JL,<BR>I'm sitting here with tears streaming...just amazed at the wonderful friends I have that I've never even met in person. I read your reply through two times, to make sure I was absorbing it all.<P>You've hit on each and every one of the issues we need to work out. The toughest thing for me is that my H also told me (during that same awful incident on Monday morning when I sat in his car) that he only reason he's still here in our house is because I've asked him to stay. He said he doesn't believe his feelings will change (the no more kids, no sex stuff). Although it hurt incredibly to hear him say that, a part of me wants to believe that he must think we have some chance of recovery or he wouldn't be sticking around. He would have already gotten an apartment and moved out.<P>So in reality, he hasn't even gotten to the point where he's willing to officially commit to "trying" to mend our marriage. I think he's afraid if he says he'll try, I'll start expecting things of him. So here I am in this stalled marriage that needs so much work and healing, with a H who isn't even sure if he wants to tackle all the issues.<P>I'm trying to hang in there and give him time and space without pushing him. But I do hope he can come to a decision sometime in the not-too-distant future. I feel afraid to do so many things because I don't know what's going to happen with us...if we'll split up, if son and I will have to move out, or H will move out, if I'll have to find a new and full-time job, etc. <P>Even though my heart feels incredibly numb sometimes, I know that recreating my marriage is what i want. I like to think I could help my H find the right path and balance to be fulfilled and happy with his life, and that we could make each other happy and be in love like we were once before. <P>But once again...I can't do all of this on my own. Right now I try very hard to be positive and upbeat and act "normal." Lots of days I just feel like crying and going off by myself like H does, but I feel like i can't. I have to maintain stability and a sense of routine for our son and for my depressed H. I think sometimes H thinks my "happy" demeanor means i don't feel guilty or remorseful about my affair. This is not the case. I just feel like I have to keep it all inside at this point, in order to keep going forward. I can't have the luxury of falling apart right now.<P>Anyway, thank you so much for taking the time to think about me and my problems. I feel so blessed to have come here and found you all. What a lifesaver, I don't know where I'd be without you. <P>***********************<BR>Zorweb,<BR>I'm understanding more all the time how much I will have to shoulder the whole weight of keeping us together, at least for now. I think that regaining his trust and "restructuring" our relationship (as you put it so aptly) is going to be a slow-going process. I just pray that he will want to keep it going, that he can find enough good in me and in what we have together to try to make it work.<P>I'm grateful for your perspective...<P>thanks,<BR>calla

Calla,<P>I've been thinking a lot about you and your situation. Have not written much since yesterday because my mind is still mulling it all over. <P>This entire thing is odd, is it not? We have all never met in person and yet we "know" so much about each other. My husband and I fell in love over the Internet so I know the power of this medium. Sometimes separating the physical from the spirit and mental gives us a perspective that would ordinarily be over powered in the physical. <P>From your writing I get a sense of your husband as a profoundly sad man. It’s almost like I can see him, you and your son. I know that my image is probably very off, but I just find it curious. Guess you are just communicating so strongly here.<P>I think you basically have a very good idea of what is going on in your marriage and with your husband. Since I am the last great optimist I believe that your marriage can be turned around. When it is, you and your husband will reconnect on a higher level then ever before. My H and I have experienced this and it is awesome.<P>At this point you can probably come very close to listing your H’s top 5 emotional needs. If you know what they are you can start filling them now. The trick is going to be to figure out how he wants them to be filled. Maybe you could have session with one of the MB counselors to help you with this. This will fill your account in his love bank. At this point he does not really need to work on the relationship. He only needs to be receptive enough to let you fill his needs. And slowly his heart will open up to you again.<P>One thing I believe strongly about marriage is that there are three “people” or entities involved… The husband, the wife and the relationship. The relationship is actually a fragile, living, breathing, spiritual entity that needs to be nurtured.<BR>Perhaps your next quest here is to figure out how to nurture your marriage, your husband and yourself. Right now the bulk of this will fall on your shoulders. If you believe in your marriage then maybe you can view it as an honor, a vocation. God willing you have an entire live time for this. Hope that does not sound corny. <P>What you need now is the “plan of action”. How are you going to pull the two of you through this until he is more willing to participate? It will not be easy. But I’ve heard that God does not give us more then we can handle. So He has a lot of faith in you.<P>One thing we all do is repeat the same darn actions over and over and get frustrated when we get the some old cruddy results. If in a relationship, one partner changes, the other is forced to change. If you radically changed your behavior, it would force your husband to respond. If you did this coming from the right place it could have a wondrous affect on things. Though you might not want to do it so fast that it scares him.<P>Dr. Laura says come to mind…. She tells people that when their marriage is going through a bad time to “act as though”. What she means is to behave as though it were the most perfect, happy marriage. Act as though everything is great between the two of you. And that over time it will be so. Her point is that when things are not going well, we tend to adjust our behavior and mindset to the negativity of the situation. And negativity breeds negativity. And conversely a positive attitude breeds positive things.<P>Another thing that she tells people, specifically people who have had affairs it that they must take their guilt and remorse and use it as the basis for loving their spouse even more. <P>The question is what is your plan of action now. How are you going to pull this off? Am I making any sense here? I only have the question right now. The short answer is you do it by “coming from love. If you come from love you will never, ever go wrong.” (Dr. Viscott) Perhaps we can work on this? <P>“Coming from love” is one that I use a lot, like a mantra. It has gotten me through this affair business. It puts things from a broader perspective and helps me see a situation my husband’s point of view too. When a situation is emotionally charged, I do not look for what my husband wants/needs or what I want/need. Instead I look for how I lovingly nurture our marriage.<P><BR>An aside ---------- <BR>“I think sometimes H thinks my "happy" demeanor means I don't feel guilty or remorseful about my affair. This is not the case. I just feel like I have to keep it all inside at this point, in order to keep going forward. I can't have the luxury of falling apart right now.”<P>You had a post asking for questions BS’s could like to have answered. I bet he’d like this one answered. I have not slept well since D-day, averaging about 4 hours of sleep a night. Sometimes I get angry with my H because of the hurt he’s caused me with his affairs. Here I cannot sleep and he sleeps like a baby. I’ve been in terrible emotional turmoil but he seems so calm. Like nothing ever happened. The only thing that keeps it from driving me totally over the edge is that I told him about my frustration with this. And he in turn told me what you said here. That he caused the pain and damage so he has to keep it together so that he can help me heal. He’s told me a lot about the pain and anguish he goes through because of what he did. This would be a very good topic for your journal.. He needs to know this. Maybe you have already told him, but I you think he still misinterprets your actions, then saying it one more time might be in order.<P>Gees, can you tell I cannot sleep?? Here I am rattling on. I hope this stuff makes sense.<P>Z<P><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Calla,<P>You said <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You've hit on each and every one of the issues we need to work out. The toughest thing for me is that my H also told me (during that same awful incident on Monday morning when I sat in his car) that he only reason he's still here in our house is because I've asked him to stay. He said he doesn't believe his feelings will change (the no more kids, no sex stuff). Although it hurt incredibly to hear him say that, a part of me wants to believe that he must think we have some chance of recovery or he wouldn't be sticking around. He would have already gotten an apartment and moved out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I read this statement as follows:<P>He is still strongly affected by you. He still wants to be with you or he wouldn't stay "because I've ask him to stay."