<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bluerodeoboy:<BR><B>You have sparked a new approach. The next time she opens up to tell me about how much of an [censored] he is I will ask her, what it is that is keeping her from breaking things off? It is a question I would like somewhat of an answer too.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Blue,<BR>I'm not sure why, but I seem to be obsessing on your situation here.<BR>As I said I am a big conflict avoider by nature & I know my W uses that the her advantage many times, like when I ask a treatening question that she doesn't want to answer, she'll go into a small rage & suggest in deifferent ways she'll withdrawal her love.<BR>There finally came a point in our relationship when there was just too many suspious things happening that despite her tantrums of sorts I persisted on certain things, because I felt if it went unchecked the results would only be worse. This was in Novemebr of 2000 & I realy did not think she as having an affair, just suseptable -- this was even after I discovered her cell phone bill with lots of calls to same number, when beofre August, she only had hand full of calls to me & her work, our daughter. I also learned to make light of certain inquires. Sorry, I'm rambling -- <BR>I assume you not going to be able to make a person visit to the pizza place. I would not hesitate to ask a few questions, like when she expected to be back home & if they're going anyplace else? Then I would encourage you consider a phone call to the Pizza place about anhour or so after they are to be there -- reason for call? Be creative if you like to make up something or be very frank, "I'm concerned about you & just wanted to see how it was going ... should I expect you soon ... I wanted to stay up until you return, would you feel like a hot chocolote? I would even consider another call in another hour. This could border on annoying, but again I'm not you, but if it was my wife out with OM, I think I have some rights to be a little concerned & I want to protect my turf & not just roll over.<BR>Sounds like you're hangin in there tuff, keep up the good work! <BR>Just my 2 cents worth -- <BR>Peace,<BR>HH

Your assumptions are correct. I won't be going. My kids need me and my in-laws are entertaining out-of-towners as we speak, so they are busy.<P>However, I like your phone call suggestion. I will do that. Depending on the reaction of the first call, I may call a second time. I won't be snoopy and interogative just letting her know I am there for her. Good suggestion.<P>------------------<BR>Blue Rodeo Boy<BR><-- Trust Yourself, and don't believe in any more lies. -->

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buffy:<BR><B><BR>Me either, I kicked him out over his fence sitting....but my Plan A effort never worked this well...he was too deep in the fog...that's why each situation is different and no one answer the right one. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Exactly!<P>The "classic" MB scenario is perhaps 6 months of Plan A, followed by Plan B, if necessary, but every case is different.<P><B>BRB</B>, in lieu of the arrival of your books you might try this <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A link</A>. There is lots of other worthwhile stuff in the main MB site's Q&A and concepts sections.<P>The idea is that both partners usually contributed to the poor state of the marriage pre A, even though the wrong response of choosing an affair is the responsibility of the WS. Plan A helps you learn to be a better spouse and show that you can be an attractive alternative to the OP, when the affair blows up. If the A lasts too long (usually > about 6 mos, but timeframe varies a lot), Plan B may be necessary both to preserve some love for your spouse and to confront them with the reality of possibly losing the BS forever. Plan B is the high risk, and somewhat dependent on first having done a good Plan A for some time, if one hopes for restoration of the marriage.<P>No contact comes in when the WS becomes willing to work on the marriage, but Plan A is not dependent on it. If you go to Plan B, a no contact agreement would probably be a requirement to ending Plan B and becoming willing to work on the marriage again.<P>Hope this clarifies things a bit.<P>Steve<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bluerodeoboy:<P>However, I like your phone call suggestion. I will do that. Depending on the reaction of the first call, I may call a second time. I won't be snoopy and interogative just letting her know I am there for her. Good suggestion.<BR>[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Remember, I'm Mr. Paranoid at times. I know when I am under some pressure & in a perosnal conflict kind of discussion I don't always come across in best way & MY POINTS OR OBJECTIVES ARE comprimised. <BR>I am rooting for you big time & want to encourage you to think about the worse, what you might do or say ... like what if they are not there or if she gets real defensive & suggests you are being jerk by calling -- I think the follow-up call is key. I don't have ready made answers I just want to encourage you to do some role playing in your mind so you are not caught off guard.<BR>Taking this to extreme, let's imagine you call & they are not there. As an example, when she gets home perhaps ask a lot of questions about dinner, what they had ect. --give her pleanty of opportunity to explain reason for not being there before you unload with catching her in a little lie.<BR> <BR>Best of luck!<BR>HH<P>

