I am in a 20 yr relationship with my husband [12 married] with 2 kids. The entire relationship has been very polarized with me overfunctioning and him underfunctioning. It got REALLY bad two years ago when he lost his job of 10 yrs and turned 40...after that he couldn't keep a new job, bounced around from job to job for a while until finally I suggested he be a stay at home dad [big mistake!]. When our daughter came, the issues only got worse and worse, our sex life [which was never great] diminished to nothingness. I felt lonely, rejected, used, and unloved, and began an affair. Now, 6 months into it, I find my lover and I are MADLY in love with each other. I still care about my husband, and love him [like a brother more or less] and we have two wonderful kids. <P>My husband is not abusive, he's more of just an 'underachiever'. I have been codependent on his underfunctioning for many years, and see that now. I am as much to blame for how things are as he is. Thing is I begged him for years to get couseling with me, he refuses. I read all these self help books, and asked him to do so as well, and do the exercises. He refuses. It's why I sorta 'gave up' and went to an affair. I didn't want a divorce, but felt I needed some TLC. Now, I am stuck. <P>Should I let him go? My lover is my friend, but not going to be my next husband, I can see that. What should I do? I still continue to work on myself, and my marriage and my relationship issues [which I know I will always have with any man!] - Although H is trying to work on his own issues in his own way, I think we need professional help. But for me the fact that my husband does not want to get professional help, is hard to take. What would you do if you were me?? [I know this is not the whole picture, but best I can do here.]...

Does your H know about your A? If so, I feel you are right, the only way to work on your marriage and heal both of you is to get outside help. Also, read (and ask your H to read if he will) Surviving an Affair. It is helpful to both spouses in this situation. You are courageous to come here and admit to things. Only you will know whether you want to give your marriage all you can before giving up. Keep reading and posting here. There is a lot of help.

BRAHP,<BR>Maybe you should try the Emotional Needs Questionar, See what needs you both are laking for eachother. I think you should tell your H of the A and start a new begging with him. It's not fair to him if you don't tell him, then offer counseling as a way to help him, you and your marriage. It's not fair to your kids if you don't try keep your marriage togehter. IMO, It sounds like you both are lacking in eachother's needs, and your affair was a big wake up call. <BR>Maybe you can make a list of all the things you like and love about your H. You've been in a 20 yr relationship with your H and I can't imagine you wanting to throw it all away. You must have good memories, and feelings of him?<P>I am the WS, and I can tell you, it is the worse pain, hurting the man you love more than life itself!<BR>Think good and hard about how you would feel if he did it to you. Then think about why you love him. Good Luck, Sherry

Dear Between:<P>Are you in counselling yourself? That may be a good thing for you to look at. It will help you get a third party perspective on your issues and situation.<P>You may also be able to get your H involved when he sees some positive results from your sessions.<P>It must be terribly difficult to see the proper steps when you are pulled on opposite directions OM and H. I feel your pain. IMHO it is usually best to get rid of one of the items pulling you, as difficult as this may sound and since you see no future with OM and you do have history and children, why not OM? Then tell H the real danger your M is in so that together you can focus your energies on counselling and the marriage.<P>My best to you and yours.

Thank you. He does NOT know about the affair, and I hope he never does. It would be very painful for him, and I am terrified of his reaction [he has a bad temper]. I did the Emotional Needs Questionarre alone, he refused to participate, he said it's all 'common sense'. I do want to work on our relationship, or I wouldn't be here. <P>Small steps toward change are what it takes. I am still trying hard to work on my own steps towards change. We have always had a polarized relationship, with me overfunctioning and him underfunctioning. I have been codependent on his underfunctioning for many years, and see that now. I am as much to blame for how things are as he is. He won't go to counseling, I am sure of that. I have set a 'bottom line' limit. He doesn't know it, because if he did, it would only serve to reactivate his passive-aggressive behavior [which we have seemed to been able to quell for now]. Although I have honestly discussed my feelings with him regarding a possible divorce/separation, I didn't put the time limit in his face. <P>The limit is 1 yr. from our next [13th] wedding anniversary - Sept. 2002. By that time, our son will be in a full day of school, aftercare is $150 a month for 3-6pm [can't get it while he's on half days in Kindergarten]. The baby will be 2, and walking and talking, and I will feel OK putting her in fulltime daycare. I have spoken to him about getting a job, part time now, and then going to fulltime next fall. Over the next year, I plan to continue to work on my behavior and expressing more of myself in our relationship [I always let him have his way, and hence the spiraling down of our relationship]. As I work to become more autonomous, either he will also, or he will be asked to leave. <P>Change is painful for all parties involved. But so is living in a stuck relationship. Ours has been stuck for way too long. I am going to do what I can to be the catalyst of change. One way or another, our relationship is going to change, be it together, or sadly, separately. Time will tell. Thank you for your support. I appreciate it very much. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Keep Smiling:<BR><B>BRAHP,<BR>Maybe you should try the Emotional Needs Questionar, See what needs you both are laking for eachother. I think you should tell your H of the A and start a new begging with him. It's not fair to him if you don't tell him, then offer counseling as a way to help him, you and your marriage. It's not fair to your kids if you don't try keep your marriage togehter. IMO, It sounds like you both are lacking in eachother's needs, and your affair was a big wake up call. <P>Maybe you can make a list of all the things you like and love about your H. You've been in a 20 yr relationship with your H and I can't imagine you wanting to throw it all away. You must have good memories, and feelings of him?<P>I am the WS, and I can tell you, it is the worse pain, hurting the man you love more than life itself!<BR>Think good and hard about how you would feel if he did it to you. Then think about why you love him. Good Luck, Sherry</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