<BR>However, he is trying to exert some control, hence no sex, no more children. He is trying to do something that makes him feel like a man, someone that people will listen to and respect. Quite frankly he doesn't feel you do listen to him and you don't respect him.<P>Perhaps, this is where you can start to work. Zorweb, made some very telling comments in her last post. He may not yet believe you really want it to work on other than your OWN terms: control again. So he is setting terms. <P>Note that one of the terms makes sense only as long as his sex drive is down due to all that has happened. It will come back and you will get you chances. The second term "no children" is very sensible. In fact, it makes so much sense I am surprised you don't agree with him. <P>You have a two year old, it is probably too soon to think of another child right now (personal taste on spacing not withstanding.) You have had an affair, having children to repair a marriage is a very very bad idea as you and he both know. So the word "never" should be taken within the context of the current situation. He is right. In the current state of his feelings, the state of the marriage further children seems sort of dumb. However, he can and might well change his mind. I would not operate on this premise, but be aware that it can happen.<P>So Calla it seems to me you need to become his friend again. You need to learn to talk with him again, in a peaceful way. You need to "respect" him and listen to his requests. I don't mean follow a request to jump in front of a truck , but one where he asks to be alone or perhaps shift a subject of discussion should be honored.<P>Somehow over the coming months you will have to show him you can be trusted. That there is something in his life upon which he can build. Like most BS's here he probably feels he is on shifting sand. <P>This all sounds good doesn't it??? But you asked before how to do it. Actually, in many of the posts on this thread you have been told many ways to do it. But as I looked at the posts again I think it comes down to just a few things.<P>1. Communicate with him your feelings and desires. Listen to his feelings and desires.<P>2. Listen, listen, listen to him. Did I say listen to him? I really mean it. When he talks listen. When you ask him a question, just sit there silently until he answers your question. Let the power of silence work for you, he will talk and answer, if you don't say anything. Don't clarify, modify, or add to any question you ask.<P>3. Tell him, as Zorweb and you discussed, how you feel about the affair, but be very honest.<P>4. Be aware and empathize with him about the control issue. He needs to find a way to gain control of his life again and he can do it through you. Not so much by controling you, but by you and he working together to address the things he feels so hopeless about: his job, your son, his life. Using #1& #2 should go a long way in this direction.<P>I also think that religion is a powerful way of regain your balance and control of your life. I don't know your and your H's religious upbring, but having something that you "believe" in does tend to provide the "bedrock" upon which to build a life and feel some sense purpose and direction. (this by the way is really all the control we ever get in life: a sense of purpose and direction) Right now he has lost his, help him find it.<P>But mostly hang in there. I agree with your paragraph that I quoted. He does still care, he does still want you in his life, but he cannot figure out where you are in his life.<P>Hope some of this rambling will help.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<BR>

JL,<BR>Did you read my post from Thursday night called "Pressing the Pause Button?" It's gotten pushed back a page or two, and I only got one response. I'm hoping you have or will take a look at it. Once again, you've made a lot of good points here. I realize my H is trying to regain some control over his life, and that I need to allow him to do that in whatever ways seem to work.<P>I'd love to be able to follow your advice about listening to him, but he hardly wants to talk!!! That's probably my main frustration at this point. We have no problem with day-to-day small talk, but my H NEVER comes to me and says "Hey, can we talk?" He does not seem to want to talk about anything: my affair, how we feel about each other, or what to do with our relationship. So I'm back to just giving him space...which is about the only thing I CAN do for him at this point.<P>You're also right about the question of children...I certainly realize now is not a good time to think of having another. It's just that if things were GOOD in our relationship now, this is when we always planned to start working on #2. (Son is 2 and a half...so we figured with trying time and 9 months of pregnancy, we'd wind up with 3 and a half or 4 years between the two...not bad spacing).<P>The sex issue worries me more than anything. We haven't had a good sex life in SO long. Usually it's the man who has the bigger sex drive, but not in our case. I seem to have a bigger desire both for sex and for other physical affection than my H does. It seems like our sex life never regained momentum after our son was born. Now, I realize children do impact one's sex life, but...ours took a real nosedive and never perked up. In retrospect, I attribute that to two things: I developed a thyroid problem and gained a lot of weight in the first year of our son's life, before I was diagnosed and got medication to correct it. My H admits that he was not attracted to me when I got heavier (this really hurt me, but I suppose I can understand it) And also, when our son was about 6 months old was when my H's "OW" began working at his company, and he admits that his attraction to her began almost instantly.<P>Since last fall, I've lost 16 pounds and have gone down two sizes. I have just one more size to go before I am the size I was when H and I first started dating seven years ago. I keep hoping that as I get "slinkier" my H will be attracted to me again. He has been forthcoming with compliments lately, and when I wear a new outfit, he tells me I look nice and that the weight loss is quite noticeable. Of course, this makes me feel great. I just wish he could want me.<P>I'll be honest here...this is my biggest issue of withdrawal from my OM. OM was VERY complimentary to me and told me I was beautiful, sexy, etc. on a regular basis. He also wanted to put his arm around me, hold my hand and was very physically affectionate. This meant more to me than the sex did. OM made me feel like a desirable woman again, and after being ignored and rejected by my H for so long, it was like rain on the desert. Obviously, this isn't the kind of thing I can say to my H, as I know it would hurt him and push him further away. But aside from the easy affection, there were so many other ways in which OM was not nearly as well-matched to me as my H. And throughout my A, I never stopped hoping my H would change and start wanting me again.<P>I don't know how most affairs begin, but I know in mine, the OM spent a lot of time listening to me recount all my troubles with my H, and let me cry on his shoulder. He started as my friend and then...well, you know how this story goes. Very often OM was even jealous of the things I would say about my H, because he knew that I did love him and wanted his love for me to return.<P>I feel like I'm digressing here...but what I was saying was I know that I have to take things slow with my H and just try to be his friend right now. And quite possibly you'll say I'm being selfish, but I can't help that I feel lonely and wonder if I'll ever again have a man in my life who loves and wants me. I hate sleeping alone. I am a hugger, a hand-holder, a back-rubber. If it werent' for my son's sticky kisses and bear hugs, I'd be living totally without affection of any kind. And honestly, it's killing me. I love my H. I want him back. But I don't know where my breaking point is, how long I can stand to live in this void with no love coming back to me.<P>As for God, I wish He could help. My H has never had strong spiritual convictions. He has questions about God...who God really is...how does he really work, etc. I know that the events of late have made him question his beliefs even more. I certainly believe in God (raised in the Lutheran church), and consider myself a spiritual person. I know I prayed a lot in the months preceeding my A, and even after it started, asking for guidance to get me through that darkness and do the right things. I'll admit I haven't been prayign much lately. I guess I feel like God has just forgotten about me and doesn't plan to help me out of this situation. I've been thinking that maybe if I can get H to accompany me, it would be nice for the three of us to set foot in a church once in awhile.<P>Well, I realize I've written a book so I'll stop here and go shopping for father's day gifts for my dad and H's dad. I want to thank you again from the bottom of my heart for thinking so much about me. I am just amazed at how much help I have gotten here. Thank God for the internet!!!<P>calla<P>PS. Zorweb, if you're reading this, your reply will be a little later...<P>

