FYI WhoDat was a WS. Yeah ain't it great when a WS who has never done a Plan A criticizes....

KG:<P>Thanks for the FYI. It does help to understand the perspectives of those participating: each has their unique take to offer.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

I'm going to offer some info regarding Plan A. Just my experience and what Jennifer Harley had told me in a counseling session.<P>I told Jennifer I had been in Plan A for nearly 11 mos and I was hanging by a thread. I told her I was starting to Love Bust my H and feeling angry. I told her I felt it was time for a seperation and Plan B BEFORE I lost all love for my H.<P>Jennifer told me that most people can't even last "3 weeks" (that is a quote) in Plan A when the spouse is living with them because the A is too hurtful with it in their face 24/7. Some people have reported it feels like emotional abuse.<P>I'm not siding with anyone, I just felt offering this information would help All understand that everyone is different in terms of what they can tolerate regarding the nuances of an A.<P>Lets all build a bridge and help Cali get over it. She needs us more than ever right now.<P>p.s. Regardless if someone is the WS or BS, they came "here - MB" to recover and rebuild their marriage. For me, that in of itself says volumes regarding their personna.<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited June 27, 2001).]

Gee funny how the WS feel that they are only humans who made a mistake and we should work together to get over it and move forward. Stronger, just tell those who condem you for such behavior to GET OVER IT you are only human afterall!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KalGrl:<BR><B>FYI WhoDat was a WS. Yeah ain't it great when a WS who has never done a Plan A criticizes....</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>now that's just <I>mean</I>...........<P>shame on you.<P>all of you who are getting <I>petty</I>....should step back and breathe........<P>this level of 'cattiness' is beneath us all and corrupts the purpose of this board.......<P><BR>Dylan<BR><P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

Dylan:<P>People here are coming from all levels of emotional turmoil. So (not speaking for anyone else) why take it too personally? Catty, haughty, sanctimonious, sage, majestic, soulful ... all human emotional and intellectual expressions are equally valid here. Most will realize blatant attack behavior when they see it (or so I would hope); and most also understand that everyone here has suffered a measure of pain, and therefore is subject to emotional turmoil at times.<P>Glad you put your oar in the water.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<P>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited June 27, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited June 27, 2001).]

Cali, just curious, has there been any fallout? What is going on?<P>

OK, I have read enough to come out of lurkdom. Some of you people just get my goat.<P><B>Cali</B> - Sure you felt good and there are a million times I wished I had done something like what you did. But I didn't. I completely empathize with how you feel even if I disagree with your method. But you are human and you are allowed to goof up from time to time.<P><B>The rest of you criticizing WhoDat - </B> OK, so maybe his responses can be a little gruff at times. So what? He has succeeded in saving his marriage. How many of those who criticize him can say the same? Most who are terminally offended by WhoDat wouldn't be able to take Dr. Phil either. Personally, I agree with his assessment. Three weeks of Plan A??? Not even close to enough.<P>And before <B>KalGrl</B> steps in to criticize me, let me give you a short profile:<BR>Plan A(very, very imperfect) for almost 18 months with:<BR> W living at home the whole time<BR> The EA part of the affair continuing for about the first 12 months of Plan A<BR> W telling me and everyone who would listen at least once a week that she was moving out<BR> 12 months of me being portrayed as the "devil incarnate"<BR> 12 months of phone calls to OM anytime I went to bed or was not at the house for some reason<P>Anyone who was responding to me on this board during that time, knows I went thru a personal he!!. I did <I>most</I> of my venting here rather than at W. If I had done what Cali did at the same stage, I would be divorced right now. However, I do know that there are many who when through much worse than I and did better Plan A's. And even when they criticized me, I didn't take it personally and just write them off, I tried to find the wisdom in their words(and it was always there even if I had to look deep).<P>There is a "shallowness" that is permeating these forums lately. Revenge is not only being tolerated more and more, but is sometimes encouraged. WAT said it best(and I've heard it before), "Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?". All of us BS and WS need to ask ourselves that question. If we choose to be right, then we can blame no one else for the failure of our marriages.<P>Please remember that the primary purpose of Plan B and the secondary purpose of Plan A are to improve <B><I>you</I></B>. If you try to implement either one of these simply as "tools" to recover a WS, most will be disappointed. Three weeks of Plan A won't change anyone, not a WS and definitely not a BS who has enough to deal with in the early weeks.<P>I admit to living vicariously thru Cali and what she did, but that doesn't make it right. Cali, it's time to regroup and decide what you really want. Do you want a divorce? Keep doing what you are doing. Do you want to save your marriage? Then write this off and get back on the wagon. Time for a little soul-searching, my friend. Decide what you truly want and then work up a plan to try to attain it.<P>[Soapbox mode off]<P>--DeWayne--<P>

