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Also, you seem to be quick tempered. Have you read anything from Dr. Harley on Angry Outbursts and Disrespectful Judgements? And learning to relax in the face of frustration? Listen to Prisca here...learning to eliminate Angry Outbursts will make your life 1000% better, in your marriage and elsewhere. I've always had a quick temper, and made the mistake of having AOs to my wife and others. Huge lovebuster. Eliminating them in my own life has made me a much calmer and more patient person, and it was easier to overcome than I thought possible. Does someone have the link handy to Dr. Harley's show on overcoming AOs?
BH (me) 50, WxW 47
Married 1994
D-day, plan A, & exposure Jan 2017
Divorced Nov 2017
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@Prisca
RE 'MAJOR discussion'. The situation was that we were in the Baton Rouge Flooding. There was NO housing to be had, an entire town went under water, plus huge parts of several others. Natural disaster of epic levels. So, I think refusing to help my daughter would have warranted a lot more than just a 'no' and end of story. I also think that, while ideally it should have been a discussion, that we were already at a point that it would have become a fight.
But I get what you are saying about Disrepectful Judgements. I am certainly very guilty of that in many ways.
@abrrba
I hear you. Barely, I'll admit. As to full story - there's no way I'm giving it. There's so much I don't know. But I'm *trying* to give as much as I have.
I will sincerly try to listen better. I do not think of myself as quick tempered. But it is explosive once ignited. And, well, those you care about can hit your buttons faster than anyone. So I KNOW I've had Angry Outbursts, LOTS of times. I think, maybe, that would probably be the single best thing I could work on right now. Maybe. I'm in no place to judge well.
Also, if a few more explanations could be used when using terms that are familar to y'all, but not me, that would be helpful. Assum I don't know the jargon at all.
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RE 'MAJOR discussion'. The situation was that we were in the Baton Rouge Flooding. There was NO housing to be had, an entire town went under water, plus huge parts of several others. Natural disaster of epic levels. So, I think refusing to help my daughter would have warranted a lot more than just a 'no' and end of story. I also think that, while ideally it should have been a discussion, that we were already at a point that it would have become a fight. So, she didn't really have a right to say no.
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But it is explosive once ignited. And that's one of your biggest problems. When you have an Angry Outburst, you are temporarily insane. You cannot solve your problems in your marriage as long as you reserve the right to blow up. "First off, angry outbursts by either spouse prevents recovery. No marital problems can be solved if one spouse has even a very occasional angry outburst. Whatever the anger is related to, it makes a solution impossible." http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2715723#Post2715723"I regard angry outbursts as the worst Love Buster. That's because it's not only physically and emotionally dangerous to the other spouse, but it completely eliminates the possibility of marital problem solving. For most couples we try to help, if they can't stop their angry outbursts, nothing else works. They can't follow the Policy of Joint Agreement and they can't follow the Policy of Undivided Attention. Without those two rules in place, there's no hope for a satisfying marriage. So you must do everything in your power to stop all angry outbursts completely." http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2703558#Post2703558"Early on, I came to recognize that angry outbursts are probably the most damaging thing a spouse can do in marriage. I say this in spite of my recognition that infidelity is also a very damaging behavior. But I'm often more optimistic about the recovery of a marriage that has suffered from infidelity than than recovery of a marriage that suffers from angry outbursts. The primary reason that angry outbursts just about eliminate the hope of marital happiness is that even if they are very infrequent, they prevent a couple from solving their problems because the threat always hangs over every conversation. The first guideline for marital negotiation is to make the discussion pleasant and safe, and an angry spouse fails that very first condition, making the rest of it impossible to implement. Angry spouses simply create an environment that makes it impossible to make marital adjustments. That's why I advise couples with multiple problems that include anger to overcome the anger first, and then focus on the rest of the problems later." http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2643787#Post2643787"In some cases, I've recommended separation when one spouse doesn't take their angry outbursts seriously. For those who have not experienced physical abuse, they often feel that separation is too extreme. But I know for a fact as a clinical psychologist that angry outbursts are a form of temporary insanity, and most people who have angry outbursts cannot control what they do. In some cases, the very first angry outburst that became physical resulted in permanently injured or even death. The angry spouse has no idea that they would hurt their spouse so badly until it had already happened. Then they are grief-stricken at what took place. Angry outbursts must be completely eliminated in marriage, or the marriage is too dangerous to continue." http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2703558#Post2703558Prisca: How is Markos doing with his anger management program? A point we often make is that if angry outbursts are not eliminated from a marriage, no other problems can be solved. Best wishes, Willard F. Harley, Jr.
