Don't know that I'd call her an "alcoholic" in the text book sense, at least not that I'm aware of. Though we do seem to go through way more wine than I can account for.

But another item I'll bring up tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestion.

Nope, you can't discuss love busters in the heat of the moment. This is a fairly well known MB fact. I got it from Kim, Dr. Harley's coach in the online program.

You basically shut down her chance to give you complaints! You won't have anything to use to motivate her if you're not going to accept her complaints and make a plan to do something about them.

Please talk with Dr. Harley about it, too.

With equal respect, I've been through the program, talked with Dr. Harley and Steve and Kim for countless hours, listened to hundreds of hours of radio shows, and have read every book several times. I know what this program teaches. You're the one still learning.

fair enough. will keep an open mind.

Agree with all this - very insightful, and definitely accurate that neither of us have the "lovin feeling".

Trying to think about "what I did" in the context of her EN...

A lot of our "quality time" together was probably more in a party mode. We would go out dancing, stay up drinking... I kinda did a lot of things that people do in their 20's that you really don't want to do in your 40's (and probably shouldn't have been doing in your 20's) unless you want to end up poor, morbidly obese, unhealthy, and/or unemployable.

One of her big complaints used to be that "I'm no fun anymore". I think she still feels that way, but doesn't say it anymore, especially after a big fight when she said that at a dinner part with a bunch of friends. I think it's unfair, and the complete opposite of what other people / friends tell me (and told her when she said that). We just have very different ideas about appropriate behavior as mature, Christian adults, and I have life goals that don't align with my old lifestyle, and she doesn't set goals.

I was good though about affection and admiration.

For me, her AOs have always been present. I even had a couple of friends try to warn me before we got married about it. They've gotten worse over the years. That combined with neglect of my EN and massive AOs and other LBs, I've definitely pulled back some, but still think I make a conscious effort to do the things she says she needs. Just now, she doesn't receive them as loving actions.

Thank you all for the feedback!

I genuinely appreciate the time you each volunteered to read what's going on and try to offer answers and insights. This is an extremely difficult time in my life, that often feels like my efforts in the marriage are totally pointless and wasted.

I know many of you have been through the same, and some much worse, so having feedback from those of you that have come successfully through to the other side is extremely valuable and encouraging. Please keep the feedback coming if you feel so inclined, positive or negative.

How did it go with Steve today? Did you raise the issue of her alcoholism?

I did raise the issue... I don't know if he talked with her or not about it. I told him I was concerned about it before she conferenced into the call, and he said he would bring it up with her, but it did not come up in our joint call. It did not seem appropriate for me to bring it up during our joint call.

We did talk about her AOs & DJs together and 1-on-1, and the message I got back was essentially that he thinks I may have to be willing to tolerate it for a time, and could try responding by a positive statement of some sort, request to not have AO/DJ, followed by another positive.

In the ensuing 24 hours, that strategy is not helping at all. So, she's not engaged, and she's continuing her AOs / DJs and blaming me for them. I'm beyond frustrated...

I find your posts quite frustrating to read, because you seem to fire them off emotionally, and often, as a result, do not answer the question asked.

I asked you wuhat you did to meet her ENs to make her fall in love with you, in the period leading up to your marriage. You mentioned going out dancing, but then said " I kinda did a lot of things that people do in their 20's that you really don't want to do in your 40's (and probably shouldn't have been doing in your 20's) unless you want to end up poor, morbidly obese, unhealthy, and/or unemployable. ".

Most of that is not telling me what you did that made her fall in love with you. It is telling me how you spent your mis-spent youth, but it is not identifying what you did for her that made her fall in love with you. The point of my question was to see whether you could do whatever it was again today, to regenerate her love for you.

The one thing you did mention was dancing, and then later you said "One of her big complaints used to be that "I'm no fun anymore"." This should be a huge clue that you need to take the woman dancing, and you need to do other things, alone with her out on dates, that she would find fun. This doesn't have to mean (and shouldn't mean) downing pints and smoking "stuff" in seedy clubs, but it could mean taking dancing lessons, or going to dance halls where people do not drink and smoke stuff.

You said "I think she still feels that way, but doesn't say it anymore, especially after a big fight when she said that at a dinner part with a bunch of friends. I think it's unfair, and the complete opposite of what other people / friends tell me (and told her when she said that). "

What happened with this "big fight"? Did she say that in front of friends, and you let her have it? So you do the fighting too?

But also: why do you reject this, and say it's "unfair"? She is telling you how she sees you. She is giving you a valuable piece of information that you could be using to change your behaviour and boost your marriage. If you are going to judge whether her complaints are fair, and then not act on them, you have no hope of improving this.

