So, my wife has left, not really communicating at all.

While I adore her, and want things to work out, if she needs to leave to be happy, I can deal with that.

However, she has major medical issues (using the max FSA contribution in ~8 each year), but if we are split, I can save ~150 a PAYCHECK by dropping her and changing to a high deduct plan, with HSA.

Open enrollment is typically in Oct. What I would like is advice on how to broach a written agreement that we will try to work things out, with some hard dates in it. Things like 'min weekly couple counselling sessions' and maybe 'min weekly individual counseling'. I"m not sure what else.

I have been reading on here, and MY goal is to work thru this and we continue on together and do better. I don't know her goal.

Why did she leave?

Tym, have you read enough on here to understand that the most common scenario is a couple where one spouse wants to use Dr. Harley's recommendations to save their marriage and the other does not? And that Dr. Harley has lots of specific recommendations for that scenario?

@Markos No, I haven't. I find the site difficult to navigate, so a link would be appreciated.

@MelodyLane: Complex reasons. I'd say, primarily, b/c she felt I ignored her wishes & feelings. Also, she claims it's not safe for her & our daughter b/c my 22 yr old daughter lives her w/ her 3 kids & SO, and, well, they act like small children who are around each other all the time. They play, they fight, and the 2 yr old (my granddaughter) had issues with biting and pinching.

My wife is correct that I didn't hear her. I didn't, and don't, know how to communicate with her any longer. It's also true that she doesn't know how to communicate with me. We're both wandering around lost, it seems.

Can your daughter and her family move out? Will your wife come back if they move out? It sure doesn't sound like she was happy with this arrangement.

How long have you been married? How old is your youngest daughter? Did your wife take your daughter with her when she moved out? Where is your wife living now? Do you ever see her?

How long has your older daughter and family been living with you? What prompted her to move in? Was your wife consulted about this arrangement?

It's unlikely that your granddaughter's behaviour was a factor in your wife's moving out. It is more likely that she felt that you would not listen to her, and act on her complaints, and that you always sided with your older daughter, or treated the situation as if your older daughter and your wife were equals in your considerations - when they are not. Your wife should come first and only.

Could you tell us more about the "wishes and feelings" you ignored? What were they, and how long had this been going on? Why didn't you act on your wife's complaints and desires? Did this lead to fighting between you? How long had things been bad in the marriage?

I'm working on that. Since my wife has moved out, I've been able to notice issues I didn't see before.

So there will be a plan with hard dates in place very soon.

I'm trying to balance 'she needs to get the [censored] out' with 'don't feel like a [censored] grandparent'. It's not easy.

Together for about 10 yrs.

Youngest is 5 in August.

Youngest is with wife at wife's dad's.

I have seen my youngest less than 8 hrs since Jun 21 in person. Near daily video calls.

Older daughter has been here since Feb 2017, moved in after Baton Rouge Flooding - both she & I had total losses.

Consulted: Wife & I have different versions of that conversation.

About not listening. Yep, pretty damn sure you're right, 100%. But I didn't see it then.



As to wishes and feelings. God, it's been going on years, in a building mountain. At least in the last 2 years, maybe longer, we lost the ability to communicate with one another. I knew that, but I focused HARD on 'this is how you need to talk so I can hear you' w/o ever realizing I needed to figure out the same from my side.

Some major issues:

She will say 'we need to talk about something'. Sometimes she tells me the something, sometimes not. But almost never do we actually have the conversation. Either I say 'ok, lets talk' and she's not really ready, but if it's delayed, it never comes back around to actually having the conversation.

That's gone on so long, that I got into a habit of just going 'yea right' internally rather than trying to do something about it.

She also takes exception to the fact that when I'm excited (good or bad) my volume goes up. Not quite to yelling, usually, but it's more than just quiet conversation. So she will walk away, which is ok, but never come back and finish the conversation.

I'm left feeling like she isn't interested in solutions, just complaining.

I also realize this is all one sided, and I'm trying to present things as objectively as I can (not very, most likely), but it's what I have to work with at the moment.

Who says these things, and under what circumstances?

And by the way, we don't like cursing on this forum.

For how long have you been legally married?

Please explain the different versions.

After this description, I still have no idea what her complaints were about. Could you please try again to explain what she complained about? What was she unhappy about for all those years?

Legally married: Not. LA doesn't have any real common law marriage.

Different versions: I say that I spoke to her about it, and she never said it would be an issue, as long as it wasn't a perm move in.

She says I simply dictated what would happen.

Long description: Welcome to my world. I don't know either. I know that's not helpful, but it's what I have.

RE: move out dates. That's me saying that, to my daughter. I've invited my wife to part of the conversation, but she has made no answer.

Why have you never legally married?

When you say that you "spoke to her about it", what did you say to her? Did you tell her that your daughter would be moving in? And when you say "She never said it would be an issue", did you ask her how she would feel if the family moved in? Did you explicitly ask her for her feelings? Did you give her the right to say no, she did not want that to happen? Is she correct that you simply dictated what would happen?

How do you propose to address her complaints, if you don't even know what they are? What efforts did you make to find out what was making her unhappy?

When you write in this "shorthand" style, I find it hard to understand what you are saying. How could "SHE needs to get the ...out", or "don't feel like a ....grandfather" be addressed to your daughter?

If you're this lacklustre attempting to explain her complaints to us, does this reflect your efforts to improve your relationship all along? You're not putting much enthusiasm into this quest for help. Do you really want to address her complaints, so that you can have a different relationship - one in which she wants to stay, and is happy? You're not giving that impression.