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Thanks Prisca. I'll get on reading all of that ASAP. And I agry, outbursts are counter-productive at best. I don't need help knowing that, I need help changing my behavior.
I have a ? about the major discussion. From where I am right now, it seems as though you are saying that if an idea is presented, and the other spouse says no, then that ends it, no matter what.
Or, possibly, you are saying that b/c we were in such a bad spot, that regardless of what should have been, the de facto situation was that she felt she had no chance b/c it would have caused a fight?
Or some other option I can't even see.
Can you expand on that.
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outbursts are counter-productive at best. This is trivializing the impact of anger outbursts. They literally destroy the other person. They control the other person by making sure the other person understands the punishment will be fierce if they have a different perspective, desire or need so the other person lives in fear of incurring your wrath. In women, living in that situation will cause their health to break down: When Marriage Can Hurt a Heart
Marital Strain Can Raise Risk of Death, Heart Disease
By Miranda Hitti
Marital strain is a home wrecker that can endanger the heart. So says a 10-year study of 3,000 men and women aged 18 to 77.
All participants were married or living in a "marital situation." The researchers collected data on marital discord. Health was tracked for a decade to see who developed heart disease or died of any cause during the study.
For both men and women, marital strain affected their health.
Marital Strain and the Married Couple
The worst health risk was seen in women who hushed up when conflicts arose with their spouse. They said they usually or always silenced themselves in such situations.
Those women might have thought they were keeping the peace, but they paid dearly for it. Women who kept mum in marital conflicts had four times the risk of dying during the study, compared with women who spoke their minds. Your outbursts terrify, control and destroy your wife. I don't need help knowing that, I need help changing my behavior. You simply stop it. There are people on this board who realized the damage their outbursts were causing to people they loved, how insane they were during the outbursts. Dr. Harley says that when you're angry you're literally an idiot. Upon that realization, they just stopped their outbursts. They CHOSE to not be an idiot again.
Last edited by Sunnytimes; 07/12/17 03:06 PM.
Are you living in a covenant with death? With bitterness in your marriage? Read Isaiah 28. The bed will not be long enough or the covers wide enough for you to ever find comfort in that life. In Isaiah 28, God tells you to take a stick and beat these conditions out of your life.
Isaiah 28:29 "This [command] also cometh forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working."
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@Sunnytimes
Trivilazation was not my attempt. However, it was deflection, which may be as bad, as it was seen as me being trivial.
As to simply stopping . . . . if it were that easy, Dr. Harley wouldn't need to help us. So, please, be more helpful as your statement sounds condescending and combative.
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It really is that easy.
You control your outbursts at work, and especially with your boss. You do this because you choose to do so and because you will suffer consequences if you don't.
You can also choose to do so when relating to your wife. You see, there are consequences when you have outbursts at her - but the consequences are suffered by her, not by you. It's very cruel to behave in a way that destroys your wife simply because it's not you that is suffering the consequences.
As your behavior with your boss proves, if YOU suffer the consequences, somehow you can chose to control yourself. If your wife is the one that is suffering, you can't.
Some people buy a GSR meter which measures their biometric responses and they practice making themselves upset and then remaining calm.
However, the biggest factor in not having outbursts anymore is caring enough about your wife to not inflict upon her the cruel consequences of your idiotic behavior.
Are you living in a covenant with death? With bitterness in your marriage? Read Isaiah 28. The bed will not be long enough or the covers wide enough for you to ever find comfort in that life. In Isaiah 28, God tells you to take a stick and beat these conditions out of your life.
Isaiah 28:29 "This [command] also cometh forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working."
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That makes sense (self evident things usually do).
But why isn't it that easy? At least partially, because my boss isn't as important to me emotionally.
But that is self contradictory. Why would I blow up at someone who IS important to me? You'd think it was the other way around.
F me if I know the answers.
I"m listening guys, but I ain't even in Kindergarten yet, I don't think.
One thing . . . I don't get mad at children. I can be darn near infinitly patient with children. But when I have applied the same techniques to my wife, she feels I am treating her like a child.
So, I think I have a piece of it there. But not all of it. Maybe?
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But why isn't it that easy? At least partially, because my boss isn't as important to me emotionally. No, it's not that. It's that the consequences would be immediate if you blew up at your boss, and the consequences are greater than the satisfaction you would get if you did it. If you lost your job every time you outbursted at your wife, you would quickly stop, right? The consequences are there - it's just that SHE is bearing them, not you. So the consequences not only don't affect you - they actually have a positive outcome for you in that they give you your way. The burden/pain/destruction of the consequences are happening to her, not to you. Her only choices are to concede or to walk away. The destruction these consequences/forced choices wreak to her health are immeasurable until she finally realizes that staying will destroy her so she has to go.
Are you living in a covenant with death? With bitterness in your marriage? Read Isaiah 28. The bed will not be long enough or the covers wide enough for you to ever find comfort in that life. In Isaiah 28, God tells you to take a stick and beat these conditions out of your life.
Isaiah 28:29 "This [command] also cometh forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working."
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Imagine you are gluten intolerant and that every time you eat gluten your gut experiences wrenching pain that puts you rolling on the floor in acute misery.
If you eat gluten at work, you'll try to push through the shooting spears of pain without too much crying/rolling around because you don't want your colleagues to think you're a weak sissy.
Now imagine outbursting as eating YOU eating gluten but your wife receiving the pain. As you are outbursting at her, she tries to keep a stiff upper lip, not wince and not give you the gratification of seeing her overwhelming pain at your behavior.
Are you living in a covenant with death? With bitterness in your marriage? Read Isaiah 28. The bed will not be long enough or the covers wide enough for you to ever find comfort in that life. In Isaiah 28, God tells you to take a stick and beat these conditions out of your life.
Isaiah 28:29 "This [command] also cometh forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working."
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I hear you. But I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it.
I mean, it should make sense, but it doesn't. So I need to figure out how I can manage to accept that. Not b/c it'll win her back, but b/c it's just true.
It should be easier to accept truths. Bah!!!!!
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I had a terrific temper as a younger girl. I was quite proud of it. Around 5th grade I was chasing another boy with a tree branch (not just a stick) and had every intention of whacking him good.
As I chased him, I started thinking about what would happen when I whacked him - that he could actually get hurt. Beyond that, what were going to be the consequences? How much trouble would I get into?
I realized I was being an absolute idiot.
I put my branch down and walked away from the chase. On that day I became a girl without a temper. I just stopped it.
My life has been immeasurably better for not making the people I love suffer through selfish idiocy on my part.
Others on this board, Dr. Harley included, just realized one day that anger made them idiots - dangerous idiots, and they simply stopped.
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I get it. And light bulbs have been going off in my head all afternoon.
But I don't change easily, or, at least haven't. And that worries me.
And it worries b/c I read some of this and I know it makes sense, but I can't seem to accept it.
Doesn't mean I'll give up, I'm stubborn too.