So now she hasn't said that since the big fight. What HAS she said that she wants you to do for her?

holy cow - sensing a lot of anger at me Sugarcane, and a lot of false assumptions. I'll try to address your questions, but understand I was trying to answer what I did to meet her EN originally, but I really don't exactly know. If my posts irritate or anger you, please ignore them and don't respond. I don't want or need, nor will I participate in some online forum spat. Some of my response is often an effort to be brief and not post too much irrelevant information.

Some things I suspect I did to meet her emotional needs:

- Went dancing at bars / clubs
- Complimented her, and how she looks and encouraged her to dress nicely
- Helped take care of her financially
- Spent time together at dinners, movies, etc.
- Was pleasant, fun, life of party
- In really good physical shape
- We did not live together until married, but I kept my place very clean and put together and I think she saw that as a positive
- Cooked her dinner occasionally
- Introduced her to a lot of new life experiences (Travel, surfing, fine wine, friends, etc.)

As to the fight, we're at a dinner with a group of friends. We're all laughing and having a good time in a restaurant, and one my friends comments that I'm the most fun to be around. She responds with "No He's not... He's not fun anymore - he doesn't like to do anything".

I DID NOT respond in the restaurant. My friends did, trying to keep it jovial and defended me. When we left to get in the car, I privately said to her that was really hurtful, embarrassing and an inappropriate time to make that type of comment. It made it uncomfortable and awkward for everyone there. She was drunk, blew up and yelled at me all the way to our next destination (movie). She complained about me and cried to one of the wives once we arrived at the movies (separately from the other couples) and then cried through much of the movie as well. Some weeks later, she somewhat recognized the problem, and apologized, and has not made bad comments in front of my face.

She does however continue to be extremely critical of me to her friends and family. So much so, our group of friends recently uninvited us on a European trip this summer we were planning together because (as they explained to both of us) she too often turns the conversation with the wives to be critical of me and complain, and bring the mood down. They did not want that there to risk running the mood of the trip. Since it was a family / couples trip, we were both uninvited. One of our other friends backed out of the trip as well because he didn't want to go if I wasn't going to be there.

Her judgement of me being "no fun" is always explained by her that it's because I don't want to go dancing in clubs anymore. I've offered to do dance lessons, group dance events, etc. I just don't like going to clubs anymore, and getting drunk and staying out late. She has explicitly said if it doesn't happen in a bar / club, she doesn't want to go dancing... therefore, I'm not fun. In fact, we even went out dancing at a bar for a date 2 weeks back, in an effort on my part to do something she would like. She promised we would leave by 10 and not drink too much. She wasn't ready to leave at 10, begged me to stay longer and we got home at midnight and had too much to drink... exactly what I wanted to avoid.

We have completed our EN questionnaires. I have a specific plan I'm working on and specific tasks based on exactly what she shared she needed from me.

We still do most of the things on the list above as well.

But, she's not doing the same. She scheduling all my open time away from work, away from me or busy with family or friends. After she asked me about my plans / work schedule today, I calmly asked her "What's your plan today" and she blew up and got angry. I was trying to meet the need of IC, which I also tried to explain and was told I was "playing games" and got a lecture about what she thought the question really meant. This was AFTER I apologized and explained that I definitely did not mean to offend and was merely trying to have a conversation.

Yesterday, I politely asked "would you mind helping me find the Neosporin. It's not a problem if not, and I don't need you to help if it will upset you in any way, I'm just not sure where to look". Again, attempt to not make SD, communicate with care and respect. She did help, couldn't find it, then got mad at me for asking her to help.

She's blown up at me for asking things like "How can I help you?" and "Do you know where my wallet is?"

So, yeah I do get frustrated and angry, and emotional and what I see as a AO, DJ and SD on a consistent basis when I'm doing everything she says she wants me to. The responses are disproportionate and she never asks me if I mean something a certain way, she just reacts to me with anger because she assumes my motivations are bad.

One more note on this specifically... this is another component to the "no fun". I ask her if we can plan to do things like dates, vacations, watching a movie, etc. without alcohol. That often makes her mad, she calls me controlling, and says I'm not fun. According to her, a date (at night) or vacation without alcohol is no fun. I explain that indicates a problem, and that takes us right back to her calling me controlling. In all fairness, we have very, very occasionally done things like walks and yoga together without alcohol, but by in large, almost all outings include an alcohol component.

The more I write on this, the it seems markos may really be on to something critical with the alcoholism. I'm fairly certain, if I told her stop drinking or we're splitting up, she would choose the alcohol.