Calla,<P>I just have to put my 2 cents in to your response to JL because something really hit me in it.<P>You tell us a lot more in this response about your H’s withholding affection and sex. This is one of the cruelest forms an emotional abuse that a person can perpetrate. From what you say, it predates your affair. So the assumption people have made here that he is using it as a way to gain control over HIS life after your affair does not hold water. I go back to the thought that his anger predates your affair and it is the cause of his withholding. This has nothing to do with you. He is punishing you for who knows what. You say that after your pregnancy you were about 20 lbs up. I know that for some men physical appearance is important.. But 20 lbs is not the end of the world. Men do not stop loving the mother of their children for a reasonable amount of weight gain. As you pointed out, it was caused by a thyroid problem. Pregnancy causes this in many women (it’s because our medical profession still does not recognize that women need higher level of iodine during pregnancy.. but that’s an other soap box.). And now you are solving it with the help of the proper medical attention. So did your husband not really mean the “in sickness and in health” part of your wedding vows? Did he edit that out? If your husband withdrew emotionally and sexually from you prior to your affair.. The he shares in responsibility for the affair. Yes you made the choice but you are also human with needs.<P>The reason I am so hot and bother is this. In my previous marriage, my husband did the exact same thing. I had a terrible pregnancy that ended in the stillbirth of twins. I came out of the pregnancy with thyroid problems and the depression from hell. And for some reason I was not recovering physically. We now know that it was because I had renal tuberculosis. It was the cause of the entire bad pregnancy, etc. Several months after I was recreating from the chemo to cure the TB, still not myself but getting stronger emotionally and physically. When I thought things were going rather well. My XH announced to me that we would never be intimate with me again be cause I did not meet his expectation… a 20lb weight gain, did not clean the house to his expectations, did not cook meals with the right spices, etc etc etc. Now the fact that I was working full time to support our son and my husband through medical school did not count. The fact that I did it despite my ill health meant nothing to this man. I was imperfect and he deserved the perfect wife. When he told me this I was shocked but was sure that with time we’d work it out. Well I kept working harder to make myself more perfect in his eyes.. But I found that each time I improved one thing he added two the to list of imperfections. When I left him seven years later, he had lived up to his word. He had not touched, hugged or kissed me in 7 years. I was so emotionally starved that I still marvel that I did not have an affair. As much as I am against affairs I felt that I would have been justified. I had opportunity believe me. The only reason I did not is that I had watched what one of my sister’s went through when she had an affair and I did not want that for myself. I realized that an affair would hurt me. It would have probably hurt me more then it would have hurt him. And it would have given him ammunition to further abuse me. Of course he was taking care of his own sexual needs by having affairs.<P>Sorry, this was going to be short but now I find myself venting at your expense. I’ve not been this angry about my XH’s lack of affection for a very long time.<P>I am sorry, but your H as a very large dose of responsibility for you affair. You said that you have not told him that you affair was more about emotional support, being listened to, your feeling attractive/desirable, and a shoulder to lean on then it was about anything else? Why have you not told him this? It is the most important thing he needs to know. Then if knowing this he is unwilling to fill those needs for you, you need to start taking care of yourself. Both spouses have an obligation to fill these needs for each other. When you married you both promised to be exclusive that was in exchange for having your needs met by each other. He is breaking one of the most fundamental foundations of marriage. <P>It seems that your husband needs space right now. You can do little else but give it to him. If you are always there when he is willing to talk and don’t pester him to talk then perhaps he will start trusting to talk to you. I find with my kids that if I ask them point blank how they are doing, they clam up. If on the other hand I engage them in a light conversation they will start spilling their guts. The openness has to come from him. Nurture him in any small way he will let you. Over time he may come to let you closer.<P>What would his response be if you said something like.. “I would really like to go on a walk. Would you keep me company?” If he is willing to, then go on the walk and just talk about the summer flowers, the weather, anything but the two of you. Start building intimacy slowly, in baby steps. I realize that you might already be doing this so please forgive me if I’m preaching to the choir.<P>So while you are waiting for him to come to his sense, start working on yourself. Sometimes that it all we can do. <P>RE: “The sex issue worries me more than anything. We haven't had a good sex life in SO long.”<P>A couple can get out of the habit of being intimate. It is something to be concerned with. There are books and counselors out there that can help with rekindling the habit. You might want to start looking into those. They may have some very good suggestions on small things you can do.<P>Tell him what the affair meant to you. Put it in your journal so he can read it. He is being very very cruel. It is a passive aggressive way to hurt you. <P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Zorweb,<BR>Seven years with no physical affection!!! How on earth did you ever do it??!! I can't imagine it. In my case, things have only been like this for the past year and a half, and to me THAT much was unbearable. And also, my H didn't stop things completely...he would still initiate sex once every six weeks or so (once a month if I was lucky). But, as I said somewhere else here or in another posting, it was weird, mechanical sex with no kissing...I felt like he was "there" only in body, and not really enjoying it. ICK!<P>And he stopped ALL the other affectionate gestures unless I forced them. Never any spontaneous hugs or kisses, no putting his hand on my knee in the car like he used to. We used to be teased at family get-to-gethers because we were so "lovey-dovey," always draped all over each other on the sofas and chairs, always snuggling and kissing no matter who else was around. In an oddly prophetic remark made right after the New Year began, my sister-in-law (H's older sister) commented while looking at a family photo album of the past year..."You guys must be an old married couple now, there aren't any pictures of you two glued at the hip anymore." And she was right: I looked through the album, and there were hardly any photos with both of us in them, let alone being cuddly.<P>My H USED to be almost as affectionate as me. It definitely began changing at that time period when our son was about six months old. Except for the reasons I mentioned earlier, I can't account for his apparent loss of desire. In the few (four or five sessions) of marriage counseling we went to, my H stated to the counselor that he felt he just didn't "need" sex anymore, that his sexual peak had occured in the first couple years of our relationship, and that he was "past all that now." (!!!) The counselor definitely found this unusual for a guy of just 30 years of age. For me to hear that was just devastating...here's my H telling me he has no interest at all in having better or more frequent sex with me.<P>Wow, I still can't believe you endured what you did in your previous marriage. Did you continue putting your H through medical school??? How did you cope with no sex or affection?? All I can say is you must have had other EN's that he was meeting to stay in that situation so long. And what an awful pregancy loss for you to endure as well...Z, you must be a very strong woman!!<P>Yes, I thought it was shallow that my H's love for me could be so affected by my weight gain...it really hurt. But, I guess one of my H's big EN's is an attractive spouse, which I suppose I wasn't measuring up to. Also, a few of my H's old girlfriends from before me were models. Back when my H was in full "art-mode", he seemed able to get very attractive women. I guess pretty women are probably flattered by a guy who can paint and draw and photograph them. It was somewhat intimidating to me at first that he had dated such beauties. I've always been told I'm "pretty," but I never considered myself up there in the same league (looks-wise) as his EXs.<P>My H is a "cute" guy. He's not very tall. He has a very boyish look, which I've always loved. But certainly he's not drop-dead gorgeous by most women's standards. Mel Gibson he ain't, but apparently that never affected his ability to get "choice" women!