unusual he practiced smiling really big instead of dropping his mouth open.
He then learned to do this with us kids and it really helped everyone out.

He still acted the same to others, but focusing on something to do rather than what not to do helped my dad out tremendously.

Of all the words written here, yours are the most... large. You remind me of my Dad yelling at me. When I had had enough, I finally told him how inconsiderate it felt. His reply? "That's just the way I am". Everyone is not the way you are.

I have found this thread to be very helpful. And appreciate the efforts of those who did help. I welcome your help. If it isn't your cup of tea, by all means, yell elsewhere.

They are LARGE in the hopes you will LISTEN and PAY ATTENTION. Did you?

Let me put this another way, this thread is 3 pages of talk, talk, talk, talk, and the advice has not changed. All of the advice you need is in that simple, clear sentence. I wanted to make sure you saw it.

Erastis,

Can you think about why she felt the need to make that large for you?

Some people tend to think in either/or and back/white.

Nobody is trying to hurt your feelings here or attack you.

They are all responding to your request for
help. One problem I'm noticing is that it isn't clear from how you interact, whether you are wanting guidance or a debate. You want to settle in on right vs. wrong. It is uncomfortable for you to be left unsettled. But emotions are not that defined or finite.

TThe reality is that in a marriage, black and white must accommodate each other to become a composite grey. Either/Or become Both. Left and Right become a zigzagged, 3 legged race and Ocean/Mountain create the beautiful, unpredictable landscape.

How you just responded to someone showing care to you, (Melody) is probably how you respond to your wife. Ouch. You saw the Either (she is yelling at you) but can you look for the "Or" in her post?

We've heard that from you many times. How many times has your wife heard it?

You added the word "just" and left off the other parts. The parts where I said, "But I want to change. And I have changed some things that we have worked on. And I am changing."

Of course, Azurite is the ultimate decider of that. As long as she tells me I am making progress at least at a reasonable pace then that is all that matters to me.

The message that some of you are sending is: but you haven't completed your change since your last post! Stop it! Just stop it!

Really? So you are all perfect now? And it happened in the blink of an eye? What does YOUR spouse say about that?

The message I hear from Harley is: habits take time to change and it will be awkward at first. Understand the plan. Stick with it. The understanding of the plan is what I have been working on. I really don't feel like I have been really getting traction on applying that understanding until maybe yesterday.

Erastis, do you want help or not? If you want help, trust us when we give you suggestions.

I didn't add the word "just." I copied and pasted from your post.

Throughout this thread, your theme has been "This is the way I am. This is how I do things."

As far as the parts about wanting to change, having changed ... I haven't seen any of that. There's a bunch of talk about how you are, and the way you do things, but little talk about how you are changing for your wife.

Disrespectful judgements are more than habits -- they are abuse. And, yes, you can stop them now. If you decide to. You can decide today not to ever say or do anything that your wife feels is disrespectful.

Will you slip up from time to time while you learn? Probably. Will you get better at it over time. Possibly. But not if you are spending your time debating whether or not your actions "should" be classified as DJs. If you spend your time debating, and justifying, you won't get any better at it. And your wife will continue to suffer.

If I were her, reading this thread, I would not have much hope at all.

It took us 3 years. I kicked markos out. We almost ended up divorced. Three years of abuse, neglect, an affair, hate, loathing, separation, tears, pain ... do you really want to go down that road??

Dr. Harley says it should take 2-3 months. Stop the DJs, and you've got a good shot at that.

Don't be a drama queen. Did you know Dr Harley quotes that "STOP IT" video on his radio show? He loves it. The message I hear from Dr Harley is when you are doing offending behavior is: STOP IT. He doesn't say to take your sweet time and drag it out.

Talking a problem to death does not solve problems. Changing behavior DOES. You could be focusing on changing your offensive behavior instead of wasting time talking about it.