BRB,<P>I am reading the Abrams book (After the Affair), and it is quite helpful for couples who are no longer dealing an affair that is in the work. Harley's SAA is the best manual for that, because it deals with how one should behave while the WS is still engaged with the OP. But the Abrams book is good - a lot of the principles Harley mentioned are found in this book, and it gives very detailed suggestions as to how you and your WS can meet each other's needs in terms of communication.<P>What do you think of "Tough Love," BTW? I wanted to read this one, and I still might. Is it any good? What are you learning from it? (Just a brief outline would be okay!)<P>TIA,<P>belld

bluerodeoboy,<BR>Forgive me for my frankness. But as a wife who's had an affair, I HAVE to say some things to you. One of your posts in this thread made me almost fall out of my chair. You said:<P>"when they walk together, it's not romantic." and then you said "They are going out to dinner tonight...to fight again."<P><BR>Ummmm....hellooooo in there?? Is this what you're wife's TELLING you??? Why would any woman WANT to have an affair with someone she fought with all the time, who was unkind or disrespectful to her? I can tell you: it's not true. She's telling you this stuff to keep you hangin' on the line. She wants her options open. she's not sure yet WHO she wants, so as long as she lets you think her affair is going "badly" she knows you'll sit in the wings and wait, 'cause (God help ya) you love her.<P>Would you sit around and wait if she came back from her walk all dreamy and said, "Golly gee, H, OM sure is the best kisser...and does he know how to throw a compliment!" Would you sit around and wait for her if this was how she was talking? H*ll, no!!!<P>I have to cast my vote with the minority here who are suggesting you salvage some self-respect and go into plan B now, whether or not this strictly follows Harley's plan of attack. All you are demonstrating at this point is that you are one terrific doormat. Your wife doesn't even have to keep the affair secret from you, because you support it!!! She can even tell you when she has a DATE!!!<P>Blue, I wish you the best...you certainly are a devoted H, but I hope you don't continue on with your tail between your legs. You don't deserve it!!!<P>calla<P>

I have rethought this whole thing. I really can't believe what is going on in this relationship. I don't honestly think it will go anywhere from what I have been reading of your wife. Really I don't know how you can take this total insult. I don't believe your wife hangs out with this guy to fight. That's just too ridiculous to believe, unless she enjoys the fighting with him in which case it is an enjoyment. No one would go out with someone night after night to have fights. Fights are not enjoyable. Going out with some other guy night after night is enjoyable for your wife. I am not sure how long you want to wait to come to your senses. Your being fed a line of "Bull." I have to go with the minority on this one too. Of course I could be wrong but if I was her husband, this is what I personaly would think. I would ask her to make a choice between the other guy and myself. If she chooses the other guy, then I would not be angry but just wish her the best of luck. I'm not sure what I would feel like doing to this other jerk (I wouldn't do it though - not worth it). I don't know how you could possibly take this abuse. I guess your wife must have some wonderful qualities that I don't know about for you to put up with this. Actualy this is the case in my situaton and that's why I did not tell my wife to get lost. But if she had 10% less qualities I would have told her to marry the other man instead.<p>[This message has been edited by Rodger (edited June 12, 2001).]