DeWayne:<P>Excuse me? Gruff is one thing, flat-out rudeness is quite another (see WhoDat's comments and look closely for comments slamming Cali's attempts as "worst-ever" etc.) So, if you take exception to anyone, please do so by name and not collectively, and further, make sure your exception is properly directed.<P>Nice to just lurk and jump in and take potshots, far better to be part of an ongoing dialog. Read all of a thread and related threads before commenting, that way you have the entire picture.<P>As for my wife's and my recovery, it is going quite well thank you, and our Plan A was about 2-3 weeks. Each case is unique, my friend, bear that in mind when you comment. I am glad you fared well in salvaging your relationship, but your 18-month timeframe does not fit all the myriad scenarios here.<P>What Cali needed at the moment (and if anyone had bothered to check not only this thread, but the other threads going at the time) was a boost up at a moment when she was starting to feel unraveled.<P>I did so (as did many others). But in addition to the boost, she was also MILDLY chastised for it. (WAT, Ish and others.) Tsk, tsk, tsk: you have to look for signs of desperation and depression and help with those BEFORE you can work on MB techniques.<P>Cali knew about LBing herself, yet fell prey to human emotion. Understand the emotion, help the person resolve their emotions THEN move on to getting them back on track.<P>Shallow? You don't know me well enough to judge me. There is a huge difference between correcting someone's rude behavior and seeking "revenge".<P>There. Hope the soapbox has been sufficiently kicked out from under you. By the way, want to buy a goat?<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited June 28, 2001).]

DeWayne,<P>Read the other threads before you comment. <P>For one thing, Cali has been in Plan A for at least 2 months, not 3 weeks.<P>Her outburst was not about revenge, she fell apart.<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

LOL... what is this... version 3 or 4 of the WhoDat fanClub? <P><B>KalGrl</B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Yeah ain't it great when a WS who has never done a Plan A criticizes....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh yes! A horrible, rotten, evil WS! Make sure and discount <B>everything</B> he says! <P><B>soulloss</B> and <B>Heartpain</B><BR>Thanks for the thoughts, but no one here can possibly make me feel nearly as badly as I made myself feel when I discovered what I had done to my marriage. Someday, KalGrl (and others) may realize that PlanA is merely the immediate application in the face of than affair of actions we all should have been taking all along: Elimination of LoveBusters and meeting Emotional Needs. And that works on BOTH sides of the fence. Nope; never did Plan A, and neither did my W (she doesn’t believe in the MB principles). But the principles are completely sound, whether used to Survive an Affair or live a happy married life. They were like tossing a life preserver to a drowning man floundering in the morass of trying with all my might to right my marriage. That’s why I hold onto them so dearly, and can’t stand to see people egging on destructive behavior. Unfortunately, as I have seen many times before here, these mistakes have to be <I>lived,</I> and very rarely will someone learn from another without going through it themselves.<P><B>SeenTheLight</B><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Excuse me? Gruff is one thing, flat-out rudeness is quite another. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL... some people can easily confuse rudeness with the inability to enable. I refuse to commend bad behavior... if you wish to, that is your prerogative, of course. Just expect to be called on it, and if that comes across as rude, so be it. We’re not here to make friends or have tea and crumpets, we’re here to <B>save marriages.</B> That’s not an easy task (from EITHER SIDE); screwing around and not meeting these problems head on isn’t doing anyone any favors.<P><B>zorweb</B><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Her outburst was not about revenge, she fell apart.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thank you... and my (initial) comments (and reason for replying) were due to the appalling responses egging her on to continue that downward spiral.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

Whodat posted:<BR>"We’re not here to make friends or have tea and crumpets"<P>Well, I am very happy with all the friends I have made at MB (and yes I do consider them friends). They are not going to stop helping if I end up divorced and can't work on my marriage, and I'm not going to stop posting and trying to help others if that happened either.<P>And, I would rather like some tea and crumpets - thank you.<P>I don't disagree with your philosophy either, you have a right to your opinion and I tend to agree with some of it. I just wanted to put in my 2 cents about what MB is to me. Maybe you don't want any more friends, but I could sure use them somedays.

<B>WhoDat - </B> Well said!!!! And a standing ovation from my office!!<P>Later I want to issue a "mea culpa"(in a separate topic) to Z and SIL. I did post without the proper "research"(a first for me, I think, I have read many of Cali's posts, but wasn't "following" so much), but I wasn't responding as much to Cali's situation as the attack on WhoDat. <P>Later....<P>--DeWayne--

<B>hurtbyhubby</B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Well, I am very happy with all the friends I have made at MB (and yes I do consider them friends). They are not going to stop helping if I end up divorced and can't work on my marriage, and I'm not going to stop posting and trying to help others if that happened either.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks for that, HBH... as a point of clarification, perhaps I should have said all those things take a back seat to saving marriages. FWIW, I <B>don’t</B> have any friends here, and don’t want any. I think that’s directly tied to my wariness of online acquaintances, due to the fact that my affair started in that manner. So I pretty much avoid even facing in that direction, let alone taking the first step. <P><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