I am in counseling! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by willmakeitwork:<BR><B>Dear Between:<P>Are you in counselling yourself? That may be a good thing for you to look at. It will help you get a third party perspective on your issues and situation.<P>You may also be able to get your H involved when he sees some positive results from your sessions.<P>It must be terribly difficult to see the proper steps when you are pulled on opposite directions OM and H. I feel your pain. IMHO it is usually best to get rid of one of the items pulling you, as difficult as this may sound and since you see no future with OM and you do have history and children, why not OM? Then tell H the real danger your M is in so that together you can focus your energies on counselling and the marriage.<P>My best to you and yours.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

BRAHP,<BR>I think that if you want to marrige to survive you need to tell him, MAybe then he will understand why it's so important that he does fulfill your needs and why counseling is important to keep things together.<BR>I never did tell my H, He found out on his own. And I'm happy that he did cause we both agree we were headed down the ending path of marriage, where as now we have a hard bumpy road of recovery but we can last an eternal life together with no secretes, no bonds, no bad ties, just us as a team. Good luck, Sherry

Dear Between:<P>I appears I offended you. For that I apologize, I thought from your original post "I think we need professional help. But for me the fact that my husband does not want to get professional help, is hard to take" you were not in counselling.<P>I agree that a part time job moving toward a full time job is a good idea (give that the kids are taken care of). As an underacheiver and passive agressive person does he have self esteem issues? Can a program of self improvement through excersize etc. be discussed? <P>Any way good luck to you.

