Like most of us before we discovered Dr Harley, you've been conducting your marriage in a way that is far from Marriage Builders. However, what you did when you arrived here in July was look for a fix for the affair. Once you found that fix (or thought you had), you did little more to turn your marriage into an MB marriage, where love is created between husband and wife. You do not seem to have read very much about what MB involves since you first came here.

Indifference and dominance are killers of romantic love for women. You seem to be slowly realising that, yet in your post above, you justify indifference on the grounds that "I dont feel like I can make important decisions and be an effective leader, husband, and father if I am worried about everybodys feelings 24/7. I am not in control of how someone else feels. That is their own thing to handle. "

If you are not worried about your wife's feelings, no wonder she is out of love for you. It is impossible to have a romantic marriage with the attitude displayed in that statement. You can have the kind of marriage your grandfather probably had, where he was the ruler of the household and his wife was never unfaithful and never left him, but you cannot bring out love from your wife with your attitude to her feelings. You might be able to have a 1940s-style marriage in which your wife gives you obedience and acceptance - but the problem is that today's women have other options, and they do not need to put up with husbands who want to dominate and who justify indifference. Today, women can find other men who do not hold those views, or they can live alone and not be treated with indifference by anybody. What's the point of a woman being married if that's what she gets?

I want to reinforce what SusieQ and Elaina were trying to tell, you, that you do not seem to be hearing. There is no quick fix for the individual problems that crop up in your marriage. You cannot abandon MB when you think things are going well, and then race back here when your wife pulls the plug, looking for the magic words that will make her stay. There are no magic words. All there is is consistent behaviour that goes above and beyond to meet her emotional needs, and does not commit love busters. At the core of this is the Policy of Joint Agreement; this needs to become the cornerstone of your marriage. Do you know what that is?

When you have been meeting your wife's needs, applying POJA to everything, and committing no love busters for some months, she will feel romantic love for you.

However, if her love bank is closed to you because she has another man, your efforts will be futile. Just a day ago you told us that you were 300% certain that OM was gone, and hours later you told us that she spent the night near where he lives.

You might be 300% certain that he is gone, but we are not, for all the reasons that have been given on this thread. And as well as that, if you continue to treat your wife with indifference, she has no relationship worth keeping with you.

I understand what you are saying about no quick fix. I have never felt like this would be quick and in fact i feel the opposite. Marriage is a lifelong journey that will require a constant effort on behalf of both parties. The only "quick" thing i am seeking is a specific, case specific plan.

While I appreciate and understand your doubt of the A being over and done, I can tell you with absolute certainty that it is, in fact, over. It wasnt even a true affair anyway because it was my idea for my wife to become involved with him for the "spice" it brought to our sex life (which by my own admission was a horrible idea that i will never revisit as long as i live). Exposing the affair has little affect when it was my idea in the first place. However in my mind it became a true affair when my wife started lying to me about contacting him, etc. up to that point, as messed up as the situation seems, i never saw it as a threat. Looking back i completely see it. At this point I have done all I can to uncover and expose the "affair" to anyone that will hear it. Everyone has been informed and the majority have thrown it back in my face.

So that being the case, and it is in fact the case, where do I go from here? What is my plan? Plan A was working well a month ago when she wanted a D but was at least communicating with me. Right now we have no commubication and her emotions are off the chart. Part of me wants to try opening some line of communication that doesnt include the R but is also not about divorce/logistics/child care/money.

Please, experts and veterans, help me put together a plan that starts after exposure, because all that can be exposed has been exposed.

3 days ago I bought DD an ipad to play games and watch cartoons, etc. Today when my wife and DD left to go to her moms, DD wanted to take it with her so i walked her out to the car, buckled her in and gave her the ipad. 10 minutes later my wife comes back in the house, tossed the ipad on the table and slams the door. That all happened a couple hours ago.

Just now I text her and asked if they made it to her moms safely. She said yes, and she left the ipad because it made her feel weird. I explained that I understand why she feels that way given all the spying i did on her phone and tracking her car. I told her the ipad was an honest gift to DD and theres nothing else to it. She said the "location thing" was on and it made her feel weird so she left it here.

