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Read this and listen to the clips in here. There are new clips at the end of the thread so listen to those as well. Anger Management 101
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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OK. I am grateful to you for taking the time to advise me on this. Thank you!
I have 2 questions that I feel are important, if you have the time:
1: You referred earlier to "serious anger management." I'm not sure what this is, but I would like to know more about what you mean. Any information you can share would be greatly appreciated. I mean an anger management course that teaches you relaxation techniques. Please read the thread and listen to the radio clips Brainhurts posted. This will help you tremendously in your marriage because when you get frustrated, you your brain to go straight to the solution phase and bypass the rage phase. 2: Would you say that my initial reaction to my wife's request, which I admit I didn't handle very well, is ultimately a matter of anger management? YES. If you learn to retrain your reactions to your frustrations, you will get a new lease on life. Dr Harley himself had the same problem at one time. I did too so I sympathize with you. Both you and your wife have something that most couples do not have: a willingness to solve the problems. That gives you a unique advantage here. Most couples show up here with at least one reluctant spouse. While I know you are rightfully skeptical, you are willing to try something new.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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p.s. Markos and Prisca are posters here who can help you tremendously. Markos overcame his own anger problems and they have a very passionate, happy marriage today. They are out this week.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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"First off, angry outbursts by either spouse prevents recovery. No marital problems can be solved if one spouse has even a very occasional angry outburst. Whatever the anger is related to, it makes a solution impossible." "I regard angry outbursts as the worst Love Buster. That's because it's not only physically and emotionally dangerous to the other spouse, but it completely eliminates the possibility of marital problem solving. For most couples we try to help, if they can't stop their angry outbursts, nothing else works. They can't follow the Policy of Joint Agreement and they can't follow the Policy of Undivided Attention. Without those two rules in place, there's no hope for a satisfying marriage.
So you must do everything in your power to stop all angry outbursts completely." "Early on, I came to recognize that angry outbursts are probably the most damaging thing a spouse can do in marriage. I say this in spite of my recognition that infidelity is also a very damaging behavior. But I'm often more optimistic about the recovery of a marriage that has suffered from infidelity than than recovery of a marriage that suffers from angry outbursts. The primary reason that angry outbursts just about eliminate the hope of marital happiness is that even if they are very infrequent, they prevent a couple from solving their problems because the threat always hangs over every conversation. The first guideline for marital negotiation is to make the discussion pleasant and safe, and an angry spouse fails that very first condition, making the rest of it impossible to implement. Angry spouses simply create an environment that makes it impossible to make marital adjustments. That's why I advise couples with multiple problems that include anger to overcome the anger first, and then focus on the rest of the problems later." "In some cases, I've recommended separation when one spouse doesn't take their angry outbursts seriously. For those who have not experienced physical abuse, they often feel that separation is too extreme. But I know for a fact as a clinical psychologist that angry outbursts are a form of temporary insanity, and most people who have angry outbursts cannot control what they do. In some cases, the very first angry outburst that became physical resulted in permanently injured or even death. The angry spouse has no idea that they would hurt their spouse so badly until it had already happened. Then they are grief-stricken at what took place. Angry outbursts must be completely eliminated in marriage, or the marriage is too dangerous to continue."
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Read this and listen to the clips in here. There are new clips at the end of the thread so listen to those as well. Anger Management 101Many thanks for this.
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On one of my wife's (smallpeace's) threads, FightTheFight made the following very insightful comment: [I]t is very common for a woman in the earlier stages of a relationship to be much more willing to make love and desire sex because she is motivated to have the relationship work out. It's her gift to the man she loves. However, after being married, [etc etc her husband is up sh1t creek]. Yes, this exactly describes it, and what a horrible strategy this is for any spouse who desires a long term relationship. You can call it "motivation" or "her gift" or whatever, but it's obvious what it really is: bait for the trap. Once the bait is withdrawn there is no man in the world who would be happy with the trap he's in (life with a woman who gives him the cold shoulder 6 nights a week and then drinks herself into oblivion on Saturdays so he can bang her). It's an ugly & degrading routine; it's horrible and totally inferior to their premarital relationship in every way; no man who ever lived on planet Earth ever got married for the sake of any such thing. I can't stand it and want out of it. It was a lie all along.
Last edited by Leo1000; 10/14/16 11:43 PM.