I'm going to take offense at this. I AM trying. But I am so thoroughly frelling confused right now, I don't even know HOW to answer some of these questions. This is why I asked for help. This kind of response totally lacks compassion, and sets me up as the bad guy.

I'm not 'the bad guy'. Doesn't mean I'm the good guy either. I sure as hell have my share of mistakes and blunders. But I'm trying to learn from them, and how to avoid them in the future, regardless of who I'm with.

I'll answer your other post in a few minutes after I've cooled off, not b/c I give a crap about YOUR responses at this point, but b/c you asked good questions and maybe someone can help me.

This is a very odd lens through which to view your relationship - the fact that you'd save a lot of money by splitting permanently, and dropping her from your health insurance, and that you need to make a decision about whether to entice her back because the date for enrolment is approaching.

Those really are not the romantic words that women would like to hear after they leave their partner, who claims to want them back. If that were me, I'd tell you where to stick your health insurance.

Do you see the problem with your lacklustre attitude that I'm trying to identify here?

You never married her, and you certainly seem to be in what Dr Harley describes as a freeloader's relationship. I think you'll need a major change of attitude - including a commitment to marrying her, and staying together for life - to win her back, or to deserve to have her come back.

I AM committed to marrying her. I WANT to. She won't.

The insurance bit: I have to think of BOTH possible outcomes. What do I do if she stays (my preferred outcome) and what do I do if she does NOT.

Anyway, for those that don't want to crucify me, here's the answers to above questions:

Why have you never legally married?

I asked many years ago, and the following week she got increasingly ugly to me until it blew up into a HUGE fight. I even let her know (b/c she's my 3rd wife) that I was willing to enter a convenant marriage to her as that legally requires extra steps to break. I was offering it as way to let her know I'm serious about being with her for the rest of our lives. She said I was trying to trap her by wanting that.

We seperated for a short time at that point, but reconciled. I let her know I'm still willing to marry her, she just has to let me know when she's ready. She's never let me know.


When you say that you "spoke to her about it", what did you say to her? Did you tell her that your daughter would be moving in? And when you say "She never said it would be an issue", did you ask her how she would feel if the family moved in? Did you explicitly ask her for her feelings? Did you give her the right to say no, she did not want that to happen? Is she correct that you simply dictated what would happen?

That was over 6 months ago, during a very stressfull time. I don't know what exactly I said. I probably did NOT ask how she would feel about it. I probably did say "We need to let Lori & fam move in as they don't have place, is that a problem?". She DID have the right to say no, although that would have caused a MAJOR discussion at the very least. Although I probably did not state that explictly, and simply assumed she knew.




How do you propose to address her complaints, if you don't even know what they are? What efforts did you make to find out what was making her unhappy?

I try to communicate with her in the way she has requested: Text. I ask questions. I do not recieve replies. I don't know how to take corrective action that will actually help, as I don't know what she wants or needs.

Originally Posted By: Tymanthius
RE: move out dates. That's me saying that, to my daughter. I've invited my wife to part of the conversation, but she has made no answer.

When you write in this "shorthand" style, I find it hard to understand what you are saying. How could "SHE needs to get the ...out", or "don't feel like a ....grandfather" be addressed to your daughter?


Ok, total lack of communicaton on that, both ways. I don't even understand that question well enough to answer it.

Alright, so I had an outside friend look over this thread (the one who recommened the site to me).

He managed to explain some things to me that weren't clear from other users, and it helped.

Thank you for your help. Please keep helping me, because I obviously need it. I don't know if you've been here, but I'm raw and sore and everything feels like a knife at my throat. I know you weren't attacking me, logically, but it still feels like it. I can acknowledge that if you can have patience and help me move on.

These were his words, but they are true for me.

Also, I screwed up my OP - it was mostly a copy paste from a legal advice post b/c I DO need to prepare myself for however things go.

But that's not my goal. My goal is to see her smile again. Have her hair tickle my nose so I can't sleep. Laugh. Be goofy. Just see her and smile b/c she wants to be around me, and that makes ME feel amazing. And have her feel amazing around me, because I look at her that way. I still do, even now that I'm hurt, and sometimes angry.

We used to have that. We used to be able to communicate. That's why I fell for her so hard. I could talk to her. But things changed. She has medical issues that have her daily pain meds for years now. Baby was born, and that had SERIOUS issues. We both changed b/c of those things, and I don't think either of us knows who the other is any more.

And if that goal isn't achievable, then at least have her be happy moving forward, as well as taking care of myself.

But I'm lost and confused, and there's no lighthouse, no north star. Not even moss on the side of a tree.

So, she had a "right" to say no, but you would have punished her with an argument if she had. In reality, you backed her into a corner and she was left with no choice. This is what Dr. Harley calls a Selfish Demand.

Also, you seem to be quick tempered. Have you read anything from Dr. Harley on Angry Outbursts and Disrespectful Judgements? And learning to relax in the face of frustration?

This is an example of a Disrespectful Judgement.

Tymanthius, you seem to have calmed a bit, so my reply may be superfluous, but try not to get so defensive. SugarCane and others who are asking you the pointed questions are among the BEST here...they understand Marriage Builder principles backwards and forwards, and will give you better advice than 99% of marriage counselors out there. If at times it seems like they're administering "tough love", it's because they've helped thousands over the years, and sometimes the people who ask for help [not saying this is you] either don't give the full story, or aren't willing to take the recommended steps to recover their marriage.

I understand that you're having a rough time in your M, we all have and for various reasons, so I can sympathize with your plight. Just understand that those helping you are doing this on their own time [they aren't paid coaches], so don't take offense or get defensive, and they'll be happy to continue giving you the best advice you can get, anywhere.