I dont understand her logic. She is paranoid about me tracking her. I mean, if she didnt want me to know where she was, she could just as easily leave the ipad at her moms house. She told me she is going to her moms, so whats the big deal? If she wanted to leave her moms and go somewhere else without me knowing, just leave the ipad at her moms. The paranoia smells like she is hiding something. Furthermore, thats OUR child in the car with her, and I have a right to know where my child is at all times!!!! This hit a nerve with me.

How is it even possible to help someone who makes posts like this? First off, you have the worst instincts of anyone I have ever seen here in 16 years. And secondly, you can't follow a plan. This is why I have not been posting to you; I view this as a lost cause. I don't see any way out with someone who can't follow a plan and is so clueless that he is blind.

Lets think about the post above for example. Why would your wife be so upset about the prospect of being tracked if she is only going to her mothers? Can you use your head and figure that out?

She is perfectly logical. You are not.

I've seen posters who want to sweep the A and all related issues under the rug and move on to the "cozy" parts of MB (meeting ENs and avoiding LBers) but this is probably the most extreme case I have seen to date.

What happened?

You guys have gone from helpful to completely offensive. You have ridiculed and scoffed at my efforts but offered me no tangible plan other than telling me about things I cant go back and change. I came here for help.

I will bet everything I have that she doesnt leave her mothers house, and I will bet that with anyone here willing to take my bet. I can drive down there and spend the night down the street with my camera if thats what it takes. This is about her being pissed off over my spying on her lately. Shes fed up with it and put off as far as a human being can be. She questions my motives about everything right now. Zero trust. Thats what she is feeling.

She isnt cheating at this point. Its over. She is paranoid beyond control. What about any of her behavior is logical? Someone please enlighten me. We are all strangers here on the forum so its easy to mis-interpret tone or intent. I may not know my wife all that well, but I know where she is tonight and I know she isnt dumb enough at this point to jeopardize the possible custody of our daughter in court.

I beg your pardon?

I asked you a simple question. What happened when you staked out the house last night?

How did that question merit such a spewing of anger?

You were the one who said this!

What about your behavior is logical? What about this post is logical? You can see that your wife is trying to hide something. Any rational person can see that. And what do you do? Nothing. Instead you come up with wishful thinking about what she will and won't do. You don't know where she is tonight, you only know what she has told you.

So we are right back where we started. Trying to tell you she is hiding something and you vehemently denying it. You are wasting our time, ONCE AGAIN.

If you won't take advice, then why should we waste our time and give it? I am not taking valuable time away from my - RECOVERED - marriage to give advice that will be ignored by someone who can't follow a plan.

We are not paid workers, where you should feel entitled to get something from us! We are volunteers and donate our time and effort bc we believe in MB and have seen it work in our own lives and for other posters WHEN they learn it and apply it appropriately.

I find it offensive when posters do things like: cherry pick and or ignore advice, abandon threads and then start new threads, argue when they don't like the advice they are getting, expect to be spoon fed quick solutions when they do not understand MB.

Furthermore, if you think someone is violating TOS, then click "NOTIFY".


You have been given help over and over and you just keep ignoring it and coming back with long posts that do not change your situation.

Some suggestions (some here, some a time ago in the last thread) you were given:
1) Read SAA
2) Move this thread to the SAA forum
3) Learn everything you can about Plan A, become an expert in avoiding lovebusters, etc
4) Hire a PI

Not to mention, most of these things are things we shouldn't even have to tell you! It's right in the articles and instructional threads that are FREE on this site.

You could be working on ALL of these yet you are here, arguing with us. Your problem isn't that you aren't getting advice. It's that you are NOT listening.

Her behavior is perfectly logical for someone who is cheating.
Her logic: "I don't want him to interfere with my affair, I will therefore take steps to keep him from knowing what I am doing." Perfectly logical.

yep!

The only person not being logical is you, Winslow.

You keep saying "I know it's over" "I am 300% sure it's not about OM" etc.

Feelings are not truth. There is NO WAY to know what your WW is up to unless you are right there with her. That is a FACT, period. This is something that a 12 year old would be able to accept and understand. However you keep rejecting these types of facts because of your emotions.