BRB,<P>I’ve been following your posts from the beginning. You sound like a wonderful man who really loves his wife and I commend you for that. It burns me to see what you are going through. <P>I But at some point here it seems that you need to tell her to make a choice.<P>I'm with Calla and Roger. She is still involved with this guy and at some point here you will need to tell her to make a choice if she does not stop this on her own. Only you will know that point. I wish you could bet the Surviving an Affair and His Needs, Her Needs and Lovebusters books much quicker then your local bookstore can get them for you. I ordered them from Amazon.com and got them overnight-ed to me. You would benefit so much from the Surviving and Affair book right now. Much of the material from that book is available on this web site in different formats.<P>I agree that it seems very odd that she finds him annoying but still spends so much time with him. From what I can tell, one of three things is going on.<P>1) She really does find him annoying but she is trying to find a “nice” way to break it off and make him understand her point of view. In this case, he will never understand her point of view because it is not in his best interest. He will keep the game going as long as she will play it. <P>My attorney described this to me once as the “tar baby game”. Do you remember the story of Ber’Rabbit and the Tar Baby? Well one of the book characters made a tar baby. Then they hid in the bushes behind the tar baby and started yelling insults at Ber’Rabbit. Ber’Rabbit approached Tar Baby and told it to shut up. Of course it did not, kept bad mouthing Ber’Rabbit. With each insult, Ber’Rabbit bunched, kicked, etc. the Tar Baby. Before long, Ber’Rabbit was so suck to that Tar Baby that he could not get away. (I think that’s how the story goes.) So the moral of the story is, why would she punch that Tar Baby if she knows she is just going to get stuck to all the yucky black tar? She will never win, he will never stop the game and in the end she’ll just be covered in tar and stuck. I think about this story every time I get caught up in some sticky emotional game. Helps me pull back and find my senses.<P>If you want to find out if your wife is just stuck to that Tar Baby, offer to help her break free. Offer to be her knight in shining Armour. She may resist but most of us would be willing to let someone else to the dirty work. The no contact letter would be perfect for this.<P>2) She is continuing the “game” wondering when on earth you are going to figure out how she wants you to love her. That is where the material on this website will help. They help people identify their emotional needs and then tell their spouse how to meet those needs. <P>In “watching” what you are telling us about your wife, there are three needs I see her thing with this meeting. The first is affection, conversation and recreational companionship. I could be wrong but it sure looks like it to me. <P>The other emotional needs are admiration, sexual fulfillment (from the sounds of you are more then willing to fill this one), honesty and openness (bet there is not a lot of this coming from him), physical attractiveness ( you will have to be the judge here but I bet you fill this one just fine), financial support (he’s not filling this one is he?), domestic support (this is help around the house and with kids – so he is not doing this for her), family commitment (nope again for him).<P>So if I’m right, if you start to fill the three he’s filling then you’ll get rid of him. From my understanding, this is what Plan A is all about. In one of your earlier posts you asked if romance was a big thing for women. Oh you bet your cowboy boots it is…. Affection is usually the top emotional need for women and the best way to show affection to a woman is through romance. To women romance = love, romance leads to sex, etc. I’d like to suggest another book to you… “1001 Ways to Be Romantic” by Gegory Godek. It’s a wonderful, fun but that tells ways to take your emotional love an put it into action.<P>3) The last possibility here is that she doing the rather usual and terrible thing a lot of WS do. She is lying to you about what she is up to… Play the “we are just friends” game with a twist. “We are just enemies, I cannot stand being with him but I want to go tell him about how much I cannot stand him.” In this case you may very well need to move to Plan B.<P>I hope that she is playing #1 or #2. But I have to admit that the longer it goes on it sounds like #3.<P>Only you are close enough to this to know what is going on. I hope this does not throw too much confusion into the mix. And I hope I am not way off base.<P>Good Luck<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

Zorweb,<P>Loved your Tar Baby story - brings back memories of my childhood. My grandmother read me those stories. <P>There is yet another alternative here ... that BRB's W knows that the OM is *capable* of meeting her ENs, because he's done it in the past. So now she's trying to force the issue, trying to get him to meet those needs again. <P>Ever have an acrimonious break-up with another person and then be thrown in close proximity with them? Under layers and layers of surface revulsion and contempt is a needy little person crying, "Please love me again - please, please, please?" You *know* that that person is capable of treating you right ... so you hang around (or they do), hoping that the old feelings of tenderness will return.<P>This could be her game, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was. But however we here at MB diagnose it, it's still a very unhealthy thing for you, BRB, to be subjected to. One thing I am very certain about, and that is that your W is NOT being totally honest with you with respect to her intentions.<P>belld