OH NO, sorry if you think you offended me. You did not. He has self esteem issues, the first step HE took, which I begged him to do for many years. He took off the awful toupe he had for 7 years and shaved his head. It took GUTS and I am very proud of him [and he looks great too]! He is also trying to get back into his exercise program, he used to weight lift, but now has gone to pot. He IS trying in his own way. I do wish he'd come to counseling with me, but he is not a very open talkative person. I guess it scares him. <P>We have some serious issues in the bedroom. It's not open been for discussion, that I have tried, and it's why I started the marriage counseling. I am learning to ask questions, and it's a skill. There is a line where any questioning can take on blaming, diagnostic, or an overfunctioning tone. It's not easy to communicate in a non-reactive way over a hot issue! <P>I'm taking a new approach, and that is letting him run his own life, instead of me [or anyone else for that matter-his family does the same, everyone tries to run his life]. We can not change or fix him, nor do we know what's best for him. He needs space to grow on his own, and time<BR>[with a limit for my own self preservation], and I need to adjust to not be reactive to him or to sacrifice myself in the relationship. We just need to care about him, and keep in touch emotionally. Does that make sense? The work<BR>I am doing here will always be 'in progress' and that is true if we remain married or not, because we will always be connected in some way emotionally. Period.<P>That doesn't mean I am not scared to death! I AM!!! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by willmakeitwork:<BR><B>Dear Between:<P>I appears I offended you. For that I apologize, I thought from your original post "I think we need professional help. But for me the fact that my husband does not want to get professional help, is hard to take" you were not in counselling.<P>I agree that a part time job moving toward a full time job is a good idea (give that the kids are taken care of). As an underacheiver and passive agressive person does he have self esteem issues? Can a program of self improvement through excersize etc. be discussed? <P>Any way good luck to you.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Between,<P>What I am going to say is going to sound like I am landing on your pretty hard. It is not my intention to make you mad but it is my intention to make you stop and look at a few things much differently. I am going to do this because I think that there is a very good chance for your marriage to survive, BUT YOU are going to have to take some responsibility. You are going to have to prioritize things differently.<P>Permit me to make the following observations.<P>1. You will accept responsibility for your H's "underacheiving" because you abetted it. However, all else wrong in the marriage is his fault. This is the impression you leave.<P>2. You view his lack of willingness to obtain counseling as a far worse thing than the affair you are having. THat is why you are giving him a year to straighten out, although he doesn't know the marriage is now on the clock and will end if his mind reading skills don't improve.<P>3. You make judgements about how he will react to knowing about the affair, assuming that he will handle it badly (who handles such devastating news well???). Yet, you assume that breaking up the family will go smoothly with the children going into daycare. You also assume that you will get custody of the children, when in fact your H is very likely to since he is the care provider for the children.<P>4. Your judgement of his acheivements are very interesting. If you were the male and he the female, no one on this board would accept your judgements. Women are allowed to "underachieve" and nuture and raise children, but I guess men are not.<P>Between, I think that you need a period of serious soul searching. You are having an affair, your H is taking care of the children, and you think that you are "OVERACHEIVING". Dear lady, I think you have a few things backwards and a few others completely screwed up.<P>You do hold the future of your marriage in your hand, not your H. You have been cheating on him, lying to him, and belittling his contributions to the family. <P>You stated: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I felt lonely, rejected, used, and unloved, and began an affair. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I can only imagine how well you H feels given your justifications.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now, 6 months into it, I find my lover and I are MADLY in love with each other. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This statement suggests that you, like most Wayward Spouses, are rewriting history to justify something you know to be terribly wrong. Also this often means that your H can do nothing right, and your post surely suggests that you have reached this state, known around here as the "fog".<P>Between, before you start issuing secret deadlines, and belittling your H further let me recommend you do two things.<P>1. End the affair.<P>2. Tell your H about it. It may end your marriage or it may make it much better.<P>If you choose to use the tools available to you on this site the odds are high that the marriage will become much better. But it will only happen when you change your situation, your level of honesty, and your attitude. If you don't the marriage is toast and no amount of counseling on your H's part will be able to save it.<P>Please read this carefully, you can only change yourself. And there is plenty to work there without worrying about what your H has or has not done. So start with you, read books such as His Needs Her Needs and particularly Surviving an Affair, both by Harley. THen ask lots of questions, and if you are inclinde prayer would certainly help.<P>Hope something I have said strikes a cord with you.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Dear Between:<P>Ah the classic email problem misinterpretation of puncuation etc. <P>I know he will not fill out the EN questionaire (big mistake), but what you discribe building yourself up to be the best you can be and trying to meet the EN's of the spouse you can identify is the essence of a Plan A.<P>Funny, I am both a bald man (come from a family of bald men so no toupes or combing over a flip allowed) and a powerlifter. I find not training to be emotionally draining and detrimental to my self esteem.<P>I am just throwing out ideas here but does anyone in his family notice any of these problems (I know you said they are also enablers of underacheiving)? If so can some type of intervention be arranged with that family member? This will take you out of the bad guy role. I just strongly feel that councelling would be so benefical to him and help meet your timeline.<P>You are right the only person you can change is you. He must be the master of his own changes. Is he really aware of the seriousness of making these changes and what they mean to the survival of your marriage? There are many on these boards that have found an A to be the wake up call for everyone to get off their rears and get to work.<P>This is an MB board though so I have to say to you that being madly in love with the OM and keeping contact with him will make it extremely difficult to work on your marriage. Any positive changes your H makes will be more difficult to appreciate. I am making an assumption (not always wise) that you are here because the marriage is very important to you.<P>These are just food for thought.<P>I pray you and your family get everything you want.<P>Please keep posting here. There are some very wise people that have walked in your shoes and been successful in restoring their marriages. Do a search on SKM and Kyrah (SP).<p>[This message has been edited by willmakeitwork (edited August 27, 2001).]

I totally agree with Justlearning. I am the spouse that was chosen to stay home with the kids, and my H decided that I wasn't "contributing" enough. He felt used, rejected, unloved, etc. The same feelings that you have felt. I want you to realize that if someone in the family (either H or you) can stay home with the children that you are truly BLESSED! Alot of families cannot afford to do that. Your children are in a critical stage now. Personalities being formed, etc. Thank God that your H is able to stay home and be with them. <P>You cannot imagine the "hurt" that will happen when your H finds out about the affair. It is the most painful experience that can ever happen. Don't you know that ANY man can "tell you the things that you want to hear" as long as they don't have to come home to you, have children with you, pay bills with you, etc. You are giving the OM all the best of you---the positive side. Can you imagine how that will feel to your H? When you cheat, you not only cheat on your H, you cheat on your kids, too. Aren't they worth more than that??<P>I know that things happen, but GET out of the affair quickly!!!!! You made a promise before GOD. An affair is NOT pleasing in His sight. Pray, and ask for forgiveness, from God and your H. Your marriage CAN be everything you want it to be, and more, if you only let God be your guide. <P>I will say a prayer for you and your family!!<P>God bless--<BR>Faith n Him