<P>It made me smile to read your last post...I could feel your feathers ruffling as you rose to defend me, much like my friends and my mom did when I told them the same things about H losing his desire/attraction to me. Yep, I thought exactly what you did about the "in sickness and health" stuff, the "for better or worse" stuff. I thought, if all it takes is my gaining a few pounds to make him not want me...what kind of man is he, really? But in truth, I believe (as do you) that there's more to it than that. <P>You see, since I got caught in an affair, I don't have a leg to stand on to ask him about his "in sickness and health" vows. Because I broke my vows of fidelity, I don't have the right to question his faithfulness to his vows. At least, that's how he looks at it. <P>The evening of our d-day, my H called me from work, which he almost never does. His voice sounded strange, tense. He said, "Do you have something to tell me, something to confess?" I felt my heart sink into my stomach, and my knees went weak. I knew what he was about to say...but what I didn't know was that he had installed software on our computer that tracked every keystroke of my emails to OM for the last few days. <P>"How long have you been sleeping with him?" H asked, and I said, "How did you know?" He told me what he'd done, and I started crying. I asked him to please leave work right away and come right home so we could talk. He agreed. I called my Mom to see if she could watch son, and dropped him off at her place. When I got back, H was here, standing in the kitchen. He opened his arms to me, and I just fell into his embrace. He held me for a long time, then he made us each a stiff cocktail, and we sat down to talk.<P>After I told him everything,(at least everything he wanted to know) he sat quietly for a few minutes and then said, "I know I encouraged it." That's the extent to which he accepts any responsibility for my affair. He hasn't said anything like that since then. All he says in relation to my A is "I don't know how you could do that to me," and "I don't know if I can forgive you."<P>What you said about getting him to talk is absolutely correct. I can't initiate discussions about any "big" issues, I have to sneak them into less intimidating coversations to get him to talk. I'm quite good at that game. And yes, I am trying to spend more quality alone time with him. We also spend almost no "family time" together with our son. I can't tell you the last time the three of us went to a restaurant or to a park together, or had a picnic.<P>My H just remarked about how much time I've been spending at the computer lately, (I've showed him this forum, but he doesn't seem interested). I said, "I'm almost finished here, just talking to one of my friends." His reply..."Yeah, well, we know how that worked out last time."<P>***************<P>calla<P>

Calla,<P>This is very long.. You got me thinking about my previous marriage and I wanted to explain how I was able to live with the lack of intimacy and why I did. I feel a need to explain because it embarrasses me, because I cannot believe I lived with that for so long. I feel that way even though I know why I did. Basically I tried to leave but the courts would not let me take my son with me without my XH's permission. I could not abandon my son. So that’s the real short story… the following is a longer version of it. I will understand if you don’t want to read through all of it… <P>You asked “How on earth did you ever do it??!! “ I wanted to go a little more in depth about because…. Why I stayed so long in by previous marriage. <P>After that day when my XH said he’d never touch me again I really did not believe him. Like I said earlier I went through a period where I was trying something like the Plan A suggested here. Tried to be a wonderful loving wife, improve myself, etc. Thinking that eventually he would stop his running around and try to rebuild our marriage. Since he was in medical school he was gone a lot of the time. So I became very self-sufficient. At the time I owned software-consulting business and basically single parented our son. I have a very high sex drive, higher then my XH’s. So the lack of affection and intimacy in my marriage was hard on me. I drug him to counseling where he told the counselor that he did not want to work on our marriage. He was only staying for our son. When three years had passed it was obvious that he meant what he said. So I went to counseling to work on myself after that. At that point I found some letters and other evidence of as affair. It was not the first one, but the most blatant one. To make matters worse he’d been very verbally abusive and was getting more and more physically abuse as time went on. I’d had it and told him so. His response was that if I wanted out of the marriage then I could leave with nothing but the cloths on my back. Well, I was not going to leave my son with him. Almost everything in the house was mine before we got married.. So it was my sole property. I got a lawyer, rented an apartment and moved out with our son one day when he was at school. <P>Well, I found out that doctors (even those in training) are treated differently by the courts then we mere mortals. He raised holy cane to the judge, got an emergency court hearing. Told the judge that he had no clue why I moved out, that he loved me and never did any of the things I as accusing him of. Turns out that the judge we had, a woman, favors the man in most divorce cases. She chewed me out about having said terrible things about this wonderful man who was only trying to love me. She ordered that my divorce petition be cealed from the public record because we could not allow such terrible lies to be in public record about doctor. She then ordered me to return our son to the family home. Since my H was living there that meant the he had custody by default. Now mind you, this was the guy he was home only about one night a week. I knew that what would happen was that he’d have his mother take care of our son. Our son was 3 at the time. I’d seen my MIL kick him, hit him and spit at him, and call him filthy names. There was no way I was going to allow my son to go into this situation. I begged my XH to let me return to the house with our son. He finally agreed and moved into his mothers. Two weeks later he moved back into the house with me. He told me that if I wanted to leave to be his guest. Well, I did not have the courts backing. My XH would not let me leave with our son so I could not take him. I was stuck so I stayed. I told my XH that I would no longer be a victim in my own home. That if he could not treat me well and be a husband he could leave.<P>His OW moved out of town. We started going to counseling. Over time, say about 6 months, things started to get better. We started to have fun, in MB terms he was filling my love bank again and much to my surprise I was falling in love with him again. Actually what I said earlier was not completely true. I was keeping it simple to make the story shorter. At about the 6-month period our counselor suggested that we start getting some sex therapy to but that back in our lives. By then I was afraid to let him close to me because I did not want to be hurt again. Right before his great announcement about no more intimacy, he had begun to actually hurt me during intimacy. I was afraid of him. So anyway, I still wanted our marriage to work, was falling for him again, he seemed like the guy I’d married once more. So we started the therapy. There was about a 3-month period where we started to be intimate again. It was wonderful. I felt that we were going to beat this horrible thing we’d been through. <P>Then one day, right after we left our counseling appointment, he announced to me that he was done with this stupid counseling crap. It was the biggest waist of his time…. Yada yada yada. And just like that the mean, cold man had returned. I was devastated. That was the end of our physical recovery – it had lasted barley 3 months. So over the next 3 years things got worse. He got meaner and more withdrawn. He was always “out”. Actually I think that what saved me is that we was always out. <P>I found myself caught in a catch 22. I could not leave him until he gave me permission to take my son with me. I would not abandon my son. What I finally decided was that I had a two-option strategy. On the one hand I take my marriage vows very seriously. If he ever came to me and said that he want to seriously work on our marriage, then I would give it all I could. As long as he was willing to work on things I’d stay forever and work with him. I told him this very clearly a few times. He knew I was always willing to work on things. On the other hand, I knew that realistically he would never get to that point so I had an exit plan. My plan was that the first time he gave me permission to leave with our son I was out of there. <P>You asked how I coped. I figured that whether I stayed or went, I needed to be the best person I could be. So I did a lot of soul searching, counseling, etc. Then I got very busy between my company, being on the board of my son’s school, friends, 5 mile daily walk a group of friends, was “den mom” to all of the kids in our neighborhood. I surrounded myself with people who I loved and who loved me. (My XH hated all of them, they were like so beneath him.) I had to shut down the physical part of myself and that was hard. I’ve suffered a lot for having done that. This was not easy so I buried myself in being busy and giving out as much love as I could to the people around me. I felt that my son had to have at least one sane parent. One parent who was solid. I strove to be that parent.