belldandy,<P>Very good point and boy does it ring true. I remember a particular dating relationship of mine that ended, or rather dragged on like that for quite some time. <P>Certain things are certain here. Afairs are about getting emotional needs met... so she is trying to get them met and it seems rather desprately at this point. It even seems like she is trying to see which of you is going to meet them. As all WS are, she is in a fog and is not telling you, BRB, the entire truth. Or at least not the "real" truth. And you, BRB, can meet her needs she just needs to let you.<P>Z<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited June 13, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zorweb:<BR><B><BR>I'm with Calla and Roger. She is still involved with this guy and at some point here you will need to tell her to make a choice if she does not stop this on her own. Only you will know that point.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Excellent posts by zorweb and belldandy. The key point here is <B>Only you will know that point</B>, as zorweb said. I understand the concern of those who are telling you to force the issue now--no one can take this kind of treatment indefinitely. But principles of when to force the issue are more helpful than someone telling you when to Plan B. You plan B when your love bank is being depleted to the point where you risk losing the remaining love for your spouse, or when progress is stalled and your WS is content to let you meet some ENs and the OP meet others. It seems to me that you're not there yet, although the time may not be that far away if she continues her present behavior.<P>SAA and the Infidelity Q&A on this site have a lot of real-life stories that may yield some insight. I will say that Dr. Harley does advocate going a lot farther to reach out to a WS than our natural reaction would incline us to do.<P>A major story in SAA is the story of Sue and Jon. Sue was a WS and Jon was her H. She carried out a blatant affair including an episode where Jon found her in bed with Greg, the lover. She still claimed they were just friends! She moved out, moved back, moved out again to be with Greg. Then she got a court order forcing Jon to move out and pay her $3,000/month child support while she lived in their home!<P>I don't have time to go through the whole book to recall the chronology. At times Sue tried to break it off with Greg, then resumed the A while lying to Jon. Dr. H still had a plan for Jon to plan A for 6 months. To quote from SAA, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>For many couples, plan A gets the job done. The thoughtfulness demonstrated by the betrayed spouse helps a wayward spouse make the decision to permanently separate from the lover. But even when plan A doesn't stop an affair, having used it makes marital reconciliation much easier if separation form the lover ever does occur. The care shown in plan A helps make the betrayed spouse an attractive choise for the wayward spouse when the affair dies a natural death. It also proves that the betrayed spouse knows how to protect the wayward spouse from anger, disrespect, and demands, even under conditions of infidelity(p78, SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Dr. H also indicates that there is a time to let go and let the affair stand or fall (Plan B). <B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Most affairs last less than six months after they are exposed to the light of day. A very few may survive two years of sunlight but that is rare, especially when a betrayed spouse lets go and gives the affair a chance to destroy itself. Jon had already agreed to a six-month deadline for plan A...(p. 82, SAA)</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The key is the six months in plan A <B>before going to plan B</B>.<P>Anyway, BRB, I'm not positive where you are in the process, but I suspect that you have more time to go in plan A before you need to think about plan B.<P>Steve<BR>

Blue,<BR>Are you OK?!<BR>You have a lot of people very intereeted in your well being and I'm a little concerned about how you doing. You got more insights that seemed to go along with my perspectives, which seems to be counter to your natural inclinations on this, so I hope you are not totally confussed and or frustrated!<BR>Can you updates us on last nights events at the pizza place and more importantly your take on situation?<BR>Have you spoke to friend or Pastor about this?<BR>Do you have any vaction time you can take to try and re-group or focus on this? <P>I know when I was in your stage (early discovery), it is a wonder I did not accidently crash my car & kill myself -- concentration on other matters was extremely difficult!<BR>Regardless of outcome or your W's real intentions, please try to remember that you are a valuable person with many excellant attributes & qualities! <BR>Thoughts & prayers are with you!<BR>HH

Blue,<BR>You are about to fall off the rador screen here. Hope all is well?!<BR>Prayers are with you!<BR>HH