Vent, Vent, Vent.<P> My advice is to be honest with your H. Don't end the A if you do not want to end it. But BE HONEST WITH H. <P> What others have said is true. How will yor husband EVER measure up to your expectations if you are still having an A?<BR>I'll answer that for you....HE CAN'T! Nothing he does will be good enough.<P> jd<BR>

Well, thank you for your reply. I appreciate your comments while I do feel they come with a judgemental tone and some overreacting to my situation maybe from your own personal hot issues being lit by my story. I suppose I invited that when I requested advice in an open forum. <P>I would like to make some comments:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>Between,<P>What I am going to say is going to sound like I am landing on your pretty hard. It is not my intention to make you mad but it is my intention to make you stop and look at a few things much differently. I am going to do this because I think that there is a very good chance for your marriage to survive, BUT YOU are going to have to take some responsibility. You are going to have to prioritize things differently.<P>Permit me to make the following observations.<P>1. You will accept responsibility for your H's "underacheiving" because you abetted it. However, all else wrong in the marriage is his fault. This is the impression you leave.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>I did not say all else was his fault, nor that I was an 'overachiever' but rather an 'overfunctioning' person in our relationship. It maybe semantics, but when one overfunctions, its a method of coping with stress often learned from previous family relationships. It is not healthy necessarily, but it is also normal. Its one of the ways humans react to extreme stress. We both need to do some work here. I feel that his not being willing to get professional counseling is a refusal to try. I maybe wrong here, but its how it feels to me. Maybe it's just not his way to work things out, and I need to give him the benefit of the doubt because he has indeed made some changes already!<P>I am not sure you noticed, but I am taking responsibility here. Maybe it does not appear that I am taking as much responsibility as you would like to see. However at this point I am owning up to the responsibility that I am able to see and handle emotionally, and all the while I continue my 'soul searching' which I have been doing. I am sure I will eventually reveal to myself more and more of where I am responsible in my marriage for the big picture. <P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>2. You view his lack of willingness to obtain counseling as a far worse thing than the affair you are having. THat is why you are giving him a year to straighten out, although he doesn't know the marriage is now on the clock and will end if his mind reading skills don't improve.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Did I say that? I find it hard to accept that you are telling me what I think and feel. I said I am setting limits, this is for my own self preservation. He does know the marriage needs work - from both sides, as I have communicated that to him clearly. The time limit has been stated in some ways but not in an intimidating manner [like if you don't get a job by X date, yer outa here!] Also, what I did not say, is if the time limit date arrives and I still don't feel right about ending it, I will make a new time limit. Life is good like that, we can change our minds and set new goals all the time.<P>I am also trying to change myself. But with him not working to help support the family, and many days he drops the kids off at his parents house and goes out to eat with a friend [which we can't affort], or he stays in and watches Jerry Springer on TV while the laundry is overflowing and the house a mess, he watches TV for hours on end while I end up taking care of the kids alone after working all day [and no dinner, he wants me to cook or order out], and I am being ignored for the TV or his friend, weekdays he sleeps in and lets the baby cry, on weekends he's offduty - sleeps til 10am, but I work 7 days a week and get up 7am or earlier all 7 days, he refuses to make love, doesn't bathe or brush is teeth, etc. etc. etc. I *still* have not painted a total picture here yet, and I do feel its not fair to judge the situation as you have done on this forum with only partial information. If you walk in my shoes, then you can judge! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>3. You make judgements about how he will react to knowing about the affair, assuming that he will handle it badly (who handles such devastating news well???). Yet, you assume that breaking up the family will go smoothly with the children going into daycare. You also assume that you will get custody of the children, when in fact your H is very likely to since he is the care provider for the children.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My 'judgements' are based on past experiences with him. Its more of an expectation of how he will react, than a judgement. I never told you I assume I will get custody of the children, although you maybe felt I inferred that. If he gets the kids, that's ok. I thought I said we would have joint custody. I assume that is what will happen. If he is working, and I am working, that is usually the case. I hope to see him have a job soon, for his own self esteem if nothing else. I also DO NOT assume breaking up the family will go smoothly. My goodness, the more I read your post the more upsetting it is how you have put words into my mouth and made your own assumptions here. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>4. Your judgement of his acheivements are very interesting. If you were the male and he the female, no one on this board would accept your judgements. Women are allowed to "underachieve" and nuture and raise children, but I guess men are not.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>AGAIN you are misquoting me. I did not say 'underachieve' I said underfunctioning. It is a psychological term, it happens in relationships as a way to protect oneself from emotions which are too hot to handle. People withdraw, cutoff, distance themselves, some overfunction, some underfunction. It is not a criticism, just an observation on our behavior within our relationship, and its all TRUE. It seems maybe I have pushed some hot buttons you have on this issue. Is that possible? I apologize if I have. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Between, I think that you need a period of serious soul searching. You are having an affair, your H is taking care of the children, and you think that you are "OVERACHEIVING". Dear lady, I think you have a few things backwards and a few others completely screwed up.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I appreciate your opinion. However, this is a very loaded and reactive statement which is more hurtful to me than helpful. As I said, it appears that maybe my story has opened up some wounds for you. AGAIN I apologize for that. <BR>As I said I am soul searching. Why do you think I posted here?<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You do hold the future of your marriage in your hand, not your H. You have been cheating on him, lying to him, and belittling his contributions to the family. <P>You stated: This statement suggests that you, like most Wayward Spouses, are rewriting history to justify something you know to be terribly wrong. Also this often means that your H can do nothing right, and your post surely suggests that you have reached this state, known around here as the "fog".<P>Between, before you start issuing secret deadlines, and belittling your H further let me recommend you do two things<BR>1. End the affair.<P>2. Tell your H about it. It may end your marriage or it may make it much better.<P>If you choose to use the tools available to you on this site the odds are high that the marriage will become much better. But it will only happen when you change your situation, your level of honesty, and your attitude. If you don't the marriage is toast and no amount of counseling on your H's part will be able to save it...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Before you start giving this kind of advice, I would ask that you examine your own house. Is it in order? These statements are more hurtful to me than helpful. I don't feel you are in a position to tell me how to run my life. While I do appreciate your sincere attempts at trying to help me. I feel that maybe the reactive position you have taken may be a signal for you as well. I don't know the answers for myself, so I certainly can't give them to you. Just food for thought. I am asking for help, but hoped I would have gotten some people's sharing of pain, fear, and concern in similar situations and not be opened up to anger and criticism. I suppose it is hard not to react to my situation if you also feel pain, and fear in this arena. <BR>I am sorry if I dredged up some difficult feelings.