<P>And yes I did keep paying for his medical school. I supported us because I was not going to do anything less for my son. XH just stayed and took advantage of the free ride. We had already paid off our cars so there were no payments there. As for the tuition, books, lab fees, etc. We had put aside the cash to cover this before he stared medical school. He managed to move that money into his name and his mother’s name before I knew what he did. He always kept all of his financial papers at her house so I had no access to those records. So he had already swiped the money to cover his schooling. It was out of my control. <P>In 1996, as his residency was winding down, things started to get better. He was the one talking about fixing things, about our future together now that he was done with school and residency. Things were starting to get better. Then out of the blue, one day he announced that he wanted a divorce and I could take our son. I was shocked but felt I needed to take the open door. I moved out with our son. A few months later he and his lawyer exercised their plan. My XH kidnapped our son from school and fled. His lawyer was at the courthouse filing custody papers saying that I had abandoned my XH and our son. The papers gave my XH full custody. Cute trick huh? The only problem was that my attorney and I had anticipated this move. (You see I am not as stupid as my XH thinks I am. He he)<P>Since he kidnapped our son, then in 2nd grade, from the school grounds the school pressed charges against him and so did I. The judge threw out the custody papers his attorney filed. I had figure all along that his plan was to get rid of me by telling me I could take our son and then he was going to try to grab him back. His evil plan backfired. I now have primary custody. After the kidnapping incident he was given only one day a week with our son. Over time, with court ordered counseling, he has earned more time. It has cost me thousands of dollars to maintain primary custody but I feel that it is in my son’s best interest. He is now with his father 40% of the time. <P>So there is the sordid story of my previous marriage. The short version of course. It's weird but this forum is forcing me to go back and deal with it on a new level. It's making me look at that marriage to evaluate what it meant to my personal growth and me. It was a hard thing to go through. But I came out a stronger person. I have a much better handle on who I am. Sometimes I think that staying as long as I did says some really bad things about me. But I’d do it again for my son. I would not, could not, leave my child to be raised by my XH and his mother. My XH was physically and emotionally abusive to our son. If my XH had never let me take our son, I would have stayed until our son was 18 and could move out on his own. I had to protect him from his father.. it was the only choice I had.<P>I am not any stronger then anyone else. But just like everyone else, somehow I seem to muddle through what life throws at me. And hopefully, once in a while I actually do the right thing or something almost brilliant. Not often but maybe once in a while.<P>Today I have a beautiful son who is very well adjusted. His father has had to change for the better because it was the only way the courts would let him see his son. He’s still not perfect but it’s better. <P>I’m remarried to a man I love dearly and who I believe loves me deeply too. Yes there are problems but we are in recovery. And this time the good lord blessed me with a man who is very physically affectionate. We are working on helping me make up for all those lost years. (Isn’t he so very sweet? Hee hee.. I love it.)<P>If you are still reading….. Sorry for the long tale.. it just started pouring out….<P>Boy is this good therapy or what? And it's free!!!<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare<p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited June 17, 2001).]

JL and Zorweb (and anyone else),<BR>Last night there was a pivotal conversation, but not in a good way.<P>Remember those photocopied pictures I found in one of his sketchbooks of the "OW"? Well, last night I discovered an expensive pearl necklace (a gift from H when our son was born) was missing from my bedroom. After searching all over, I ran downstairs in a panic and told H it was missing. He said "I'm missing something, too."<P>He felt that I had invaded his privacy by taking the pictures out of his sketchbook. On the day I confronted him about them, I didn't tell him I'd found them, I just asked him (admittedly angry and hurt) "About how many pictures, photos, drawings or other kinds of images of OW do you have?"<P>Of course, that tipped him off that I had discovered the pictures and so he retaliated by taking my pearls. I reminded him that his sketchbooks have always been "public" and that he's never minded before when I looked at them. I told him that i had taken the pictures out because I was hurt by them. How would he feel if I had pictures of OM all over the place?<P>Well, that led us into a discussion...H says that he can't be an artist with me in his life because he can't paint what he wants: women. He said he had brought home the pictures of OW to use as reference for paintings he wants to do. My heart fell...down, down into my feet. He says he wants to paint her. And he says he'd like to have other women come and model for him, sometimes nude. But that he knows this would freak me out to much and I would be too insecure about it. I could not "accept" the artist's life he wants to create.<P>I thought about it and he's right. It would kill me to see him making paintings of OW, the woman he'd rather be with than me. And as I said before, I suffered a lot of insecurity about his previous girlfiends (who were the subjects of much artwork) when we first began dating. I told him that if I knew he loved me, and I felt good about our relationship, it wouldn't bother me if he wanted to paint other women. He said, "Yes it would. You couldn't deal with it or trust me."<P>He's right, I know he's right. Especially after this obsession with OW, and his rejection of me physically, I am now probably more insecure than I ever was before. And the sad thing is, I felt I had gotten through most of that crippling insecurity years ago. As our relationship matured and deepened, I felt very safe and secure in our love, and all those old pictures didn't bother me. But maybe in truth, it wasn't that I got over my insecurity...maybe it was just that he stopped painting shapely naked women all the time.<P>I don't know what I can do about this. Things like this reinforce my sense of helplessness. I can't change what he wants to paint, he can't do anything to erase my insecurities. He was vey angry at me when we were discussing my taking the pictures of OW out of the sketchbook. That's when he said, "Ill be getting my own place. You can't give me any privacy."<P>For the first time ever, I said. "Okay. If that's what you want...go ahead." The part of me that just wants all this pain to end took over. He seemed surprised. But then, oddly, later in the conversation, he repeated the thing he's been saying for the past several weeks..."I have no problem staying here with you in this house, but I don't want to be close to you." So does that mean he's getting an apartment, or what???<P>He says he just can't forgive my affair. That he can't touch me again because all he can think of is me having sex with another man. I'm starting to think that he is just one of those people who can't get over it. He is not willing to try. I asked him why he stopped reading SAA and he said the book kept repeating the same ideas over and over...he did not find it helpful. He made it to page 73.<P>I talked (or should I say cried) a lot to him about the A last night as well. I told him how bad my guilt was, how I had been trying to end that relationship when I was caught. Before I was discovered, I was prepared to leave my job to get away from OM. I told him that I didn't want OM, I wanted him...and that's why I never tried to leave my marriage. It wasn't what I wanted. I just needed to feel loved and OM made me feel that way. It wasn't OM I wanted, it was how he made me feel. My H listened carefully to all I said (how come I always cry so much and he never does?) but he still came back to the issue of being unable to forgive me.<P>I guess his love for me was already so depleted before he discovered my A, that he doesn't have enough left to rebuild on. And yet...earlier in the evening, before all this transpired, we had walked with our son to the carnival in town...shared cotton candy...got on kiddie rides with son...played games and won some goldfish and had a really fun evening together, the first family activity in ages. I felt SO POSITIVE about everything, and then after son was asleep, this talk began...<P>Now today I feel numb again. I'm trying to fight the feeling of wanting to just give up. I couldn't sleep last night imagining him wanting to paint OW...and knowing he's right, that I won't be able to get over that. This hurts so much. I want my family so badly, nothing is as important as this. But where can we possibly go from here?<P>Thanks for being here for me...<P>calla<P>PS Zorweb, thanks for telling your amazing story. I'm glad it was therapeutic for you...feel free to keep going with it if you wish.