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But I don't change easily, or, at least haven't. And that worries me. My xH had terrible AOs. Every month or three an AO would be so severe that he would say he wished he could just leave me. It was his form of control because he knew my faith would not allow me to leave him. (Now I realize that back then I didn't understand the Bible correctly, and the Bible does allow a wife to leave an abusive husband.) I was terrified about what would become of my many children in a single parent home (you've read the scare statistics too, I'm sure, about young men being raised by single mothers, etc.) I was a very strong woman for many years. I was very successful in a challenging career. I would run 5 miles on my lunch hours, most days. I could outwork men in physical labor. However, after about 23 years of this my heart developed an arrhythmia when I realized I had no hope. You would think that after hearing for all these years that he wished he could leave me, I would have believed it before then. The day I believed it was the day my health gave out. The day I knew I had to leave the marriage, or perish. It's been several years now. My arrhythmia has not gone away. I can't run anymore - at least not more than a slow mile. I can't do mountain hikes like I used to - and I would (and still do) LIVE my life all year in great anticipation of the one week of hiking in the mountain wilderness. These hikes are the absolute highlight of my year. Yet an arrhythmia significantly limits them. I can't ride my bike like the person I used to be - loving to push myself hard. I have to pedal slowly so my heart rate doesn't rise. My workouts have to be with a very careful eye to keeping my heart rate under 80% and less than 30 minutes. My vigorous embrace of and race towards life has been severely curtailed. Your wife is not safe to be with you until you figure this out. I would urge you not to encourage her to come back unless you have gained control of your outbursts. They are literally killing her. My xH would often say things like what you have quoted. Or say things like "I am who I am." It was simply a demand that I continue to bear the consequences of his selfishness and demands. That I wasn't worth any of his effort to treat me with care. I wish I could go back and have left him sooner, when I still had my health. Your wife was right to leave you - and I hope she did it before she lost her health, too. And you would not be right to ask her back until you can GUARANTEE herself and yourself that you will not treat her this way ever again. I would see if she would date you for the next 6 months while you treat her with care, and prove to her that you will do nothing without her mutual enthusiasm (study POJA on this site), and establish a long track record without AO's.
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While that's painful for me to read, there is a glimmer of hope. I did one thing right. I already figured out that she needed to stay away until we managed to get into a 'final solution' and not the crappy short term fixes we had been applying.
What's POJA?
Also, she is prone to angry outbursts. "I don't know if I love you" and "I'm going to leave" only she doesn't are common refrains. I can't change her, but, assuming that they are not strictly retaliatory to MY AO's, what is a viable strategy for working with that? If they are reactions, then it will be solved by me correcting my behavior.
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POJA is the policy of joint agreement - nothing is done without both of your enthusiastic agreements.
No sacrificial or grudging agreements. If both are not enthusiastic then keep brainstorming other options.
You'll also want to read the articles on the Giver and the Taker that are on this site also. Often AOs are caused because your giver conceded so many times that your taker rears its ugly head and demands its way. You can protect your spouse from your taker by not overworking your giver.
POJA protects either of you from the other's demands and AOs. There are articles and quite a few threads on that topic on this site.
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As for dealing with her AO's, once you clean up your side of the street we can help you with a strategy to deal with hers. If they are defensive, they will abate substantially.
Also, hopefully, if she sees how marriagebuilders has changed you, she may be interested in learning about the concepts as well.
It doesn't sound very fair, but men are physiologically stronger than women so you can endure her AO's temporarily while you are turning your marriage around with a great Plan A in a way that she cannot endure yours.
We would not advise you to endure her AOs forever, but for now I'd focus on eliminating yours.
It may take her 6 months or longer to believe your AOs are gone. This may seem like a long haul, but a wonderful marriage to a woman you love, the mother of your child, will be well worth it.
You would have to learn this anyway to have any successful relationships in the future. Why not with your wife, your child's mom?
Are you living in a covenant with death? With bitterness in your marriage? Read Isaiah 28. The bed will not be long enough or the covers wide enough for you to ever find comfort in that life. In Isaiah 28, God tells you to take a stick and beat these conditions out of your life.
Isaiah 28:29 "This [command] also cometh forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working."
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Thanks. Yea, my short term thoughts are about 3 months right now. And, well, I can endure her not being here for 6-12 months if it means she's here for years enthusiastically.
I really am worried that I can't change properly.
We shall see. I think I'm gonna get one of the biofeedback things. Those kinds of systems help me.
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