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Please read this carefully, you can only change yourself. And there is plenty to work there without worrying about what your H has or has not done. So start with you, read books such as His Needs Her Needs and particularly Surviving an Affair, both by Harley. THen ask lots of questions, and if you are inclinde prayer would certainly help.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>AH here we do agree. We can only change ourselves. That is what I am trying to do. I have already read the books you mentioned and I do pray. Change is painful for all parties involved. But so is living in a stuck relationship. Ours has been stuck for way too long. I am doing what I<BR>can to be the catalyst of change. One way or another, our relationship is going to change, be it together, or sadly, separately. Time will tell. Thank you for your support. I appreciate it very much. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Hope something I have said strikes a cord with you.<P>God Bless,<P>JL</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>yes, some good, some not so good. I do appreciate that you care enough to write this long and thoughtful post. But as I said before some of it does come with a reactive tone which I find hurtful. To me if we can share calmly with respect for others AND with an understanding that our way may not fit others or work for others, than we are truly sharing from our perspective. I am trying to learn to talk with a self focus, using *I* language, and non-blaming statements about self. Stepping out of overfunctioning does not mean we do not set limits and take a position on emotional issues, which is what I am trying to do.<P>peace to you ...<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by willmakeitwork:<BR><B>Dear Between:<P>Ah the classic email problem misinterpretation of puncuation etc. <P>I know he will not fill out the EN questionaire (big mistake), but what you discribe building yourself up to be the best you can be and trying to meet the EN's of the spouse you can identify is the essence of a Plan A.<P>Funny, I am both a bald man (come from a family of bald men so no toupes or combing over a flip allowed) and a powerlifter. I find not training to be emotionally draining and detrimental to my self esteem.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you! Will, your post has made me feel much better. I did the EN questionarre and learned alot from it. He looks so great w/o the toupe and he has even started lifting again. We are working on communication... this weekend was interesting. He wanted to look at [and eventually buy] a big screen TV. He has had this on his wish list for a loooong time. We have had fights over it repeatedly. We went into Sears Sunday, he headed straight for the TV dept. and picked out a $1300 TV. I waited while he talked to the salesman then walked away calmly. <P>We later talked, he said "I know we don't have the money but..." I was able to calmly tell him "It's not just about the money, its that you ignore me for the TV. Now you want to get a 43" big screen TV and ignore me in surround sound, technicolor, HDTV IGNORE!" I made it a joke, and we laughed over it. But he got to hear my feelings and I am sure he got the point! <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am just throwing out ideas here but does anyone in his family notice any of these problems (I know you said they are also enablers of underacheiving)? If so can some type of intervention be arranged with that family member? This will take you out of the bad guy role. I just strongly feel that councelling would be so benefical to him and help meet your timeline.</B>[QUOTE]<P>His whole family and all our friends see what is going on here. Many have told me its 10% my fault and 90% his, and to leave him. I don't care to hear this, its both our responsibilities to make a marriage work. His father gets angry with him for not doing anything with his life. His brother [who is a lawyer and my H resents him for his success] is always giving me advice on how to change him and force him to get to work. He tells me to kick him out so he can 'grow up'. He tells me to enroll him in classes and 'make him go'. I tell his brother [who obviously just doesn't get it], "I can't do that. I can't MAKE him do anything, and I can't MAKE him change. This is why he is how is he today, because everyone in this family [including me] has tried to run and manage his life for him!"<P><B>[QUOTE]You are right the only person you can change is you. He must be the master of his own changes. Is he really aware of the seriousness of making these changes and what they mean to the survival of your marriage? There are many on these boards that have found an A to be the wake up call for everyone to get off their rears and get to work.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And change I have and will continue to do. I lost 46 lbs. in a year, I left a job of 12 years for a better job [thus allowing him to be a stay at home dad], I started marriage counseling trying to fix the problems here [and begged him to join me]. I know my affair is WRONG, does anyone think I am happy about it? <P>A year and a half ago [long before the affair started] my H was at the door with his suitcase in hand ready to leave [we go thru this alot - he threatens to leave when issues get hot], I called him back. He said to me 'you sound like you want to have an affair'. I said "I DO! - With you! Don't you get it?!?" Well, he didn't get it. My needs were far beyond not being met, our marriage was so far gone it seemed that it would never be recovered. All the time he kept telling me he was 'happy' and *his* needs are all being met by me! So why did he need to see a marriage counselor, the issues are mine not his! I gave up, and started seeing another man to meet my needs. It was painful for me, I don't believe in divorce OR affairs!! <P>My OM has actually HELPED me to regain things in my marraige I thought I would never have again! When I am ready to end it and tell H, it will happen, that time has not arrived yet. Change is a gradual process between both of us, not just one or the other needs to change, it's both. I see that clearly now!! Who knows maybe he will have so much 'self' in a while that he won't even want me anymore. That is possible and if it happens, it is what is needed for him to grow, I will accept it. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This is an MB board though so I have to say to you that being madly in love with the OM and keeping contact with him will make it extremely difficult to work on your marriage. Any positive changes your H makes will be more difficult to appreciate. I am making an assumption (not always wise) that you are here because the marriage is very important to you.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Believe it or not, one of the things I love about OM is that he cares enough about me that he wants to see me happy. Period. Be that with H, or not with H or with someone entirely new [not even him]. Just as long as I feel right about it, and its what I want and need. He is very selfless that way. He has actually advised me on ways to treat my H better and not fight with him! NOW, my H has made some great strides in the past month or so. I DO appreciate and recognize all his efforts to work on our marriage. Why has he started this now? <P>Because my best friend's husband KISSED ME and was seen by someone who told his wife. She in turn called my H and told him. This started a fire of course, we all talked it over [and we are all still friends]. My H realized that things needed to change at home at that point [wake up call]. And we both started some big changes. I am not so sure of my friend and her H [she is having an internet affair of which her H is aware!]. They have to work out their own issues!<P>I am not quite 40 and she is over 40, both our H's are over 40. My counselor said maybe I am having a mid-life crisis [and my H is too]. This seems to happen to a lot of couples in their 40's. We reach the 1/2 way mark in life and wonder if we can and should do things differently before its too late. Hey, we are NORMAL. Not that misery has company is any consolation. ;-)<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>These are just food for thought.<P>I pray you and your family get everything you want.<P>Please keep posting here. There are some very wise people that have walked in your shoes and been successful in restoring their marriages. Do a search on SKM and Kyrah (SP).<P>[This message has been edited by willmakeitwork (edited August 27, 2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>THANK YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE HERE FOR THE SUPPORT!! <BR>

