Dear Dazed,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dazed and Confused:<BR><B>Hey, BRHP: Your post resonated STRONGLY with me, because my H used to be an underachiever too, and I was also codependent on his underfunctioning. Even now that he has caught up in terms of his career, there are things he remains irresponsible about (like cleaning up after himself, organizing his life, keeping from burning the house down with his cigarettes, etc.)</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you for sharing this. I am not glad you lived this, but I do feel better that I am not alone! <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I come from a home where I took care of my emotional basketcase of a mother from the time I was 11, and my H played into this need I have to be a caregiver. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OMG, we are sisters! Same here, same exact life circumstances! My mom was more the kid, and I the parent. And my H went from home to me and never lived on his own. I once asked him if [as he told me I was] my being controlling or demanding was too much for him. Know what he said? "No, I LIKE IT. I need a strong woman to control things and take care of me." I was so turned off by this comment, I couldn't talk! <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Problem is, this is a double-edged sword, because there comes a point where the caregiver wants care, and the partner can't give it. My H too refuses things like counseling or anything that might help. So I've had to do it alone.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ABSOLUTELY, I want to be nurtured and cared for now and then too. It's supposed to be give/take in marriage meaning both give and both take, not one gives and the other takes! <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have not had an affair, though. He has had an EA a few years ago when he felt neglected.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know my affair is wrong, but for now, it's the only way I get my needs met. And when I stopped catering to H, he actually got ANGRY with me. I didn't get mean to him, just stopped being his all in many areas. He was angry because he had to start taking care of himself more. I don't feel sorry, he should take care of himself, he's 41 for crying out loud! He won't even make himself a sandwich or a cup of coffee, always wants me to do it or he buys it out! The other night I came home late, and had to feed my son at 9pm. He said his father didn't feed him-he was so hungry! Now come on here...<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>At any rate, it's important when trying to change these relationships to realize our own role in keeping the situation as it is. When these men do things that indicate they are getting stronger, we feel threatened, for all that we want them to change. For me, it's a feeling that ultimately I will be alone and I'm afraid to relinquish any control over my life to another person. My H has just inherited some money, and we will be taking some baby steps towards joint accounts, and I think I'm more scared than he is.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I read this wonderful book, "The Dance of Intimacy" one thing it says is that neither party can bring an entire 'self' to a relationship if they are terrified about living without that relationship. It's only when we become autonomous that we can really make the relationship work in a healthy manner. We need to examine what that means to us! <P>I see for myself, once I became financially and emotionally more independent, and no longer 'needed' my husband to support myself and the kids was when I really began to examine the relationship honestly and decide to make changes for myself. Before that point, I was always unhappy, but never had the guts to make any changes! Problem is HE needs the relationship PLENTY right now, so here we have the dicotomy. Until he can get a job, get self-esteem, and become a wholly independent person himself, we will most likely not have a healthy relationship that works well. *I* can not give him, make him, or do for him in this area, he has to do it all by himself. All I can do is change myself! <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>It's important to recognize this in ourselves and try to communicate to our spouses when we feel this dynamic happening. I think most of these guys WANT to do better, and they WANT to be more responsible, but we have to help them in a CONSTRUCTIVE way to step up to the plate.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OMG - I do agree. I have recognized that since *I* have made some significant changes, so has HE. He has upon my 'suggestions' taken the TV out of our son's room, he's agreed to not let him do playstation games during the school year, lost the ugly hairpiece, started looking for a job [at least reviewing the employment ads], he has on occasion done a load of laundry, cooked a meal, and showed me some interest in physical intimacy. ALL new and major changes in a short period of time. I MUST GIVE HIM A LOT OF CREDIT!! As long as *I* continue to hold my ground in the arena of positive changes, it will help him to hold his new behaviors as well. It is easier to switch back to the old behaviors, no matter how much they don't work, but it takes stamina to maintain new behaviors. I am going to work hard to do so! <P>Thanks, and peace...<BR>

