Correct and if you had spent more time getting to know him as a freeloader (dating) you would have both discovered this. Dr Harley warns against jumping quickly into renter/buyer mode exactly for this reason.



You can incorporate this into a plan B letter later. For now just say you love him and that he has to leave. Give him a firm date.

I thought you gave him the questionnaires to fill out, but he has refused?

Step 1: Tell him he needs to move out.
Step 2: When he moves out, go no contact.

This! He doesn't need 4 weeks to move out.

Plenty of people have horrible childhood or adult abuse stories and are able to implement MB.

I'm not saying that your H didn't have a bad childhood, but this is a tactic that people use when they don't want to change their behavior and care for their spouse. Honestly we see this kind of stuff spouted ALL the time by WS's over on the Surviving an Affair forum.

People who are serious about recovering a M don't cry about childhood issues. It's really that simple.

There should be no confusion. Please stop making this more complicated than it needs to be:

"Jan 2016 - Husband again tells me that he cannot be a good husband, even though things had been great between us. I told him that I didnt believe him, that I felt he was doing his normal freak out when things get hard by external circumstance. He told me he only wants to be married when he is in a good mood, I say this is unacceptable. he tells me he will stay for a year, see how things go but that he doesnt want to be married and wants a divorce. He took his ring off and never put it back on."

He has stayed with you because he is using you for financial support. He does not want to be married to you.

I am questioning whether the "Call it Quits" article even applies here. He is just using you.

I would pack up his stuff and move it outside.

Prisca - he agreed pretty enthusiastically to do the questionnaire, but just has not done it yet (been a week, granted a busy week - but still).

Also - he is not currently commiting AOs. He has done a great job at eliminating them. Its been 3 weeks since he had one (which is amazing since they used to be daily) and he has asked me to continue to help him eliminate them when they happen (the irritated sighs and eye rolling, which might not be yelling - but to me they are contemptuous and offensive as if he were yelling).


I will tell him to day that I love him but that he needs to leave and I will set a date that is with in 4 weeks. I suspect he will leave on his own much sooner out of anger. And if he DOES become angry towards me, I will tell him to leave immediately.


I do feel like he should get his portion of our tax return (doing taxes today) and will give him what his percentage is.


SusieQ - I think deep down inside I know you are right that he is using me. You would not be the first person to say that.

So, as I said, he is aware of the program and he has refused to do it.

Only 3 weeks? They aren't eliminated yet. And if he's sighing and rolling his eyes, they aren't eliminated yet. He doesn't need your help to eliminate them, either. He shouldn't be putting any of this on you.

He doesn't need 4 weeks.

Bags. On the Stoop. Today.

Just do it.

Bear I am so relieved you are tightening up the timeline. We have all been there and let me tell you hon if these changes are going to last it will have nothing to do with you giving him a soft landing. I love how markos named it motel 6 therapy. I needed that myself the break from pretending that I could stay in a marriage where I was being LBd Year after year. I have no such magical ability and the sooner I stopped pretending and got honest the sooner my life changed. Please keep us updated.

Thankyou for your kindness New. I am pretty distraught right now. Everyone says there should be no confusion, and I am sure there isnt when you arent right in it in the moment. But being new to these principles, and being educated on the effects on CSA - its very hard to do this.

We just did our taxes this afternoon. At least that is one step done. No time to get to the bank to take him off my account. Will have to do that in the morning. He has to go with me and sign off.

I will need to move some things to my name, and move some things to his name.

I am very very sad about this. Its very hard to let go after everything, but I am determined to do it and do it right.

As they say here feelings follow action. As a survivor my experience with CSA made me understand all the more how there is no room for any of this abuse, one manipulating at the others expense, in my life any more. You deserve to be protected while your partner is healing.

New - goodness, I am sorry you had to experience that. You are right, there is no room for it, CSA doesnt justify it, but it sure is common among male survivors to manipulate. Scarily my husband used to brag on his ability to do that. How I turned a blind eye to that I will never know. He knows exactly how to hurt me too.