Been miserably married 15 years.

one of my recurring themes with my wife is that she gets defensive and angry whenever I share a feeling... for example, I want to buy something, or I would really appreciate it if you could do x around the house, or I would like some time to sexually connect...

By her own admission, I've been good the last couple of months and relationship from her perspective is better. From my perspective, it's only "better" when I don't share a desire or feeling. She also admits to sexual aversion and is somewhat following the plan to overcome for the last week or so, even though she had committed to doing this months ago. As soon as I share a feeling or express a desire, she gets defensive and angry. She uses language that blames me for her feelings, and her inability to address my ENs. And she says I'll never be satisfied.

She says she wants to follow MB, but she won't make time to negotiate, she doesn't agree with POJA, she won't schedule time for UA, and she doesn't believe that I should share complaints. She takes any sharing of my feelings as attacks (see examples above).

I feel she puts my ENs as less legitimate, and sets the expectation that my ENs can only truly come to the forefront when she feels safe and has her ENs met, then maybe mine can have a priority. I think both should run congruently.

We did talk to Steve a few months back, and he said she was so sensitive I needed to put my desires and ENs to the side for while for her to heal. I have and she still really isn't progressing meaningfully to me to put my ENs at the front.

Is it time to just bail?

Can you give a recent example each of these?

What did you want to buy?

What did you want her to do around the house?

"I would like some time to sexually connect"...wow. Not exactly sweet talk.

I read your previous thread - you early should stick to one thread, when the subject is substantially the same - and I can see the ways in which your marriage has been miserable. What I don't think ever got a clear answer to was why your wife was not motivated to make things better. Do you think she is as miserable as you are? What does she get out of living like this?

The other thing I saw was that she is an alcoholic. Has she stopped drinking?

I thought I'd write a quick update for what's it's worth.

Long story short, we are in the divorce process. I filed a couple weeks ago.

She came across these posts a few weeks back and was extremely offended that I'm miserable and says it just shows that I "already have 1 foot out the door". I tried to explain it in the context of not seeing a path where we're working together, and that this won't get better if I'm on the only one willing to follow the MB guidelines. She just couldn't get past and was very angry that I posted I was miserably married for 15 years.

I also did end up a couple weeks prior to filing, tell her that she needed to stop drinking for at least a period of time (6 months or so) to allow room and time to see if we can heal. I offered to stop drinking with her to work on this together. But made clear to her stopping drinking was non-negotiable.

She got angry, said that was controlling of me (hampering her as person) and she was generally more rude than normal ever since. I offered her time to consider it, even went on a 1k mile road trip with to visit her family for Thanksgiving because she wanted to do that.

For almost 2 months, I also explicitly and physically walked away from arguments and said I was not going to engage in arguments while she was having an angry outburst and calling me names (anti-social, miserable, jerk, controlling, anal, etc.)

In the end, it sucks, but between the constant, constant angry outbursts, resentment and anger of my expression of wants / needs, seeming hatred towards me, an inability to forgive or accept my apologies, and her unwillingness to even try following MB or stop drinking, I did not see that continuing in the marriage is viable.

P.S. Sugarcane, just for context, not that it really matter to answer questions, but in short...

1. 1 example - she recently blew up at me because I bought a $23 scooter for our son for Christmas.
2. One thing I've asked her to do around the house is around order... I'm very orderly, and really can't stand messes. She leaves piles of papers, multiple piles in every room in the house. I ask her to narrow piles to one area and hide it so it's not constantly in my view and disruptive to me. She gets angry at that request and says I should just learn to let things go.
3. Sexually connect was HER suggestion. Remember, strong sexual aversion and she never voiced a safe, or acceptable way for me to approach her or when she would be available. she suggested that as one way to voice it to "allow her" time to "warm up to the idea" and prepare.

I don't know why she's not motivated, other than she just doesn't think it should take work or that I have should have expectations, needs, or desires in a marriage unless it lines up with her way of thinking.

I am very sorry to hear that you are getting divorced.
Did she file?

You sound to me like a person who tries to do things the right way. She may call that anal.
How was your marriage before your son was born? If you have been married for 15 years, it cannot all have been bad.

Is it possible that your wife is depressed? Does she not enjoy things that used to enjoy as much? Or is this just in her relationship with you that she is so dissatisfied? Some people turn their anger outwards instead of inwards when depressed.

Thanks for the kind words.

I filed. Got completely fed up.

There were some bright moments, but it's been a tough 10+ years. Got worse after our son was born. 8 therapists in 9 years.

I think she has some depression. I really wish this weren't happening but there wasn't another way.