Part of critical thinking is setting ASIDE your emotions, listening to what IMPARTIAL 3rd parties are telling you to set upon an appropriate course of action.

Can you look back in your life and see where you rejected feedback/advice in the past because of your emotions and it lead to poor decision making? I'm certain that you can.

Well, aren't you just a peach.
The end result of all this is that you have a wife that hates you. How's that working for you?

I am aware of no religion that teaches a husband to be indifferent and uncaring of his wife. Some men have twisted their religion to support them in that, or have neglected their religions teachings altogether, but they do not support what you are doing.

Winslow,
I am sorry for your trouble.

I am disappointed that you didnt follow the advice I gave you at the end of your previous thread.

If you had, you would have realized that the theory of marriage in your post above will destroy your wife's good feelings towards you.

Everyone here truly wanted to help. Get a notebook out Winslow. In all honesty, you dont seem to be processing the advice you receive.

And stop discussing snooping methods with your wife.

my wife is not cheating or in an affair of any kind at this point. Is anyone willing to help someone out in a situation where there IS NOT an affair? My wife is burned out because her love bank has been empty for so long and now she feels it is too late to do anything about it and is pursuing divorce as we speak. I sent her a long text last night that acknowledged her feelings, took 100% responsibility for failing her as a husband, reminding her that despite my behavior, my love for her i ls true and unwavering. I thanked her for everything she has given me over 9 years, beautiful baby girl, companionship, friendship, undying and relentless optimism, a different perspective of family, and many other things. I humbly asked for her forgiveness one day, and ended it by saying if she ever could find it in her heart, i am prepared to stop at nothing to give her the life and the love that she deserves.

Her reply was that she has been fighting for our marriage for a long time. Now she is fighting for her happiness, and to please just let her have that.

Last night we had a long convo (before i sent the text message referenced in my post above) that consisted of her telling me how bad she has had it for 5 years of marriage, how miserable she has been, how she has lost herself in the process, how she just wants to put this all behind her and pick up the pieces and move on with her life. She feels like Im never going to change.
She feels like she has given all she has to give. She feels like she is trapped in a marriage that she doesnt want.

I listened to all of this with a calm demeanor, eye contact, and validation. I told her I understand how she feels and I am sorry for what I have done to make her feel that way. Had I known she was struggling all along I would have been in the trenches with her working on the marriage. She took it all upon herself and finally gave up.

She changed the subject to custody and what she wants out of a divorce. I told her I am hurt that our daughter will spend 16 years living in a broke home. She said it doesnt have to be that way, and that she wants custody of our kid so she can have one home, and I get all the visitation that I want. Then she broke down saying her biggest fear is that I will take our daughter away from her. I told her I have no intention of any such thing, and that if it were to come to a divorce, the only fair way to go about it is joint 50/50 custody. She broke down again and said she couldnt handle only having our daughter half the time and it wasnt even an option for her. My atty this morning told me otherwise. Based on my work schedule and hers, my ability to care for her and provide for her vs my wifes, and the history we have of sharing the parental role, 50/50 is where it will end up. She is chasing a dream.

So that showed me my point of leverage to bring my wife back to reality. She needs to face giving up half of our daughters childhood as the price to pay for her walking away from the marriage. Is it really worth it? This is the struggle I have faced myself. I have 100 reasons to leave, but i owe it to my daughter to work things out with her mom raise her in a happy home with two loving parents.

Any pointers on how to leverage this? I intend to contest and fight this divorce all the way to the end either way.

What sort of Plan A is it when you concentrate your attention on how to use the threats to gain leverage? It is not Plan A; it is Plan C - the one that is guaranteed to fail.

If you want to make your wife think that you are concerned about someone other than yourself, you have to act like it. I can not advise you on the best custody arrangement, but I can assure you that using custody for leverage is a mammoth love buster. You have found a great way to make your wife hate you forever.

You need to approach this with genuine concern for both your wife and your child. If you can not do that, then just keep silent on the subject and let your lawyer represent your interest at the proper time, should it ever come to that.