Dear JL, Will, Et al:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>Between,<P>I appreciate your response and it does clear up a few things. Perhaps I should explain a few things. <P>1. I don't judge people and certainly my post was not a judgement, but a statement of what I felt I was reading. That is why I phrased it the way it was phrased. I expected and needed to hear your responses.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Fair enough.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>2. I am not angry at you, nor is anything in your post hitting any buttons for me. Sadly, your situation is all too familiar around here.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nor am I angry at you! <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>3. I know your marriage can be saved, but some changes will have to be made.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree and they are taking place this very moment. Slowly, which is the only way change can progress. 20yrs of messed up behavior on both our parts is not going to get fixed in a heartbeat! <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So let me comment on a few things and then offer some suggestions. There are many things I don't know in this world but here are a few that I do know.<P>An affair will destroy a marriage faster that just about anything. And that includes yours despite your protestations about how good and generous man your OM is.<P>The lack of honesty in a marriage will eventually rot the marriage. You finally tell your H about feeling neglected for the TV and he understands, and he doesn't blow up. How many years have you felt this way? You should have been communicating with him long ago. You are not communicating about your year deadline, which has now been restated as a one year reevaluation point. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ah, but all these things have been communicated time and time again. However, now I am communicating them in a different manner. Instead of using *YOU* I have begun using *I* language. He is now HEARING and LISTENING, where as before he was shutting me out. I have never ever failed to be honest with him - even with the affair in some respects. He had many times when I told him point blank "If you don't want to make love to me, I will find someone who will!" His reply 'GO AHEAD!' I suppose he didnt' think I meant it, and yes, now I'm not entirely truthful with him in that I don't throw it in his face. But - guess what? - he knows about it. He's not stupid, he and I both know the truth. He is lying to himself as much as you think I'm lying to him! I actually think he finds it a relief now that I no longer pressure him for 'intimacy' - he and I can actually talk to each other in a manner we have not been able to ever before. He has ALWAYS had an aversion to sex, discsussing it, doing it, and its always made him very uncomfortable. <P>This may sound crazy to you, but the affair has in many ways helped our marriage. In the long run, one or the other will have to end, and the truth will have to be laid out onto the table. That time is not here yet. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Frankly, if your marriage is so bad, and your H a complete loser, then you should have been honest enough to divorce him rather than do what you are doing now.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, we all do what we do for our own reasons, don't we. I don't believe ANYONE is a complete looser. My H has his good points too, as do we all. He doesn't drink, smoke, chase women [although he has a pretty heavily emotionally intimate relationship with a MALE friend], gamble, beat me or the kids. He also doesn't work, communicate well, has issues with anger, depression, self-esteem, is emotionally unavailable, blah blah blah. The key is how to take the good and help him make it better and how to take the bad and learn to react to it in a different manner, thus allowing him to change at his own pace. I can't MAKE him do it or FIX him, I can only change myself.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The most important thing I have come to realize here, is that there are many ways to categorize why marriages fail, but Harley has done a very good job of this. My points above are indeed his points and he has more.<P>Now, reading your follow up post to me and others I would strongly suspect that your H is depressed. Let's see he lost his job of 10 years and couldn't find another one. He turned 40, which as you commented on is the prime age for the dreaded MLC. And his W isn't putting much focus on him or the marriage.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We know he's depressed, I requested he see a Dr. and he did. He also has a sleep disorder. He was given anti-depressants, and a CPAP machine to help his sleep disorder. He used them both a week or two, then one day got mad at me and said "I will not take those pills for you anymore. [so there]" And he stopped. If he takes them for ME, and not for himself, it won't work. He also will not use the sleep machine either, making excuses about how uncomfortable it is. My brother has the same machine and tried to advise him how to make it more comfortable so it can work for him, but he refused to listen. <P>Also, the more I focused on HIM the worse things got. When I started to focus my energies on myself, is when things began to change. That's funny - but it's how it works. When we have a whole 'self' to offer, then we see change.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You clearly can't be much of a W to him, because of the hours you say you work, the time you spend with the children, the cooking, ect. AND you are having an affair on the side. Doesn't leave a lot of time for marriage building does it? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I actually used to be TOO MUCH of a wife to him, really more a MOTHER than a wife. I backed off. He needs to find himself. There is no marriage to build, until he can bring a whole complete person to the relationship. If and when that happens, we will build the marriage that we have never had, since the honeymoon! These issues have been there since we married. I considered divorcing him the first year, and maybe I should have done so. I just didn't have what it took back then! One day - when I feel ready, and if he feels ready we will discuss the OM which we BOTH know exists! That day has not yet come. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>From the sounds of things, your H has his failings, but I am sure he compares himself to his brother and finds himself lacking. <P>In short it would seem first and foremost your H needs to have his depression addressed and that doesn't necessarily take counseling, but a visit to a doctor. You might approach his taking anti-D's very much as if he needed glasses. Neither will change him, but they will sharpen his senses and his ability to function.<P>As for yourself, I think you need to end the affair and tell your H about the affair. If you are not honest with him on this, there is a very low chance that the marriage will ever be better than it is and a high chance it will fail. If you do tell him, you may hear the word divorce, but as Harley points out in most cases the couples don't divorce. Since you are already entertaining the idea of a divorce, then I do think that Harley's "radical honesty" policy is something you should follow.<P>Please do some reading on this topic. It is crucial that you have knowledge of what it takes and the power of it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I read A LOT [read all of Harley's books] - go to counseling, etc. etc. I agree with many of the things I read, and I will do them in time. When it's the right time, when I am ready, anytime I do it will be painful, but I just don't feel now is the time. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In summary, it sounds to me like your H's self-esteem is pretty shot, and he is in deep depression about life in general. It sounds from what you have written that you have pretty much hung it up and went off to find a better man. Neither of your actions and particularly yours, since you did this with forethought, is going to help your marriage. More importantly these actions are not going to help your's or your H's future, no matter what happens to the marriage.<P>So please consider ending the affair and being honest with your H. Rather than try to get him into counseling, see if he will see a Dr. about his depression.<P>God Bless,<P>JL</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Peace and once again. Thank you. <P>[This message has been edited by BtwnRockandHardPlace (edited August 29, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by BtwnRockandHardPlace (edited August 29, 2001).]

between,<P>You said a couple of things that interest me. First, have you always run your H's life?? Second, if go back and reread what you have written, there is a strong element of control in your discussion of your H. You also mention that he does indeed fight your control; won't take anti-D's because you him want to, won't clean up the house because you hound him, etc. I get the feeling that although he is the stay at home partner here, he has to meet your standards or he hears about it.<P>Now if I tried that with my W, she would do exactly the same thing. Her actions would be" "fine do it yourself and shut up." We have a very clear division of responsibility and the other doesn't intrude on it. It is hard sometimes not to say something, but over the years it has proven to work well. <P>I suspect your H having lost his job and become a "Domestic God" deeply resents your sort of piling on him about how he does things. As you point out, you are prone to use the YOU word rather than the I word. So he loses his job, he loses what even you equate to being a good H (the ability to support his family), he takes a position you don't respect (staying home with the children), and then he gets a constant stream of "how to's", "you should of's", "what's wrong with you's" from you.<P>All I can say is that he is a far more patient man than I. Far more.<P>You then said something that really intrigued me: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> There is no marriage to build, until he can bring a whole complete person to the relationship. If and when that happens, we will build the marriage that we have never had, since the honeymoon! These issues have been there since we married. I considered divorcing him the first year, and maybe I should have done so. I just didn't have what it took back then! One day - when I feel ready, and if he feels ready we will discuss the OM which we BOTH know exists! That day has not yet come. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Between, I doubt seriously that you are a whole or complete person. In fact, it would appear that you are a person with some severe issues and one of them is empathy for your H. Now, this lack of empathy may be temporary due to your affair or it is not. However, saying you should have divorced him the first year of marriage, suggests that you never really were much into this marriage save how it benefited you. <P>Further, a woman that has and is having an affair, is not a whole woman. You are trying to fill holes within yourself, and I suspect you were when you married your H. You have found that he cannot fill them, so you are trying someone else.<P>Your last several sentences suggest a very strong need to control. If indeed you both "know" that you are having an affair but you have not admitted to it, then you are using the affair as a club to beat your H down with, and you are cheating your OM as well. You expect H to change because of the affair, but if he does become the man you want him to be, then it is likely he will leave based on your behavior.<P>D&C made a very important comment to you about her wanting her H to become stronger, and then fearing the fact that he had become stronger. I do think you need to examine more closely what you truely want, and how much you do truely control or try to control your H. I see many of his behaviors as a "passive aggressive" fight against your control.<P>Solution is love him and try not to control him. For even your pulling away from him is in fact control. You know you have him by the b---s, and he knows it as well. It would seem you are just playing games, rather than facing up to yourself and him. The best time to tell him about the affair is NOW. Not when it is tactically best for you.<P>Again, I do hope that something I have said makes you view things from a different perspective.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Dear JL, <P>HMMMMM, all good points. I need to read your post and re-read it a few times. You are speaking truth here. I don't deny my issues [control issues, etc.] and I am working on it all. Maybe I am playing games unwittingly. Not my intention, I suppose it's learned behavior from my first family. I am working hard to change myself. I know I am not a whole person, and do NOT deny that one bit. Still trying to learn here. <P>Just a footnote, while I do not deny there are problems here I have caused, the part that made me run to another man was...MY HUSBAND'S DENIAL OF ANY PROBLEMS AT ALL! He kept saying he was happy with things as they are, we didn't need counseling and he simply refused to try to make things better, no matter who was at fault, him or me! I don't think blame is productive here, rather a willingness on both parts to work together is what is and was needed, and surely lacking. <P>Your pointing out my faults is fine, I can accept that. But I have already begun to look at and work on my faults on my own. Where and when does H start to work with me on the mutual faults that harm our relationship?! <P>Thank you. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>between,<P>You said a couple of things that interest me. First, have you always run your H's life?? Second, if go back and reread what you have written, there is a strong element of control in your discussion of your H. You also mention that he does indeed fight your control; won't take anti-D's because you him want to, won't clean up the house because you hound him, etc. I get the feeling that although he is the stay at home partner here, he has to meet your standards or he hears about it.<P>Now if I tried that with my W, she would do exactly the same thing. Her actions would be" "fine do it yourself and shut up." We have a very clear division of responsibility and the other doesn't intrude on it. It is hard sometimes not to say something, but over the years it has proven to work well. <P>I suspect your H having lost his job and become a "Domestic God" deeply resents your sort of piling on him about how he does things. As you point out, you are prone to use the YOU word rather than the I word. So he loses his job, he loses what even you equate to being a good H (the ability to support his family), he takes a position you don't respect (staying home with the children), and then he gets a constant stream of "how to's", "you should of's", "what's wrong with you's" from you.<P>All I can say is that he is a far more patient man than I. Far more.<P>You then said something that really intrigued me: Between, I doubt seriously that you are a whole or complete person. In fact, it would appear that you are a person with some severe issues and one of them is empathy for your H. Now, this lack of empathy may be temporary due to your affair or it is not. However, saying you should have divorced him the first year of marriage, suggests that you never really were much into this marriage save how it benefited you. <P>Further, a woman that has and is having an affair, is not a whole woman. You are trying to fill holes within yourself, and I suspect you were when you married your H. You have found that he cannot fill them, so you are trying someone else.<P>Your last several sentences suggest a very strong need to control. If indeed you both "know" that you are having an affair but you have not admitted to it, then you are using the affair as a club to beat your H down with, and you are cheating your OM as well. You expect H to change because of the affair, but if he does become the man you want him to be, then it is likely he will leave based on your behavior.<P>D&C made a very important comment to you about her wanting her H to become stronger, and then fearing the fact that he had become stronger. I do think you need to examine more closely what you truely want, and how much you do truely control or try to control your H. I see many of his behaviors as a "passive aggressive" fight against your control.<P>Solution is love him and try not to control him. For even your pulling away from him is in fact control. You know you have him by the b---s, and he knows it as well. It would seem you are just playing games, rather than facing up to yourself and him. The best time to tell him about the affair is NOW. Not when it is tactically best for you.<P>Again, I do hope that something I have said makes you view things from a different perspective.<P>God Bless,<P>JL</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><p>[This message has been edited by BtwnRockandHardPlace (edited August 29, 2001).]

Between,<P>You said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> HMMMMM, all good points. I need to read your post and re-read it a few times. You are speaking truth here. I don't deny my issues [control issues, etc.] and I am working on it all. Maybe I am playing games unwittingly. Not<BR>my intention, I suppose it's learned behavior from my first family. I am working hard to change myself. I know I am<BR>not a whole person, and do NOT deny that one bit. Still trying to learn here. Thank you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think you have it. You don't intend to play games but in a sense you are. You are holding your H to a higher standard than you hold yourself on many of these issues.<P>Interestingly, when I read your posts and look at your logon name, I smile. Because it would seem that your H is the one that is "between the rock and the hard place."<P>You are feeling more powerful (job, bringing in the money), OM is filling your needs for sex, it is exciting sex because of the illicit nature of it, your H is now the baby sitter, and housekeeper???. Sounds like a pretty good deal doesn't it?<P>But, you are here and that suggests to me that you KNOW that this isn't such a great deal and that you have at least as much to lose as to gain by your behavior. <P>I have no doubt that you do have issues from your upbringing. I wouldn't be surprised to hear your H does as well. Although it sounds as if his family is reasonably successful and his older brother is, somehow he fell through the cracks. Could be he never learned some of the skills necessary to become the success you would like.<P>However, I would like to offer you something to think about. Many years ago, when I was in graduate school, I used to attend a small church where after the services people would gather for coffee and discuss with the minister their thoughts on his sermon of the day. This was really fun and quite eye opening to me. Deep philosophical discussion are something I do enjoy. <P>However, one day I was talking to the minister about how some people seemed to have to work hard and did, while others didn't seem to and were in fact more than happy to receive welfare. His response to me changed my life.<P>He said that what I didn't realize was that the ABILITY to work hard, to focus on things and accomplish things was indeed a gift from God. That I shouldn't think of the hours I worked as a penalty but rather as a gift. That when ever possible I should share the bounty from my gift with others.<P>As I have gotten older, and have had problems with focus and concentration, I have come to realize the wisdom of his words. I have been and indeed still am very gifted, I can and do work long hours because I can indeed do it. I have done that for decades on end.<P>What does this have to do with you? It seems to me you view yourself as a victim of this "terrible" marriage. Yet, I see that you are the one "gifted". You are keeping score as if your H is gaining points on you, when in fact you need to be giving points to him. You have the gift, he does not. He has to face the fact that he is not as gifted in many ways as his brother, and he has had to hear from his parents, his brother, and you how he comes up short.<P>Perhaps, Between, you need to step back and see where you can help him do the things well that he can do well. Perhaps, rather than control him, you should stand beside him and lead your life with him. Perhaps, if you do, he will seek medical attention for his depression, perhaps his sex drive will return when confronted with a woman that wants him to succeed but will accept who he really is. Perhaps if he is accepted by you he will quit the passive aggressive behavior and do a better job of parenting.<P>But even if all of this comes to pass, Between, you need to understand he will not do things the WAY you would do them. What matters is that he does them, not how.<P>Now having said all of this, it is worth you looking inside yourself to see what "gifts" you truely bring to this marriage, and give your bounty to the marriage. I suspect you haven't looked at things this way. It is time you realize that "No one leads their life the way you would lead it for them." <P>Something else to think about.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Between,<P> Would you consider telling your H that the marriage has problems and pointing him to this site? Or maybe another one somewhere that isn't necessarily about As? <P> Maybe telling him that as far as you are concerned your marriage has a limited amount of time before it ends if things do not get better? <P> I am actually torn between telling of the A right now or keeping it secret. I look back and sometimes think that if my W had decided to end the A on her own and work on us, maybe I would have been better off having not known. I don't know since that wasn't how it went down. She had no reason to want to end the A until after I found out. Kind of a dark horse to ride I suppose.<P> I wish you luck.<P> jd

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>What does this have to do with you? It seems to me you view yourself as a victim of this "terrible" marriage. Yet, I see that you are the one "gifted". You are keeping score as if your H is gaining points on you, when in fact you need to be giving points to him. You have the gift, he does not. He has to face the fact that he is not as gifted in many ways as his brother, and he has had to hear from his parents, his brother, and you how he comes up short.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again JL, I have a REAL problem with you telling me how *I* view myself. Mainly cuz you don't get it and don't see it. *I* am NOT a victim, I am NOT keeping score, and *I* know *I* have wonderful gifts given to me in that I am smart, can do alot in a little bit of time to make work look easy. I don't feel my husband is the things you said *I* think about him, you don't see the big picture. I have always supported his efforts to be and do whatever it is that makes him happy. I have always told him "I don't care if you sell hotdogs on the corner, if it makes you HAPPY." Before we married I said "I'd live in a cardboard box with you." He insisted we wait until we had money. I waited EIGHT years to marry. *I* am a patient woman!! <P>No matter what he has done with himself, he has never been happy! To me success is not a big car, big job, a big house. Success is happiness from within. I am happy with myself. I am happy when alone with my OM, I am happy with my kids and my job, and my achievements. NO ONE gave me the happiness or the achievements. I worked for them!! <P>I don't want or expect anything for my husband except good things. Read what YOU have written. You have accused me of being a controlling, criticizing, overmanipulative, demanding, and selfish woman. YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ME!! I want my husband to be happy, and healthy, in his life, in our marriage, as a father, as a husband. *I* have been a patient woman! He has never been happy, for 20 yrs that I know him. He brings me down when I am up. If I try to bring him up when he's down, he gets annoyed at me. I GAVE UP trying. <P>If he choose to never work again and be a stay-at-home parent, and he was HAPPY doing it, that would be GREAT. I encouraged him to stay with the kids, to be 'the best husband and father you can be' to make that his "life career" I told him "what can be more special, wonderful and fullfilling than to be a homemaker and fulltime parent?" - and maybe he is being the best he can be at this moment. I never viewed being a stay-at-home parent as less than what I do. I would loved to have been the stay-at-home-parent, but it worked out this way. HOWEVER - he is obviously NOT happy. I see that he can be successful in his life, that's the part that hurts and makes me [and his family] angry. His mother gave me his gradeschool report cards as 'keepsakes'. All the comments from teachers read 'not working up to potential' - that says it in a nutshell. <P><B>[/Quote]Perhaps, Between, you need to step back and see where you can help him do the things well that he can do well. Perhaps, rather than control him, you should stand beside him and lead your life with him. Perhaps, if you do, he will seek medical attention for his depression, perhaps his sex drive will return when confronted with a woman that wants him to succeed but will accept who he really is. Perhaps if he is accepted by you he will quit the passive aggressive behavior and do a better job of parenting.</B>[/Quote]<P>Step back I will, I have done all I can to help him. Now its time to be hands-off and let him help himself! <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But even if all of this comes to pass, Between, you need to understand he will not do things the WAY you would do them. What matters is that he does them, not how.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>YES! that he does them! not HOW-its all I ask...I am looking at a man who couldn't even get out of the bed to do anything at some points in his life. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? I do not say to him 'you missed a spot cleaning?' or 'why didn't you do the laundry AND the dishes today?' or 'why is there NO dinner on the table?' - I come home and say "how was your day? what did the kids do today? did [our son] behave?" and with that, he takes it as I am criticizing him. If I say "how do you feel today?" - that's a negative comment. If I say "isn't it a nice day?" I get "what's nice about it?" I see a man who pouts, frowns, broods, and grimaces. *I* have been patient, and I certainly have not caused this in him.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now having said all of this, it is worth you looking inside yourself to see what "gifts" you truely bring to this marriage, and give your bounty to the marriage. I suspect you haven't looked at things this way. It is time you realize that "No one leads their life the way you would lead it for them." <P>Something else to think about.<P>God Bless,<P>JL</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>JL - we are going in circles here. YES YES YES. I can't fix him, I can't run his life, I can't tell him HOW to run it. I acknowledge all of that. Thank you. Bottom line, I want to be happy, and I want HIM to be happy. If that is married to me, or NOT than so be it. Maybe he and I just don't belong together. Period. Maybe we do, I don't know. I am trying to figure that out. So many people I know who have divorced get along so much better afterwards. It seems the separation and end of their marriage was a GOOD thing for them. Can it be for us? I don't know, only trying it would tell us. Maybe we just need to separate for a while and work out our issues apart, then get back together later and try it again, hopefully as two new people. I DON'T KNOW!!

Thanks JD<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jdmac1:<BR><B> Between,<P> Would you consider telling your H that the marriage has problems and pointing him to this site? Or maybe another one somewhere that isn't necessarily about As? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have done that [with books, not online, he does not use computers]. Including begging him to come to the marriage counselor more than once, he says 1 of 2 things at these times. Either 1. he's happy, there are no issues, or 2. we can work it out ourselves, then we distance and nothing changes. That is until recently, when another man kissed me, and I made some personal changes [after reading more and more and more]. Things are starting to change here slowly [some progress is better than none, and speed is not the issue]. It's hard for me sometimes because of a comment he made of another couple, which hit a note regarding US. He said "Mary and John will never divorce, because she needs him. She will manipulate him to stay." I wonder at times if that is what he is doing with me. <P> <B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Maybe telling him that as far as you are concerned your marriage has a limited amount of time before it ends if things do not get better? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This has been stated in some subtle ways and it's out in the open. We actually had a VERY open discussion about how we would live if we got divorced. There is only one unspoken non-secret here, the A. The rest is totally out in the open. <P> <B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am actually torn between telling of the A right now or keeping it secret. I look back and sometimes think that if my W had decided to end the A on her own and work on us, maybe I would have been better off having not known. I don't know since that wasn't how it went down. She had no reason to want to end the A until after I found out. Kind of a dark horse to ride I suppose.<P> I wish you luck.<P> jd</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My thoughts as well. Why hurt him deeply with the truth that he already is aware of? If you gave her a reason to end the A - like an improved marriage where you two met each other's needs, I suspect she would have ended the A herself at some point. I believe if I had my needs met at home, I would definately end my A at once. And MM would understand and accept it as well. <P>Peace and Thank you. <P>

Between,<P>You said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I come home and say "how was your day? what did the kids do today? did [our son] behave?" and with that, he takes it as I am criticizing him. If I say "how do you feel today?" - that's a negative comment. If I say "isn't it a nice day?" I get "what's nice about it?" I see a man who pouts, frowns, broods, and grimaces. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I didn't say you caused this in him. But have you asked him why he feels you are criticizing him with these comments?<P>Between, I know better than agrue with someone in the midst of an affair. <P>You are very right about many things I don't see, but I do read well, and I have been reading what you have been posting. And I have responded to what you have written.<P>What you have to decide is if you want this marriage to work or not. As the person having the affair, this choice is uniquely yours, for no matter what your H did or didn't do, your affair is not justified. That much I do know, and there is no quibbling about that fact.<P>Your H and you created the marriage you are running away from. You need, as does he, to decide if you want to remain married. If you don't then get the divorce because what you are doing now isn't going to really work. And as for divorced couples being happier, don't bet on it. Their children suffer, and that can carry on for generations.<P>I know you realize there is no free lunch here. I know you are frustrated because you know what you are doing is wrong, and yet you don't want to end the marriage. I realize that it is easier to list all of the failings of your H, than the good parts. All of this is pretty normal.<P>What I have attempted to do is change your perspective, have you see things differently. By doing so perhaps you will see the possibilities for success and not the inevitability of failure.<P>Hopefully, someone will join this discussion that will be more "in tune" with you. Then you will get what you are seeking here, unless of course it is validation of your affair. I doubt that anyone here will post that your affair is the right thing to do.<P>As for telling you how you think, I would not presume to do that. What your reading is my way of discussing something that you haven't articulated very well yet. It is probably my lack of ability that makes me fail to see some of your points. Hopefully, someone will come along more accomplished at this.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>Hopefully, someone will join this discussion that will be more "in tune" with you. Then you will get what you are seeking here, unless of course it is validation of your affair. I doubt that anyone here will post that your affair is the right thing to do.<P>As for telling you how you think, I would not presume to do that. What your reading is my way of discussing something that you haven't articulated very well yet. It is probably my lack of ability that makes me fail to see some of your points. Hopefully, someone will come along more accomplished at this.<P>God Bless,<P>JL</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OK - I see you are 'just learning' LOL, so am I. I know your intentions are honorable. I know my affair is wrong, not justifiable, and I am NOT seeking validation for that. Thank you for all your posts. Really, I do appreciate them!