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On one of my wife's (smallpeace's) threads, FightTheFight made the following very insightful comment: [I]t is very common for a woman in the earlier stages of a relationship to be much more willing to make love and desire sex because she is motivated to have the relationship work out. It's her gift to the man she loves. However, after being married, [etc etc her husband is up sh1t creek]. Yes, this exactly describes it, and what a horrible strategy this is for any spouse who desires a long term relationship. You can call it "motivation" or "her gift" or whatever, but it's obvious what it really is: bait for the trap. Once the bait is withdrawn there is no man in the world who would be happy with the trap he's in (life with a woman who gives him the cold shoulder 6 nights a week and then drinks herself into oblivion on Saturdays so he can bang her). It's an ugly & degrading routine; it's horrible and totally inferior to their premarital relationship in every way; no man who ever lived on planet Earth ever got married for the sake of any such thing. I can't stand it and want out of it. It was a lie all along. Hi, Leo, I understand that you feel trapped. But it's important not to try to say what your wife's motivations are/were. You aren't psychic, so you can't say she was purposely trying to trap you. Judging your spouse's motivations is going to make a withdrawal from your account in her love bank, which is going to make her have even less desire for you. The only way to change how she feels about sex is to change how she feels about you, which Dr. Harley's instructions can do, if you follow them. I can assure you Prisca had ZERO interest in sex with me until I started making enough massive love bank deposits to turn her feelings around for me. Women don't desire sex unless they feel emotionally connected to their husband and feel that sex will happen in a way that they enjoy.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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If you want your wife to want to have sex with you, make sure you never fight with her, and make sure you never do or say anything that she feels is demanding, disrespectful, or angry.
This is the first step to solving this problem.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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But it's important not to try to say what your wife's motivations are/were. You aren't psychic, so you can't say she was purposely trying to trap you. I haven't speculated as to my wife's motivations. FightTheFight did that - on my wife's thread - and she agreed with him. I don't think she was trying to trap me. But there's no question that's the way it worked out. The only way to change how she feels about sex is to change how she feels about you, which Dr. Harley's instructions can do, if you follow them. I've been following them. I haven't seen any change. Not even the smallest change. If you want your wife to want to have sex with you, make sure you never fight with her, and make sure you never do or say anything that she feels is demanding, disrespectful, or angry.
This is the first step to solving this problem. It's very difficult when you try to do this, and try to do everything else to fulfill Dr Harley's program, try to meet her needs, try to eliminate not only "Love Busters" but whatever annoying behavior she complains about - to make a real sustained effort for a long time - and see no sign that anything is changing. I don't know how long I can keep expending energy in this way. I mean, she acts more cheerful; that's the only change. She cold-shoulders me more cheerfully. She's clearly happy that I'm not Love Busting her; it doesn't translate into anything I want or need. The point is that I can't keep this up indefinitely; I know that.
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On her thread she writes that I was "in a funk" Friday night. I was depressed, had been dealing with growing depression all week, because of the familiar trajectory of everything. It culminated on Friday night. I didn't get angry, make disrespectful judgments, make selfish demands, etc. I was just depressed. But she's basically saying I'm being a bad husband ("he's incapable of being a loving husband long-term"). She hates me. If this situation isn't a trap I don't know what is.
Last edited by Leo1000; 10/16/16 07:17 AM.
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She doesn't hate you, but what the depression is doing to you. Because she wants a marriage to you that you both would be happy in, that's the only way it could be sustainable long term. You're VERY fortunate she's giving you this feedback, sometimes folks feel like that and don't know why. Are you getting help for your depression? Of course untreated depression is going to tell you you stick with your plan, but you'll know when you get effective help for the depression because this will look doable to you again.
Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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But it's important not to try to say what your wife's motivations are/were. You aren't psychic, so you can't say she was purposely trying to trap you. I haven't speculated as to my wife's motivations. FightTheFight did that - on my wife's thread - and she agreed with him. I don't think she was trying to trap me. But there's no question that's the way it worked out. The only way to change how she feels about sex is to change how she feels about you, which Dr. Harley's instructions can do, if you follow them. I've been following them. I haven't seen any change. Not even the smallest change. If you want your wife to want to have sex with you, make sure you never fight with her, and make sure you never do or say anything that she feels is demanding, disrespectful, or angry.
This is the first step to solving this problem. It's very difficult when you try to do this, and try to do everything else to fulfill Dr Harley's program, try to meet her needs, try to eliminate not only "Love Busters" but whatever annoying behavior she complains about - to make a real sustained effort for a long time - and see no sign that anything is changing. I don't know how long I can keep expending energy in this way. I mean, she acts more cheerful; that's the only change. She cold-shoulders me more cheerfully. She's clearly happy that I'm not Love Busting her; it doesn't translate into anything I want or need. The point is that I can't keep this up indefinitely; I know that. You are expecting too much too soon. I can tell you were starting to make an impact but then you blew it. You need to be more patient and stick with it. You will start seeing changes around 8 weeks.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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What exactly do you mean she "cold shoulders" you?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I just read you only went out on ONE DATE last week. In that case, your marriage will NEVER CHANGE. You are wasting your time. When Dr Harley was in private practice, he refused to counsel anyone would not devote at least 15 hours per week to their marriage. It takes 20-25 hours of undivided attention per week to change your marriage. It takes 15 hours to just maintain the romantic love. That means you should be scheduling FOUR - FOUR HOUR DATES per week. ONE DATE will not cut it! If you want to change your marriage, you need to get 20-25 hours of UA time. ONE DATE will never get you anywhere, except frustrated and wondering why the "program doesn't work." It will NEVER WORK if you won't schedule much more UA time. My H and I sit down every Sunday afternoon and schedule our dates using this form: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/FiveSteps_Time_for_Undivided_Attention_Worksheet.pdf
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I've been following them. I haven't seen any change. Not even the smallest change. But you haven't. You are still extremely disrespectful, and you are not getting the 15 hours of UA outside of the house. Any woman would recoil from a man that treats her that way, not just your wife.