Hey, BRHP: Your post resonated STRONGLY with me, because my H used to be an underachiever too, and I was also codependent on his underfunctioning. Even now that he has caught up in terms of his career, there are things he remains irresponsible about (like cleaning up after himself, organizing his life, keeping from burning the house down with his cigarettes, etc.)<P>I come from a home where I took care of my emotional basketcase of a mother from the time I was 11, and my H played into this need I have to be a caregiver. <P>Problem is, this is a double-edged sword, because there comes a point where the caregiver wants care, and the partner can't give it. My H too refuses things like counseling or anything that might help. So I've had to do it alone.<P>I have not had an affair, though. He has had an EA a few years ago when he felt neglected.<P>At any rate, it's important when trying to change these relationships to realize our own role in keeping the situation as it is. When these men do things that indicate they are gettng stronger, we feel threatened, for all that we want them to change. For me, it's a feeling that ultimately I will be alone and I'm afraid to relinquish any control over my life to another person. My H has just inherited some money, and we will be taking some baby steps towards joint accounts, and I think I'm more scared than he is.<P>It's important to recognize this in ourselves and try to communicate to our spouses when we feel this dynamic happening. I think most of these guys WANT to do better, and they WANT to be more responsible, but we have to help them in a CONSTRUCTIVE way to step up to the plate.