Dear Between:<P>I hear your frustration in every line you write. Relax and take a deep breath. Better now? Good.<P>I have a few questions for you.<P>1) Have you discussed your new strategy of not fixing your H with him (i.e. giving up on making him anything)? If not please do I think it would be helpful. This will put the emphasis on him to create himself. If you want to do it tell him you will help if asked.<P>2) I do not think it is unreasonable to expect certain things to be done by a stay at home spouse. Can you ask him what he thinks is reasonable.<P>Once you have done 1 & 2 (small start I know), do not say anything else about it. When he does it say good job and thanks. If he doesn't just let it go don't fight about it.<BR>I am just trying to jump start him here and it removes you from being controlling to him he agreed to it.<P>If this succeeds and adds to the removal of the toupe the exercising maybe he will want to add more to the list.<P>I know this seems manipulative but based on your writings everything else has failed.<P>As regards telling about the affair, I do believe in honesty it is one of the major reasons I couldn't have an affair myself, however with the bad temper and the depression I am not sure this is the best time. <P>I know this is simplistic and a bit like Pavloff's (sp?) dogs but any port in the storm.<P>I am just throwing out ideas. If you have tried them I am sorry.<P>Good luck to you.<p>[This message has been edited by willmakeitwork (edited August 29, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by willmakeitwork:<BR><B>Dear Between:<P>I hear your frustration in every line you write. Relax and take a deep breath. Better now? Good.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks Will, better now then not then yes then no. This is a hard roller-coaster to ride. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><P>I have a few questions for you.<P>1) Have you discussed your new strategy of not fixing your H with him (i.e. giving up on making him anything)? If not please do I think it would be helpful. This will put the emphasis on him to create himself. If you want to do it tell him you will help if asked.)</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well - Yes. But the thing is he felt *I* was the only one unhappy so *I* an the only one who needs fixing [or counseling]. He says he's happy so its all my problem. Maybe that's true, but if we are married, doesn't that make it OUR problem?<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>2) I do not think it is unreasonable to expect certain things to be done by a stay at home spouse. Can you ask him what he thinks is reasonable.)</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We once discussed that, he said he felt he takes advantage of me, not doing enough around the house etc. I said I didn't care if we had intimacy in our marriage, that ended the conversation real fast! <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Once you have done 1 & 2 (small start I know), do not say anything else about it. When he does it say good job and thanks. If he doesn't just let it go don't fight about it.<BR>I am just trying to jump start him here and it removes you from being controlling to him he agreed to it.)</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yep, its what I do now. Has helped a bit, I guess it takes time! <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>As regards telling about the affair, I do believe in honesty it is one of the major reasons I couldn't have an affair myself, however with the bad temper and the depression I am not sure this is the best time. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree, and someday I will tell, but not now. Its not for MY needs - but for the family actually. I don't think anyone is ready for me to drop such a bomb at this point. The time will be when we work things out a bit more, and we get closer. Once I feel we can communicate safely, w/o hostility, I will tell him. Not until that time however.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I know this is simplistic and a bit like Pavloff's (sp?) dogs but any port in the storm.<P>I am just throwing out ideas. If you have tried them I am sorry.<P>Good luck to you.<P>[This message has been edited by willmakeitwork (edited August 29, 2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you again Will, and all. Enjoy the holiday weekend! <p>[This message has been edited by BtwnRockandHardPlace (edited September 02, 2001).]