Calla,<P>I having trouble coming up with the right words here to express the sadness I feel for you this morning. You must be having a terrible time of it today. (((((((((((hug))))))))))))<P>I’ve been contemplating your post all morning. Hope you don’t mind but I discussed it with my H at breakfast too. I wanted to get a man’s perspective of the situation. He posts here on MB too as “SeenTheLight”. He was a BS in his previous marriage and is a WS in our marriage. So he can see things from a different perspective. He and I read and discuss many of the posts on MB. We find it is helping us in our recovery.. we are learning a lot about ourselves and each other this way. <P>I’ve got a longer response to you in progress. Will work on it today and get it out to you as soon as I can. This month my H has been home on weekends only. And this weekend we are also without children. All three of our kids are with their other parents. So we are taking advantage of this special time together. Father’s day without his kids… But he’s doing ok. So between times with him, I’m working on your response. In a bit we are headed to a music festival at the state fair grounds.<P>My short response is that two wrongs do not make a right. Your H is being cruel, he was being cruel before your affair. I believe you hit the nail on the head when you said that by the time you had the affair he did not have enough love left to forgive you and repair your marriage. I am so very sorry.<P>Despite the fact that I have never seen you, I know that you are a beautiful woman and person. You have found out that you are still a desirable woman. That is what your affair was about. As wrong as your affair was, you do no deserve to be treated this way. <P>Be good to yourself today. Nurture yourself and your son. Please keep us posted on how you are doing.<P>Till later…. ((((((((hug))))))))<P>Z <P><BR>P.S. Thanks for reading my very long post. I can hardly believe you took the time this morning with all that is going on in your life. This has all stirred up so much in me that I was up all night working through the old issues. I think this is baggage that I've brought into my new marriage and I have to get rid of it. So thanks for bringing me to this point.<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Calla, <P>I hope you are doing ok.. am a little worried about you.<P>About the pearl/photo incident…..<P>You took some photos that were in his portfolio. In retaliation he took the expensive pearls he gave you when your son was born. Think of the symbolism here. One of two things could be going on. <P>He feels that the photos are as valuable to him as the birth of his son. <BR> Or<BR>He is so angry that he has gotten to be very vengeful. You commit an imaginary $5 infraction and he extracts a $1000 penalty. This is pure vengeance. If this is the case then he is really really angry. He really wants to hurt you. But you already knew this. <P>If you have not, return the photos and then ask for your necklace back. <P>Maybe you could explain to him that you took the photos because you were missing something first… Your husband. You took the photos because you were trying to find him and thought they might lead you to him.<BR> <BR>Your husband’s reaction to you having found the photos and asking about them is very much the way many WS react when found out. He is totally ignoring the fact that the photos hurt you. Or maybe he is not ignoring it; maybe he likes the feeling of vengeance it gives him. <P>RE: “H says that he can't be an artist with me in his life because he can't paint what he wants: women.”<P>There are many married artists who paint women, naked or otherwise. But there is nothing sexual going on. What strikes me is that from what you have said, your husband has always combined his art with his sex life. Am I on track here? Is that why it bothers you so much? Is he really saying here that what he wants are other women in his life? Are women the only subject he is interested in? That is what would bother me about what he wants to do. If things were going well between the two of you, perhaps the two of you could negotiate certain parameters under which he could utilize models. But while you marriage is on thin ground I could see why this would be unacceptable to you.<P>Of course you “could not "accept" the artist's life he wants to create.. “. Of course it “ would freak me out to much.” You are insecure because you husband does nothing to help you feel secure in your marriage. At this point he has given you no reason to trust him. He has been having at least an EA for 1 ½ years now and rubs your nose in it ever chance he gets.<P>Does he think he can make a living with his art or is this a hobby? He is willing to give up his family for this? There are many artists who somehow feel that their art is of the highest power, perhaps spiritual. While I understand the artistic personality, as I am one too, I do not understand trashing those you are supposed to love for it. Where is the spirituality in that?<P><BR>RE: “How would he feel if I had pictures of OM all over the place? “<P>My bet is that your H would not like it at all if you had pictures of OM around. Your husband is missing a very important point here. The very basis of all of this. He has been having an emotional affair since before you had your affair. His affair may or may not include another person. It may or may not be physical. But from what you said, he does tell her things, share some intimate conversation with her. He says that she is engaged and not interested in him. People who are engage have affairs too.. Emotional and physical. That fact that she is engaged is not any assurance that she is not involved on some level with your H. But, lets for a moment, for the sake of this conversation assume that the entire affair is his imagination. There are three aspects of affairs that are the most damaging: dishonesty, the redirection of emotional and sexual energy away from the marriage, and alienation of the WS from the BS. Your H is having an emotional affair whether or not another person is involved. And the more I hear of your story I would bet that there is involvement on her part at some level. She is probably encouraging the attention and admiration at the very least. <BR>You say, “He can't do anything to erase my insecurities”. Yes he could, you yourself said that when things were solid between you, you felt secure. No one could fee secure in your current situation. He could help build your feelings of security by working with you to the foundation of you relationship. <P>As for the privacy issue....Have you read the books by Dr. Harley? He says that there is no room for “privacy” in a marriage. When you have tied your entire existence to another person there is no room for a secret part of their life. Everything a one spouse does affects the other. So don’t let him throw that smoke screen at you. (Another part of the fog.)<P>RE: "Ill be getting my own place. You can't give me any privacy." Then ..."I have no problem staying here with you in this house, but I don't want to be close to you."<BR>What a message.. If you don’t let me have my secret life, if you don’t let me walk all over you I’m leaving. Gee what a choice he is offering you. Perhaps it is time for you to let him go. You know the old saying that if you love someone. Let them go. Then if they come back you will know that they truly love you. It may be time to do that. And if he comes back, then accept him back on your terms only … the MB principles come to mind.