His other 2 separations from me were to do exactly that - protect me while he dealt with some of the incredible anger he was experiencing. One was limited contact ONLY with our counselor, and the second was open contact (he did much better on that one). Both times he came back after a couple of months "totally convinced his life was with me", only to take it back the next time there was a crisis. he really loosing it emotionally and disconnects as soon as ANY crisis happens. Its scary - he was diagnosed with severe ADHD and dissacociative disorder. On top of that, he has lost a good portion of his memory function and shows signs of early dementia.

He forgets EVERYTHING and constantly has to be reminded to do something (even when he is gung ho and loves the activity).

I really commend you for lifting yourself up from that and taking that perspective. Many survivors cant seem to find their way there, and still live in the shadow of the abuse. My husband was raped mutilple times by multiple people and forced to commit acts that no child should ever even KNOW of. For years. He only recently disclosed in the last few years, and has been following the typical path of a CSA male survivor. He even wen through EMDR treatment which seemed to be really making an impact, but it brought up some things he was afraid of.

SOmetimes its like he is an empty shell.... its crazy.


Not saying any of this justifies bad treatment and I agree that it should not impact my plans, but it certainly does put another level of hurt on top of all this.

I'm glad you're going to follow the MB plan. You deserve so much better and next time raise that bar!!

So when will you be asking him to move out?

BR, how is it going? I re-read your posts and wanted to give my thoughts. Exposing him to Marriage Builders will not fix this marriage because the basic problem the whole time has been that he is not in love and is not committed to you. I think you know this. He has tried this whole time to escape, not to "protect" you from his anger, but so he could play Warcraft and look at porn in peace. He only allowed you to stay so he could enjoy your financial support. He has not changed in the entire time you have been together.

He has told you for some time he wants a divorce, but will "allow" you to support him for a year or more. He has had all this time to get a viable job and has not done it. The reason he doesn't work on his marriage is because he doesn't care, not because he needs to work on his childhood.

I hope you are taking this all in and are following through on the advice you were given. You seem like a very nice person who deserves so much better than this.

Brainhurts,

Is there a thread like this for an Angry Wife? I have to deal with mine.

Thank you.

Dr. Harley is not quite as clear in his articles on what a man needs to do with his angry wife. I have heard him on the radio show talk about how a wife's anger doesn't affect a man the same way a husband's anger affects a woman, and he doesn't necessarily recommend separation in that case.

It would be good for you to write Dr. Harley about this subject.

Hi Everyone - quick update, I am working on securing everything. I need to take care of some out of state assets, and get my finances in order. That should not take but a few days (business days - could not do over the weekend). I am also preparing myself emotionally for "worst case scenario" reaction, and also for the emotional rollercoaster that I am about to jump on (at least this one has an end in sight versus the one I am stepping off of). I am setting up plans with friends, making sure I get out of the house and visiting with people. I got my cousin on board and she knows I might have desperate moments of sadness that I need to call her or have her come over. I am gearing up to manage the pool (his former domain) and deal with the dogs - he walked them and took care of feeding them. None of its overly big, but its an adjustment I need to make in my head so that I dont slack on any of it.

One thing I do want to address though ML since you brought it up (and no it changes nothing), I totally see what you are saying here about the Warcraft and Porn. I think he did spend all of his separation time playing video games, but I dont think he was watching porn. He is so disgusted by sex that he will even change a channel or movie or just get up and walk away when things get sexual. There is nothing even remotely inappropriate on his phone or coming through my router logs (even when I was away, as I can remote in and see everything). This is why he says he cannot be a husband to me because he is so repulsed by sexual contact of any kind (very very common for me who are just starting to deal with being raped).

During the separation, it was another game called Star Wars the Old Republic that he played. (not that it makes it any better...addiction is addiction, doesnt matter if its Coors or Budwiser)

Warcraft is another story all together though. About 10 months ago, after a binge of watching Warcraft videos on Youtube for 8 hours a day for 2 almost two months (the Warcraft movie had just come out and triggered him to want to play again - before that he had zero interest for almost 5 years after I told him that I would not allow that game in my house and he was free to leave and play the game or to build a life with me), he joined a support group for WoW addicts (all on his own, I didnt know it until he told me a few months after - I just noticed that he started making changes that were healthy, and he started treating me much better), and hasnt shown much interest since at all. He has as of THIS week; since he said he wanted to leave on 8/1, watched a couple of YouTube music videos that utilized WoW game footage. He also stated on his "5 things that I (me) could do to make you feel loved" was to, and I quote exactly:

"understand that while I don't play games anymore, and dont plan to, I do like reading about them and watching videos about them. Its not a precursor to playing again."