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I haven't speculated as to my wife's motivations. FightTheFight did that - on my wife's thread - and she agreed with him. Instead of arguing that you're not "speculating," listen and take notes and make changes. What you are doing is disrespectful, no matter what you call it, and it needs to stop. "Yes, this exactly describes it, and what a horrible strategy this is for any spouse who desires a long term relationship." Disrespecful Judgement."You can call it "motivation" or "her gift" or whatever, but it's obvious what it really is: bait for the trap." Disrespecful Judgement."Once the bait is withdrawn there is no man in the world who would be happy with the trap he's in (life with a woman who gives him the cold shoulder 6 nights a week and then drinks herself into oblivion on Saturdays so he can bang her)." Disrespecful Judgement."It's an ugly & degrading routine; it's horrible and totally inferior to their premarital relationship in every way; no man who ever lived on planet Earth ever got married for the sake of any such thing." Disrespecful Judgement."It was a lie all along." Disrespecful Judgement."I don't think she was trying to trap me. But there's no question that's the way it worked out." Disrespecful Judgement."She hates me." Disrespecful Judgement."If this situation isn't a trap I don't know what is." Disrespecful Judgement.
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If you want your wife to want to have sex with you, make sure you never fight with her, and make sure you never do or say anything that she feels is demanding, disrespectful, or angry.
This is the first step to solving this problem. It's very difficult when you try to do this, and try to do everything else to fulfill Dr Harley's program, try to meet her needs, try to eliminate not only "Love Busters" but whatever annoying behavior she complains about - to make a real sustained effort for a long time - and see no sign that anything is changing. I don't know how long I can keep expending energy in this way. I mean, she acts more cheerful; that's the only change. She cold-shoulders me more cheerfully. She's clearly happy that I'm not Love Busting her; it doesn't translate into anything I want or need. The point is that I can't keep this up indefinitely; I know that. You're not telling markos anything he hasn't been through. I'd listen to him if I were you, instead of wasting your breath arguing. He had a wife who had no interest in sex whatsoever. She was so disinterested she told him to find a hooker. Yet, he managed to turn things around by following Dr. Harley's program. He's showing you the way to go. You say you have been following the program, but you haven't. Listen when people point out the mistakes you are making so that you can refine your plan and move forward. If you are having trouble getting motivated to do that, see your doctor about short-term antidepressants. Dr. Harley recommends men do this who are in your situation. If you are already on antidepressants, see about getting them adjusted.
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Are you getting help for your depression? Of course untreated depression is going to tell you you stick with your plan, but you'll know when you get effective help for the depression because this will look doable to you again. I don't mean I have clinical depression. I don't think I do. I have had it but it was a long time ago.
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I haven't speculated as to my wife's motivations. FightTheFight did that - on my wife's thread - and she agreed with him. Instead of arguing that you're not "speculating," listen and take notes and make changes. What you are doing is disrespectful, no matter what you call it, and it needs to stop. "Yes, this exactly describes it, and what a horrible strategy this is for any spouse who desires a long term relationship." Disrespecful Judgement."You can call it "motivation" or "her gift" or whatever, but it's obvious what it really is: bait for the trap." Disrespecful Judgement."Once the bait is withdrawn there is no man in the world who would be happy with the trap he's in (life with a woman who gives him the cold shoulder 6 nights a week and then drinks herself into oblivion on Saturdays so he can bang her)." Disrespecful Judgement."It's an ugly & degrading routine; it's horrible and totally inferior to their premarital relationship in every way; no man who ever lived on planet Earth ever got married for the sake of any such thing." Disrespecful Judgement."It was a lie all along." Disrespecful Judgement."I don't think she was trying to trap me. But there's no question that's the way it worked out." Disrespecful Judgement."She hates me." Disrespecful Judgement."If this situation isn't a trap I don't know what is." Disrespecful Judgement.That's retarded. None of my statements were judgments of her. You can shoehorn them into being that if you want to be wilfully obtuse, but don't pretend you're helping me out by doing so.
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