Dear Between:<P>I really feel for you. I obviously only know what I see posted but I can tell what you mean when you say you are overfunctioning (e.g. all you know about friends their lives, family working on H). This is not a flame. It is proof to me of what you say.<P>How are you? Do you just give yourself some down time? No H, No OM and no kids? We all need time just for us.JMHO<P>During this time alone can you think about what YOU want. If you had absolute and total control over everything in your and could make it anything you want, what would this life look like? Is it family w/ H? Life with OM? Even don't know thats OK too. The answers to these questions will help the wheels stop spinning and put the everything you do in proper perspective. "Start with the end in mind".<P>It appears the family has been intervening enough based your comments. Is that a fair assesment?<P>Between, depending on what the answers to the questions are above (and take your time answering them with no influence by anyone except maybe your C), you say something in your last post regarding the push that got your H making inprovements (the kiss). If you feel the marriage is what you want, then I would tell your H about the A. Now hear me out.<P>You H seems somewhat stuck. This is similar to an alcoholic who must hit rock bottom before they can heal themselves. The knowledge of the A may be just the impetus he needs to take the further steps he needs to work on this relationship as a partnership with you. As always, this is JMHO your results may vary.<P>I pray for you and your family. Keep posting and filter what works for you and leave the rest. There is great wisdom and caring here.<P>Please forgive the rambling, I am posting this at work between questions. <BR>

Dear Will,<P>I so appreciate and respect your input. THANK YOU!!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by willmakeitwork:<BR><B>Dear Between:<P>I really feel for you. I obviously only know what I see posted but I can tell what you mean when you say you are overfunctioning (e.g. all you know about friends their lives, family working on H). This is not a flame. It is proof to me of what you say.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Gosh, I don't take it or any comments as 'flames'. Sometimes people come from reactive positions based on their own personal experiences. I don't take that personally [even though it can hurt]. AND you have not done that to me even once! <P><B><P>Here is what I want: I dream of being in love with a man who loves me back. I dream of having a partner who is as crazy about me as I am about him. Who wants to be with me [and the kids], is excited to be in my company [and the kids], who loves to have fun with me [and the kids], and wants to make love OFTEN - show affection, share touches, feelings, thoughts, etc. <P>My H is *not* that person. He hates most of what I mentioned here, acts distant, won't talk much, never says he loves me or the kids, pouts, broods, frowns, and wants to be reclusive. Not just recently either, since the first year we are married! I used to ask him time and again "you want to be alone? please talk to me, I am your wife." He'd reply "it's just how I am!" I'd say "THEN WHY DID YOU MARRY ME!!?!?" We had bitter fights for 12 years over this same issue! I have been in/out of counseling, but alas never brought my marriage up. I always talked about work, my mother, etc. The marriage was too hot an issue for me to cope with until maybe 4 years ago, after our first child. <P>I also now know I need to fill many of my own needs, or else I will overburden my relationship with whomever I end up with [even H]. I am working to increase my self awareness, circle of friends, and go back to my hobbies [which I lost sight of with two kids and a full time job]. But the bottom line is I want a man to share all the things that make my life wonderful. H wants to live in his shell, not go out, not talk, not LIVE. I am ALIVE and want to LIVE and share!! <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It appears the family has been intervening enough based your comments. Is that a fair assesment?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well enough - yes, in the right way - not necessarily. They are in reactive mode. They make comments to me, to convey back to him, they don't talk direclty TO him, they talk ABOUT him. He had said that of me too, and he was right. I told him to his face, "I talk ABOUT you because I can't seem to talk TO you." Still a reactive postion, I realize that now. I have changed that position and I'm working hard to relate directly to H and not via other people. Of course that would be easier with a counselor in the middle, but since he refuses that - I have done my best to work on it with him directly. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Between, depending on what the answers to the questions are above (and take your time answering them with no influence by anyone except maybe your C), you say something in your last post regarding the push that got your H making improvements (the kiss). If you feel the marriage is what you want, then I would tell your H about the A. Now hear me out.<P>Your H seems somewhat stuck. This is similar to an alcoholic who must hit rock bottom before they can heal themselves. The knowledge of the A may be just the impetus he needs to take the further steps he needs to work on this relationship as a partnership with you. As always, this is JMHO your results may vary.[\B][\Quote]<P>YES YES, I have said that myself [re:the alcoholic/rock bottom thing]. It's true. BUT, I am scared to DEATH tho to reveal the affair. I don't want to hurt and embarrass him or the family or the kids. The kiss alone upset him SO much, he was angry for DAYS. I asked him what he would do if I had an affair, he said "I'd throw you and that computer out the window!" I am afraid - really afraid - he would hurt me! He has never hurt me but has in the past thrown things, punched walls, and broken stuff when mad. He does have an awful temper, which he keeps bottled up [along with his other emotions]. He is a pressure cooker just waiting to blow! <P>I am not sure the marriage is what I want. I do want to be married, but I feel he is not ever going to be who I need him to be, and is it fair of me to expect that from him, or try to change him? But alas, we now have two kids. He has his moments when he is a great father, and others when he is not. Like my son says "I love my daddy, except he yells at me." or "Why do you work and daddy doesn't?" or "Why doesn't daddy ever take a bath?" All his own observations, not anything I ever put into his head! I do defend H to my son, but sometimes its not so easy to do. <P>[B][Quote]I pray for you and your family. Keep posting and filter what works for you and leave the rest. There is great wisdom and caring here.<P>Please forgive the rambling, I am posting this at work between questions. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you all again. I do see there is wisdom here, and caring. I accept all your comments and will try my best to sort out what works for me! <BR>