When I read that I looked at him and said its like an alcoholic saying they only want to go the bar and have 1 beer, but not get drunk. While we were laughing at it in the moment, the more I think about it the more irritated I get because this is something that caused great damage to me, and to our marriage, and he wants to flit with it. I am letting that anger build and become fuel for what needs to happen asap. I am no longer suppressing any anger about any of this.... Its my fire inside to get this done.

I wont have an AO or anything, I will remain calm at all times, and then when I am free - I will scream to the rooftops to get it all out. ;-) Part of me is itching for this bandaid to be ripped off, part of me just wants to curl up and cry for a week. Even now, that I am really to the point of letting go - it still hurts. It hurts to think that all I have been through and done for him and it boils down to - in its most basic part - that he has been using me.

You are right, it doesn't change my point. My entire point was that he separated in order to pursue his addictions without interference. The subject of the addiction does not change the point.


Not that it matters, but didn't you mention he had a porn/masturbation addiction for several years? So how is it you can believe he is repulsed by sexual contact? I can think of several ways he could pursue a porn addiction without you seeing it on his phone or router logs. Do you have spyware on his phone? His avoidance of sex with you - claiming to be "repulsed" - very much sounds like a man who is actively addicted to porn. Men who are addicted to porn a) avoid sex with their wives and b) are strangely emotionally calloused to their spouse and have a history of treating their spouse as a sex object rather than an object of love and passion. Wives of porn addicts complain that their spouse does not "make love" but rather, just uses them for a sexual release.

My suggestion would be to not believe anything you haven't personally verified. [and checking his phone and the routers is not a comprehensive verification]

And I want to applaud you for preparing for this separation. When do you plan on giving him the news?

ML - Yes, I have a form of software on his phone that is essentially spyware but its not labeled as such (yay for me working in IT security and encryption for decades) - and I have been actively snooping for 6 years, watching VERY closely (even checking inside our ac vents for hidden stuff - never came up with ANYTHING). NOTHING has come up in any form (even a forensic exam of his computer after BOTH separations) as far as pornography for over 5 years. He did have a problem in the first 2 years of our relationship with Porn, I caught it 1 year into our relationship, pre-engagement. I asked him to stop, he did, but I DID catch him looking at porn 1 other time after that, right after he said he felt that Warcraft was more important to me, and we had just entered counseling. He claimed he was "testing" me, and let me tell you that did NOT go well with me. I told him if he did it one more time, that was it. Since then, I havent found a single instance of any porn, online, on his phone, any "hard copy" stuff - nothing... and for snooping - I can break down his phones and his computers and see everything ever deleted as well just FYI - I was able to figure out all the hookup sites he was on and every porn site he was on previous to our relationship even going back several years previous to our relationship - AND was able to pull out his passwords from the old logs after de-encrypting, log in and change ALL of them and see what activity he did (which was literally nothing, no communications with anyone etc), THAT is how far i snooped and continue to snoop. I made him own up to everything and made it clear, that one more instance of finding porn and I was out. (this was also pre-disclosure about the CSA). He acted out sexually, was extremely promiscuous, and did alot of drugs - all stemming from the CSA. (Per our therapist, his CSA specialist and his physicians involved in his case). All of that stopped when we got together, and then the porn issue stopped with in 1.5 years.

His sex drive is extremely affected by intimacy. He struggles with it deeply, wants it - but doesnt know how to have it (the nature of who molested him and how). To him, love and SF are two different things, so thats what we focused on initially.

As for the repulsion, I believe it 100%. He has had breakdowns of panic, and times when he fixates on certain acts that were perpetrated on him, and him forced to do (all his porn was related to the same act as well). This is common for men who go through this to have that fixation, and then when they start emotionally DEALING with it - the repulsion is also extremely common, enough so that its expected in the process. Its a very hot/cold thing - for many male CSA survivors, its an issue of control, trying to figure out a way to exert control over the situation by in a way reliving it with Porn, and sadly - MANY will act out and have random hookups with other men or women to "relive" the experience, but be the one with the power. Its very very very very very hard to deal with. I have been working hard to educate myself about CSA and its effects just to try and understand. My husband is pretty stereo typical.