<P>We have discussed before that your H seems to feel that he has little control over his life. So he is exercising control in very hurtful ways. You have been Plan A’ing him for a while. It may be time for Plan B. Tell him to go and seek his fulfillment in art and what ever else. Let him try living for a while without your filling his Ens. I think he will find that you are a bigger presence in his life then he wants to admit. I’ve seen so many people do this. Throw all caution to the wind to pursue their mistress (the mistress being art, or writing, or music) and in the end they find that it could not stand the light of day any more then any other affair can. <P>Remember the reasons for Plan A and Plan B. If I recall correctly Plan A give the BS time to negotiate for the WS to have no contact with the OP and to set up the rules for continuing the marriage. It also give the BS time to come to terms with the situation should the WS decide to continue the affair and contact. It is time to move to plan B when the negotiation does not work and the pain of plan A is too much for the BS to continue and before the BS’s love bank is totally empty.<P>The purpose of Plan B is to shelter the BS from the pain while the WS works out what they are going to do so that their love bank does not get deplete as quickly. It also gives the BS time to grow into a separate life if that is the course that things will take. It is time to end Plan B when the BS has no more love for the WS.<P>Only you can decide when the right time is to go to Plan B. It is my opinion that the time is near.<P>Your H may feel that he has not control over his life but he is the one who is making it so. Sure you had an affair, but in response to his EA and cruel treatment of you. He is exercising control in a very hurtful manner. <P>What I see going on here is that he is in the “fog”. He thinks he wants a life without you and your son. But he is too spineless to make the move on his own. So he is trying to push you into being the bad guy. He’s already had some success. His inattention drove you to an affair. Now don’t get me wrong, I do not condone any affair but as Dr. Harley says they are in response to deep-seated problems in a marriage. So now in his mind he is immaculate and you are the bad guy. Now he is pushing you to end the marriage by kicking him out. Then he can feel ok.. you had an affair and then kicked him out. He was just an innocent, loving husband. <P>Put the responsibility for this back in his court. Let him have control over his own life … tell him that he can either stay and be a full husband to you, work on your problems, etc. and pursue his art in the healthy manner in the context of your marriage; or he can pursue his dreams and other women on his own. Give him the permission and power to make his own choice. Do not let him continue to make you the bad guy.<P>He needs to realize that BOTH of you had affairs, that he is not lily white in this. I think that your assessment that he does not have enough love left to forgive you by the time you had your affair may be right. Or maybe it’s just that he has love left but one part of him wants to leave to be free again. So he feels he can accomplish this by pushing you into making the decision. I think that there may very well be a part of him that loves you very much still. That part is probably fighting the part of him that wants to do this selfish thing. It is an internal battle that only he can fight. My H talks about a similar thing going on with him when he was involved in his affairs. He said it was almost like an out-of-body experience. One part of him could sit back and watch this evil part of him doing things he never thought he was capable of. I think of it as his falling out of grace with himself. Thank goodness that his better half won. Some people here call that “evil” side and alien who abducted their spouse.<P>I wonder if you H cannot forgive you because it just does not suit the purpose of the alien who as abducted him.<BR>RE: I couldn't sleep last night imagining him wanting to paint OW...and knowing he's right, that I won't be able to get over that.”<P>I think you cannot get over “that” because your H does not only want to paint other women. He is obsessed with them. It is a sexual fantasy as much as an artistic one. Why should you get over it at this point? He gives you no reason to feel secure or loved in your marriage. Your husband has been having at least an EA for almost two years now. He needs to come to the realization that this is the case and that he is trying to make you the bad guy here. <P>I hope you are doing better then yesterday. My heart goes out to you. Please keep us posted.<P>Z<P><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Zorweb,<BR>Thanks for your concern...I'm doing okay today so far today. As usual, you are incredibly insightful about my situation. I, too wondered why he chose to take my pearls as opposed to any other possession. And I wonder the same thing you do--if they symbolize how important those pictures are to him, or if he just wanted to take something of mine he knew I would certainly miss.<P>I keep thinking about the issues with him painting other women. And I truly believe that if our marriage was healthy and solid, I wouldn't care how many beautiful women he painted...AS LONG AS HE WASN'T IN LOVE WITH ANY OF THEM!!! But of course, here's where my insecurity looms large...I already know that the person he MOST wants to paint right now is someone for whom he has deep feelings. And yes, to a degree, his sexuality seems to be very tied to his art. When he's in love, he wants to paint the object of his affection. His art also seems to be tied to his sexuality in that he is a more sexual person when he's heavily involved in art. He seems to FEEL more sexual when he's being creative, which I suppose is a natural by-product of feeling happy and fulfilled.<P>I came up with an idea last night while I was in bed waiting for sleep to come. I think I'll put an ad in the newspaper soliciting models to pose for an artist. I'll have the respondees call in evening hours when my H is at work, and I'll ask them to send photos of themselves, addressed to me. When I've collected several samples, I'll show them all to H and say, "Pick any one you want. Tell me when you want to schedule her to come over, I'll set it up." I'll beat him at his own game. I'll take control of the situation and I'll show him that I will support what he wants to do...then what can he say? <P>As for his OW...I can't figure a way to get myself around that one. There is just no way I can let him fill canvases with images of a woman that he would replace me with. That's the only way his art makes me feel insecure. Knowing as I do that he most wants to paint subjects he is emotionally connected to. I guess that's where he could say that I am squelching his creative spirit, if I can't let him paint OW. But, like you said, I have to draw the line somewhere. There's a whole world of stuff to paint out there. And he needs to have some respect for the feelings of those he is (supposed to) love...namely, ME.<P>I am pretty well confused on the issue of whether or not he loves me, and to what degree. He maintains that, prior to discovering my affair, he still "loved me, but was not in love with me." (Whatever!) Then, after d-day, he said that even that feeling left him. So I guess according to him, he's got no love left. And yet...I think you may be right about him being confused about his feelings. Yesterday after giving him his father's day gift and a card (from son), we were getting in the car to make the two hour drive to see H's father. He leaned over and KISSED ME! Now, we're not talking big passionate kiss, but it was a small gesture of affection that came totally from him.<P>I have thought many times exactly what you said about H trying to make ME the bad guy. I've even gone so far as to think he actually wanted me to have an affair because without that, he didn't have a solid reason to leave me in good conscience. And even now...he knows how badly I want us to work and so he can use that to stay here and keep our relationship on HIS terms. He actually has quite a bit of control here now. He can keep me at arm's length and not actively work on our marriage...and I allow it to be that way because at least we're still together.<P>And I have tried not to push it too much because everyone here keeps telling me to "give him space." At first he said he needed time to "decide if he wanted to stay in the marriage or not." Well, I could buy that. But it's now been two months since d-day. I think that's plenty of time to assess the situation and decide to recommit or not. Now I just feel like I'm being pulled along for the ride. I could do what you suggest and tell him "If you are going to continue to live here with me, then you must actively recommit to our relationship and work on the marriage. If you can't do that, then you need to move out." I realize that he could very well just decide to move out...which may be permanent, or perhaps not, depending on what he discovers about himself while he's out on his own.<P>But, the alternative is just to live in limbo for who knows how long. And what good is just "giving him time and space," anyway? Nothing is changing in that time. Time itself doesn't heal or change anything...it's what you do with the time that changes things. He's not going to come to any profound realization while he's living here with me as a roomate, and not even trying to move forward. And yet... I can't seem to confront my fear that he WILL actually decide to leave and push the issue. I wonder what it will take for me to do that?<P>Last night after son was asleep, we sat on the couch together and watched a movie, and he let me give him a long backrub. It's funny, he's always enjoyed my backrubs and massages, and as he stopped wanting to have sex with me, I began offering them more often because it gave me a way to still be able to touch him affectionately. He never volunteers to return the favor, though.<P>I guess I'll stop for now...H seems very annoyed with the amount of time I spend here. He says "Did you get any new responses from your boyfriend?" I told him I talk to both men and women, but he still has the attitude. Oh well. Right now this is the only thing that helps me.<P>thanks Z, hope you are having a good day and hope to hear from you again soon. <P>calla

Calla,<P><BR>RE: “He's not going to come to any profound realization while he's living here with me as a roommate, and not even trying to move forward.”<P>Yep, you are right. He has gotten comfortable in the current situation. He does have control.. An unhealthy type of control but control none the less. You will have to upset the apple cart to get him to take another route.<P>RE: “I can't seem to confront my fear that he WILL actually decide to leave and push the issue. I wonder what it will take for me to do that?”<P>I think the way you confront them is by being strong enough to put them aside. The example that comes to mind is that if you fear that you will loose your financial support if he leaves… then go back to working full time. If you fear being left alone, then start cultivating friends and activities.. Just be careful that these are not people and opportunities that will expose you to situations that could lead to another affair. And so on.<P>As for his accusations about your being on line with some guy: Here’s another opportunity for you to beat him at his own game. Put monitoring software on your computer.. Sounds like he may own one already. And just tell him to check the logs anytime he wants to. That’s what my WH and I do now. We both have monitoring software on our computers… totally honesty.<P>The idea of advertising for models is interesting. Wonder how he would react to it. Probably get upset but I think it’s worth it as long as you are willing to go through with it and let him draw them. Would this take place in your home? Just set the limit that it is done in your home, or somewhere where you are around, etc. After all if it’s just art that he wants there should be no problem with that. Go for it….<P>I have to be careful here in what I encourage you to do because I tend to believe in bold actions to get bold results. Just my style.. it works for me most of the time. Sometime it blows up in my face, but I still think that the approach is worth it.<P>You said some really good things here about why you have a problem with his painting women… it’s because of the mix of emotional involvement and sexuality that are involved. I think you should pull those parts out of your last post and give them to him.<P>You very well may need to go to Plan B but I don’t think you are ready for it just yet. But I can see you coming to terms with many things over the last few days. You may be getting there, slow but surely. However, there is always the chance that some thing will happen that will change the entire dynamics of your relationship when you least expect it to.<P>By the way, I say a posting the other day that I think might give you some help in putting a stop to your H’s holding your affair over your head and in balancing his affair in relationship to yours. I believe that this is a crucial step that has to happen for the two of you to move on to a healthier relationship. I’ll look for the posting tonight after work.<P>Unfortunately your H seems to be making it a game of who is guiltier. Right now he feels the moral high grown. He does not see how harmful his actions have been to your marriage or the magnitude of them. The way to play the game would be to make him more guilty, like letting him paint all the women he wants to and have some PA’s then he be the “more-bad” guy. He would justify it by saying that you are the one who had the first affair so any PA he has is OK. And I think that is the next step in his game. He probably cannot admit to it now right now because he cannot see the road ahead of him. The problem with the “who is guiltier game” is that the lives and loves of people get trampled in the process. It’s an ugly game from which no winner immerges, only losers.<P>I'm off to work now, yuk... just want to stay home today. <P>Hope you have a good day and take very good care of yourself and your son. <P>Z<P><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Zorweb,<BR>Yes, it looks like Plan B may be the way to go as soon as I can work up the nerve. I decided I'm not even going to ask for my pearls back. I don't think I'm even going to mention it anymore...and if I did I know I'd say something like, "I don't want them back if you don't want me to have them." I'm still really hurt that he would choose to take them from me. <P>As far as the classified ad searching for models, I figure this is one way that I can show him he's wrong about my insecurities. Also it forces me to confront my insecurities myself. And the other thing it does is force my H to take this one item off the list of reasons why I "can't be a good wife to him."<P>I asked H if he feels he needs to have an affair to get back at me. He looked at me like I was crazy. I guess the only person he'd want to have one with would be his OW, and since she doesn't seem available...I don't think he would pursue anything with anyone else, even beautiful women who would pose for him. Of course, I could always be wrong. My H has never been as social as me, but over the past year he really has become almost hermit-like. He doesn't like to be around any other people, even his own family. And he doesn't like to participapte in anything recreational that involves being around other people, even things we used to enjoy, like going to concerts. When I mentioned wanting to go to a concert to see a group we both like, he wrinkled up his nose and said, "I don't want to do that. You can find someone else to go with you."<P>Did you happen to find that post that you mentioned about the "who is guiltier" syndrome? That is definitely a huge problem for us. H refuses to accept that his EA is part of our problems.<P>Hope things are going well with you today...<P>calla<P>

Calla,<P>I have not found that post yet. But will look some more tonight. <P>It sounds like you have a much better handle on your situation now then you did a few days ago. You sound so much stronger, even though the it is not what you would choose to be facing.<P>Your point about the models and facing your own insecurities is a very good one. I don't think that you are insecure about yourself. You are insecure about your relationship. How could you not be.<P>Well, have a good day. Give your son some big hugs... he loves you unconditionally.<P>Again I'll look for that post again tonight.<P>Z<P>