Between,<P>I appreciate your response and it does clear up a few things. Perhaps I should explain a few things. <P>1. I don't judge people and certainly my post was not a judgement, but a statement of what I felt I was reading. That is why I phrased it the way it was phrased. I expected and needed to hear your responses.<P>2. I am not angry at you, nor is anything in your post hitting any buttons for me. Sadly, your situation is all too familiar around here.<P>3. I know your marriage can be saved, but some changes will have to be made.<P>So let me comment on a few things and then offer some suggestions. There are many things I don't know in this world but here are a few that I do know.<P>An affair will destroy a marriage faster that just about anything. And that includes yours despite your protestations about how good and generous man your OM is.<P>The lack of honesty in a marriage will eventually rot the marriage. You finally tell your H about feeling neglected for the TV and he understands, and he doesn't blow up. How many years have you felt this way? You should have been communicating with him long ago. You are not communicating about your year deadline, which has now been restated as a one year reevaluation point. <P>Frankly, if your marriage is so bad, and your H a complete loser, then you should have been honest enough to divorce him rather than do what you are doing now.<P>The most important thing I have come to realize here, is that there are many ways to categorize why marriages fail, but Harley has done a very good job of this. My points above are indeed his points and he has more.<P>Now, reading your follow up post to me and others I would strongly suspect that your H is depressed. Let's see he lost his job of 10 years and couldn't find another one. He turned 40, which as you commented on is the prime age for the dreaded MLC. And his W isn't putting much focus on him or the marriage. <P>You clearly can't be much of a W to him, because of the hours you say you work, the time you spend with the children, the cooking, ect. AND you are having an affair on the side. Doesn't leave a lot of time for marriage building does it? <P>From the sounds of things, your H has his failings, but I am sure he compares himself to his brother and finds himself lacking. <P>In short it would seem first and foremost your H needs to have his depression addressed and that doesn't necessarily take counseling, but a visit to a doctor. You might approach his taking anti-D's very much as if he needed glasses. Neither will change him, but they will sharpen his senses and his ability to function.<P>As for yourself, I think you need to end the affair and tell your H about the affair. If you are not honest with him on this, there is a very low chance that the marriage will ever be better than it is and a high chance it will fail. If you do tell him, you may hear the word divorce, but as Harley points out in most cases the couples don't divorce. Since you are already intertaining the idea of a divorce, then I do think that Harley's "radical honesty" policy is something you should follow.<P>Please do some reading on this topic. It is crucial that you have knowledge of what it takes and the power of it.<P>In summary, it sounds to me like your H's self-esteem is pretty shot, and he is in deep depression about life in general. I sounds from what you have written that you have pretty much hung it up and went off to find a better man. Neither of your actions and particularly yours, since you did this with forethought, is going to help your marriage. More importantly these actions are not going to help your's or your H's future, no matter what happens to the marriage.<P>So please consider ending the affair and being honest with your H. Rather than try to get him into counseling, see if he will see a Dr. about his depression.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

DEar Between:<P>I am sorry your are actually afraid physically about your H's reaction. JL beat me to the punch here. I do believe you H suffers from depression probably long term comapring himself to type A family members. His MD can help him determine if this is the case. Depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain and medication can alleviate this.<P>It is not the same as counselling, it is a physical ailment, so he should be able to make this step. It like seeking medication for an ulcer and there is no longer any stigma attached to it.<P>If this is done the other suggestions you have received here may work and/or if you decide to leave you are leaving a more stable person who is better able to be a father to your children.<P>My best to you.<P><p>[This message has been edited by willmakeitwork (edited August 28, 2001).]