He also has severe low testosterone that he doesnt treat (I think out of fear that it triggers hormones that stimulate his sex drive). He has never had a high one, outside when he was younger and sleeping around with no ties.

The few times that he has been able to let go of everything have been pretty intensly amazing. When he has just said he doesnt want the past in his life, just wants the future, and our sex life will be absolutely incredible and fulfilling for both of us, but that usually ends quickly when the panic inside him sets in again about loosing control.

He lies to maintain control of information, he holds back actions when he said he would do them as a form of control. He wont even follow through with his "instructor" in his hobby, who he adores and respects, because when he does what they tell him to do he feels they have control over him. His ideas of control are warped and distorted in ways that I cant even begin to untangle. He thinks that unless he is doing what he wants in the exact moment he wants it - he doesnt have control. This is the very definition of being out of personal control, but there is no telling him that.

I think he started to clue in on it last year when I basically let go and said I that he would not longer dictate my life. I just ignored him basically. Only spoke to him when I had to, and I focused on my own needs. I started working out, eating better, going out and making plans for my life. I felt enourmously better, and he took notice. Eventually he started making his own changes, he got in the the gaming support group (I didnt know it yet), and he started getting things done around the house that he just neglected. He finished every project that he had promised to do the previous year when I was out of town. He also started making better eating choices, and he started working out. He also started going to his practices weekly and all of that blossomed into him making love bank deposits to me.

Example - for 2 months, I worked out like crazy, and he never said a word about it. Never aknowledged it in any way. Then suddenly - he brought me a glass of water and sat it down on a table for me and gave me a paper towel to wipe my face. He didnt say anything, but he just did actions like that. That next day, he did it again. And then it soon became he did it every time he saw me walking to my eliptical. One day, when I was done, he got on it and started doing it too. From then on - he did it every day. He had already stopped watching the youtube videos about Warcraft as well, and put his focus into his fighting activities.

He has stalled out there, for the control issues I mentioned above, and also because he tends to freeze up when in a fight. It triggers fear in him and he tends to just literally freeze and give up the fight just to get away. He cannot handle being in close proximity to other people for very long. He avoids touch of any kind. In fact, I am not allowed to touch him unless he initiates it or I specifically ask. This is all 100% normal for someone who has been through this kind of trauma. He CAN recover, but he has to choose to do it, I cannot do it for him.

I know I have said he used me, and I do believe has, but I dont think its been totally a concsious thing. I believe he has used and manipulated people his whole life, its all he knows, and its how he survived (which is a miracle - with out going into details, its truly a miracle that he is alive right now). That doesnt make it right, and he has devestated many peoples lives because of his lack of control, his self centered views. he basically never grew emotionally.

So - while its baby steps and very small, there has been significant change over the years when you add it up. Other than him saying he still wants to leave (which shocked me), I would not have a problem of where things are at since we are both actively working on being better for eachother. I found MB, and have been implementing, and the things I HAVE done have made huge impact (his AOs and other smaller changes I am seeing).

His actions do not match his words - always confusing.


I tell you all this - not to say my plans have changed, they haven't. But to kind of give you more idea of where I am at and WHY. I know you guys think bad childhood abuse is a distraction, and I think in many cases that is the truth, and I think it is the truth SOMEWHAT here as well - but after spending the past 5 years learning about male survivors of CSA, and how little support is there for them, and the phases of recovery and the kinds of acting out and what it does to male wiring - I still believe that much if this is very much related to the CSA and his absolute FEAR of dealing with it. Even his mother is shocked and doesnt get it. Other than me, she is the closest person to him. She doesnt believe him that he wants to leave either, and she has been the person who has told me the most that he does love me etc. She is adamant. But she is his mother so she cannot see the forest for the trees you know?

I am the longers, and first and only "real" relationship my husband has ever had. Though he was previously married (many years ago, step daughter was product of that), he only got married because he got the girl pregnant - sadly neither one even really loved eachother, they did it for "duty". They werent together for long, and she cheated on him regularly and then left him and their daughter after 2 years to go be with an affair partner.

He was engaged between that marriage and ours to someone he met "in game" on Warcraft. She moved up to be with him, and he basically ignored her until she left. I think that lasted maybe 6 months. He has flat out refused to make any changes for anyone OTHER than me.

Things he has changed :

No more porn
No more warcraft (though he backslid by watching videos about the game)
No more video games in general (his computer isnt even set up)
He no longer goes to Sport Illustrated because of the soft porn there (his own choice because he didnt want to see it anymore)
He is very open about any female he talks to and limits friendships to be primarily male and "couples" friends. (we have some shared friends that are opposite sex that we have known since our teens)
He will ask me if I am comfortable with anything he does that is "out of the norm" like if he needs to give someone a ride a work (this only happened once, and while we were separated, and he called me and asked if I was OK with it).
When we have fought in the last couple of years, he has gone out of his way to apologize for his part in in, and he has asked me to tell him when he is doing something that bothers me so he can stop.
He still wants to spend time with me, and make me his "muse" in his hobby, basically he wants to "fight for me" in tournements etc when you are supposed to have an "inspiration".
Even yesterday, we had a BBQ that we went to (committed to a while back) and he was very considerate of me, and when he left to check on the dogs, he came back with my favorite candy bar, saying he remembered I talked about it a couple of weeks ago and wanted to see me smile.

This is crazy right? I could give you a 100 little things a day he does to be a good husband. Other than the sexual fulfillment = the part he thinks is broken and why he cant be a good husband to me, says I deserve to have that part of my life in tact, but he cant because he is so repulsed right now by that sort of contact of ANY kind.

I know I posted the bad stuff, and maybe I should have been more clear in the good things too. But sometimes boiling things down makes it easier to see i guess?

He does almost everything the way he should (even lining up in many ways with MB - hell, the POJA is something he just does naturally with MOST things, and has gotten better with recently with the big things like gaming). Thats why its so hard for me to really understand this, its like 2 people. Who does all these good things and then turns around and says they still want to leave?

Its crazy... really it is.

And no - my plans have not changed, I am still working on getting everything in place and lined up to protect myself. I dont have a date yet, but it will be VERY VERY SOON. I need to make sure everything is secured first, and I know that will take a few days. And I am thinking unless something extreme happens between now and then, some time next week I will be "dropping the bomb". Only when I am secured though. I refuse to loose ANYTHING ELSE to this relationship, and I can stick it out a few more days to do that.

Also - in case I wasnt very clear (sometimes when I get on a train of thought I get like this...

Porn problem 1.5 years into our relationship
Masturbation problem lasted about 1 year after that (but it was pretty infrequent and our sex life was decent but not great - but BETTER than it had been)
Discloser came on the CSA 3 years in, and since then sex life has been extremely strained, and got much worse the deeper he got into therapy.
About 3 years ago he started with a specialist on CSA and had him stop medicating for his ADHD issues as they were masking his ability to deal with the CSA trauma impact.
Beginning of last year (when he always has his meltdown in January) right after my mother died is when he said he could not be a husband anymore. He started dealing with things with the specialist the scared him enough that he stopped seeing him. It was then that he backslid into the Warcraft videos. (Warcraft was his way to escape and "be someone else" with out his past - super addicting, and feeds his ADHD on top of everything else).

He honestly seemed to be taking small steps with the yearly meltdown getting less and less (this year he hardly had impact, he did have some memory issues, and would walk away from an open refrigerator, or he would walk away from a running faucet - really basic stuff like dementia patiends do, asking the same question over and over, not understanding things etc). BUT he didnt have the severe emotional breakdown he normally experienced. To me - that was a direct result of all the work he did last year to improve himself.

Because of that, I really thought we had made progress. We even started sleeping in the same bed again. (he had been on the couch because he thought I didnt want him there, which I can totally understand). But I said I did and he immediately started sleeping with me again. He still will jump if accidentally touched, but its a pretty big jump for him.


One other thing I should mention, my H has never has a problem walking away from anyone. Ever. Even when they supported him financially like his ex fiance did. As soon as ANYONE ever had a problem with how he treated them, he was done. He has never ever made a single improvement for anyone other than what he has done in our relationship.