WhoDat:<P>One can make one's point without being rude, without coddling. My wife and I DO adhere to the MB philosophy, which is why we are successfully in recovery.<P>In addition to your holy crusade on MB tenets, you must also take into account people's emotional state and other factors. The milk of human kindness goes far, my overly zealous friend.<P>Go look up the word zealot while you are at it. Human emotional conditions as encountered here require kindness, in addition to helping people realize the importance of MB concepts. You can state your position forcefully without resorting to meanness (re your comment to Cali that hers was the "worst" case you had encountered, among other staements). Ever hear the expression you gather more flies with honey than vinegar"? You do no one a favor pushing MB tenets on people whose need of the moment is to be lifted up from despair and depression.<P>And, to be truthful (having been both a WS and a BS), I tend to be more sypathetic to BS's. After all, they are the true victims in these situations.<P>So, the bottom line here is that most here appreciate your dedication to the MB ways while chaffing at your presentation. Now go take your nice pill.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

As an addendum to WhoDat:<P>Tenets without compassion are dogma.<P>Arf.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL

Cali,<P>I have to post something of a dissenting point of view here.<P>First of all a Plan A CAN work in as little as 2 weeks. My plan A lasted about 2 weeks with great success. Why do I think it worked? It worked because while I LB’d as little as was humanly possible (for me), I stood my ground and insisted that I be treated respectfully by my H and his OWs. I contacted all of the OWs and asked them to get out of our lives. I then presented my H with all of the evidence I had and would not accept anything less then the full truth and full respect. And I did not need to LB to do this. I did this in the kindest, most loving and most caring way I would muster. It was not an act, it was how I felt. I love my husband but I will not be mistreated. I know that I was one of the lucky ones. But I also know that it was not only luck. For one thing, I was lucky because there was still great love between us. <P>Cali, your situation is different than mine. Yours is a much more difficult situation. And bless your soul, you have been working you’re a$$ off for your marriage. Have you done everything perfectly? No, I’m sure not, as you are human and in the middle of a terrible situation. I have no idea how you have done this for over two months. You are remarkable. It is very easy for a person who has not been going through this as a BS, in a protracted Plan A, to not understand the stress you are under and the strength it takes to go through what you have gone through. <P>BTW you were in plan A when I first posted here two months ago. So it has definitely not been three weeks.<P>So you blew a fuse. Good for you, sometimes we need to do that. I think that you need to look closer at the things you did. The things you did were, in my humble opinion the absolutely correct things to do. Where I see a flaw is in how you did them. Please do not get me wrong… I do not fault you for that. Again, you are human and enough is, after all, enough. Cali, you finally broke out of your unsure state and did something very bold. I like bold. <P>I have thought long and hard about this LB stuff. A person does not LB when they are standing up for their own rights and dignity. They LB when they yell, scream, incriminate, etc. in an attempt to do this.<P>Plan A or not, you must preserve your sense of dignity and respect. What your husband chooses to do outside of your house is one thing. But what he does in your home is another. <P>You should not have to accept the continued humiliation of the OW calling YOUR home and leaving messages on YOUR answering machine. This woman and your husband have humiliated you beyond belief. It is not a love buster to tell your husband in a calm voice. <P>“Honey, at this point in time, you feel that what you do outside of our home is none of my business. Since you are forcing that on me, I accept it for now. However, this is my home and I will be treated with respect in my home. Please do not have the OW call here any more. If she does, I will hang up on her. If she leaves a message, I will delete it. I love you and want you in my life, but not at the cost of being constantly humiliated.”<P>About your call to the OW to tell her that your husband and you are still intimate, goading her to call you and emailing her friend. Well, that one is a bit much, but why not? She is so bold as to call your home and act like you are not there. Someone has to stand up for you and set limits for you. And it looks like right now you are it. Have you ever noticed that a dog is not very likely to bite someone who looks it in the eye with confidence?<P>The yelling and screaming? Sure it’s a LB to yell and scream. But even in Plan A, radical honesty is essential. Your husband needs to hear how you feel.<P>What I see is that you cleared a protective circle around yourself and your home. You put your H on notice that he must respect your boundaries. And that if he does not, you will enforce them. So he has a choice, enforce them himself or let you do it.<P>So for the future? You laid the groundwork with your great hurricane. Now, take the anger and loss of control out of it. But in the sweetest and most sincere way possible keep your boundaries.<P><BR>((((((hug)))))))<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare<P>

OK, everybody, STOP IT!!!<P>There are posters who have zero or only one response currently on the first page. End this fruitless bickering right now and spend your time helping somebody else.<P>I'll have the next person who continues this waste of electricity beamed up to the mothership for scrambled brains.<P>WAT

Ah - I understand, and definately agree, YOU should probably NOT have any friends here. <P>I, however, need the friends, as do others on this board. <P>Thanks for the clarification - I think we needed that.

WAT:<P>Yep, there are other postings out there needing addressing. In fact, I have responded to many of them this morning.<P>But rudeness does get my dander up.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL